angry_jeremy Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I am under the impression that you can seal huge wood pores (mahoghany, etc) with just the lacquer. Do you put on one or 2 coats and then sand down until just the pores are left with finish, making it look like tons of little shiny spots? Is this the same idea with actual grain filler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Are you looking to avoid using a pore filler because you want something clear/transparent? If so, have you considered using CA glue? I've recently done this (from Drak's suggestion) with my black limba guitar and it worked very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morben Guitars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Jeremy, you can't successfully grainfill with lacquer. Over time the lacquer will continue to shrink/cure and expose the grain. Porefilling is easy - I've been experimenting with a waterbased pore filler (wunderfil) and it works great. No issues so far. It also comes in a wide varity of colors to match your wood if you want it to...however I think a darker filler really brings out the grain. Why try to hide a great piece of wood?! Filling with CA works - but why not just use the intended product! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Jeremy, you can't successfully grainfill with lacquer. Over time the lacquer will continue to shrink/cure and expose the grain. Porefilling is easy - I've been experimenting with a waterbased pore filler (wunderfil) and it works great. No issues so far. It also comes in a wide varity of colors to match your wood if you want it to...however I think a darker filler really brings out the grain. Why try to hide a great piece of wood?! Filling with CA works - but why not just use the intended product! Also, if its available, use the sanding sealer as a "primer", that is recommended by the lacquer manufacturer. It cuts down on filling time, as the sealer has a high solids content, specifically designed for that purpose. CA also works great, but personally i find it a little harder to use, and can be very messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 yes. Morben and Rhoads are right. Unfortunately in my country you can't buy no clear grain filler. I tried Drak's CA method and it works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 yes. Morben and Rhoads are right. Unfortunately in my country you can't buy no clear grain filler. I tried Drak's CA method and it works very well. Would you believe ive not been able to find clear filler either? Sucks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Filling with CA works - but why not just use the intended product! Morben - I used CA because it was suggested by a very reputable member here at projectguitar. I wanted something that could fill pores but not alter the color too much. The suggestions given to me were CA glue, and epoxy if I remember correctly. Since I don't care for working with epoxy all that much, CA was my choice. It is harsh on the eyes if you don't have ventilation but other than that it went quickly and easily. If you have suggestions for a good clear pore filler, please let me know. I think there were others also looking for the same thing a while back. I recently attended a finishing class at WoodCraft and asked about this and didn't get much along the lines of transparent pore fillers. There were plenty of options for colored fillers but no help with transparent. Although I am not a finishing expert - I stand by my recommendation. CA does do a good job if you're after a clear filler. - you just need some ventilation and examine closely after sanding smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Filling with CA works - but why not just use the intended product! Morben - I used CA because it was suggested by a very reputable member here at projectguitar. I wanted something that could fill pores but not alter the color too much. The suggestions given to me were CA glue, and epoxy if I remember correctly. Since I don't care for working with epoxy all that much, CA was my choice. It is harsh on the eyes if you don't have ventilation but other than that it went quickly and easily. If you have suggestions for a good clear pore filler, please let me know. I think there were others also looking for the same thing a while back. I recently attended a finishing class at WoodCraft and asked about this and didn't get much along the lines of transparent pore fillers. There were plenty of options for colored fillers but no help with transparent. Although I am not a finishing expert - I stand by my recommendation. CA does do a good job if you're after a clear filler. - you just need some ventilation and examine closely after sanding smooth. Dave (and drak if your here), do you use accelerator to dry the CA, or let it run its natural cure?? Ive found the acclerator makes it go "milky", although ive just sorted out a solution to this problem, by using the accelerator "fumes" rather than the liquid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Would you believe ive not been able to find clear filler either? Sucks.... I can hear you. I'm tempted to order the Stew Mac filler, but it's so expensive.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I have not tried the accelerator. To be honest, I've been scared away from using it from some comments I read about the way it tends to turn color with certain woods such as maple. I think I remember Scott R. saying he had some maple turn green when spraying the accelerator on so I've just stayed away from it completely. When I did mine, I used "Hot Stuff" in the yellow bottle which I think is called "gap filling". I applied it in small amounts and brushed it with a foam brush. I went through several brushes but they seemed to work better than something like what you would use with a pore filler (plastic applicator) since the glue tends to harden on the plastic and create uneven areas. I may not be making much sense - I think it's one of those things you have to experience to know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Just make sure that you use the super glue in a moisture free area. Super glue takes the moisure really easily and gets hazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morben Guitars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Filling with CA works - but why not just use the intended product! Morben - I used CA because it was suggested by a very reputable member here at projectguitar. I wanted something that could fill pores but not alter the color too much. The suggestions given to me were CA glue, and epoxy if I remember correctly. Since I don't care for working with epoxy all that much, CA was my choice. It is harsh on the eyes if you don't have ventilation but other than that it went quickly and easily. If you have suggestions for a good clear pore filler, please let me know. I think there were others also looking for the same thing a while back. I recently attended a finishing class at WoodCraft and asked about this and didn't get much along the lines of transparent pore fillers. There were plenty of options for colored fillers but no help with transparent. Although I am not a finishing expert - I stand by my recommendation. CA does do a good job if you're after a clear filler. - you just need some ventilation and examine closely after sanding smooth. Dave, You're correct in the fact that there are not many other options for a "clear" filler - It wasn't meant as a slight at it's use for that need.. But lets ask why that would be the case? Afterall, grainfilling has been around far longer than guitar building.. I think it's because a piece of wood that requires grainfilling will have it's beuaty inhanced by the making the grain stand out.. Back in the day they would use pumise in a french polish process to fill the grain. I've yet to find a piece of wood that didn't look better with a grainfiller. I'm well aware that's my opinion - and others may vary. But I do know that after working with a piece of wood for months and turning it into a work of art - we all fall in love with it's appearance. The though of altering that appearnce is often unappealing - heance "I'll keep it clear". I do like that look - but I like the filled look better.. Again, I suggest trying Wunderfil. It's a waterbased woodfiller that you can waterdown and use as a grainfiller. It's not nearly as messy as the oil based fillers, and if you really want a match, they offer it in many colors and you can combine them. http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_detai...ilter=wonderfil I'd be careful using Sanding Sealer as your only filler as well...It has much higher solids content then Nitro, however it will shrink over time. I always use it on top of the filler to seal and give me a level surface to shoot the lacquer on though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I'm probably not following you on this one. If I used a colored filler on my black limba guitar - I think it would look strange. Is that what you meant? The wood just doesn't have a consistent color so I'd have to use something like black I guess. I still think that would look a bit odd. I did not know stewmac sold a clear filler. Maybe I'll try that next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I'd like to hear what Morben has to say about this too. I know he does quality work, so he knows what he's talking about. How much CA glue did your guitar take? Sounds like a good idea, but it seems like it could get expensive. This looks like the best option so far though. Anybody ever used it and want to comment? Looks a lot cheaper than CA, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 CA can get expensive......I buy mine in 8oz bottles from Lone Star Models, in Texas of course(do a Google search to find them).....it is about $16 for the bigger bottle vs @$10 for 2oz bottles from Stew-Mac or other sources......As for curing with the accelerator.....Let it cure naturally.....It will only take about a minute for the thicker stuff...if you spray the accelerator, it can cause a much too rapid cure and "foam-up" into a very hard, white mass which will end up in the pores of the wood making it difficult to remove without a total sand back......Accelerators are available in mild or hot formulations. On Stew-Mac clear grain filler....I have used it with success on some Curly Koa......It is a much more economical and less caustic method.....Some will make the arguement that grainfillers can shrink over time.....some can and do.......The CA will harden like glass and not shrink and will remain clear......where as the clear grain filler is ever-so-slightly cloudy.....although nobody will likely to ever notice it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 It didn't even take a bottle's worth of CA for my limba guitar and neck so don't go away with the impression that it is an expensive method. I didn't check exactly how much it took but I'm pretty sure I still have enough to do another guitar. I guess everyone has their favorite methods. The method that Drak uses works well for me also so I'm probably going to stay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 it seems to work great for drak...i have never seen such glasslike finishes before seeing his work....and i plan on using ca on my neck thru (when i get around to finishing it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I'd be careful using Sanding Sealer as your only filler as well...It has much higher solids content then Nitro, however it will shrink over time. I always use it on top of the filler to seal and give me a level surface to shoot the lacquer on though.. Absolutely, sanding sealer isnt a substitute for grain fillers. Simply a product to assist you obtain a magnificent finish, a little easier, than if you werent using it. A lot of two part lacquers dry hard without a lot of sink back, so sanding sealer isnt always neccessary, although it is easier to sand the finish level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 What sized bottle did you use, Dave? 8oz? Cause I was trying to get a price comparison between StewMac's CA and their clear grainfiller. The CA sounds much more doable at the 8oz price tdog psoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 An 8oz bottle is a lot of CA.....But it can have an almost infinite shelf life if it is kept in the freezer. I've had some of the extra thick CA in the icebox for over 6 years and it still works fine ......the color has shifted to a rose hue though. I think that if you bought the Stew-Mac clear filler, you would have a lot of it for a very long time.......You should most likely be able to fill the grain on at least 3 or 4 guitars with an 8oz bottle of CA, depending on your"slop-factor"!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGM Guitars Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 If you want a real high solid clear filler for endgrain, or even for all over, you can use 2 part epoxy as well, it works fine, you can buy it as a "finishing resin" which is used for laying .7oz fiberglass cloth on model airplanes in prep for paint. The resin itself can be brushed on, left to cure (about 30 hours) and then sanded dead smooth for paint prep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I'll second Jeremy on the epoxy. I've used both epoxy and CA, and prefer the epoxy. I think the results are near identical, but I find the epoxy easier to apply. You get a little more working time, and I use a razor blade with a dulled edge to really squeegie (sp?) the epoxy down into all the pores, then scrape almost back to bare wood, which means less sanding afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morben Guitars Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Here's a picture of a before and after - georgous mahogany, I was hesitant to smear brown goo all over it, but after scraping, drying and sanding - I was stunned how much better the piece looked. Always try it on a scrap, I bet you'll be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdw3332 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Here is a pic of the back of my Spalted Maple project. It is magogany that I filled with Bartley Paste Wood Filler - Natural. It is almost white but looks really good on this particular piece. Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcamp67 Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 If I'm planning on putting a Tung Oil finish on my Mahogany neck, do I need to use a wood filler before putting the oil on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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