doug

I could never really figure out what the shellac coat is for. It almost makes no sense. Both make wonderful sealers and fiber stiffeners, but it just seems like a nice polymerzed blended tung oil should be just fine alone. However, I can see shellac being used to fill grain like French polish. Then again, that defeats the purpose of using oil. Oil doesn't really fill larger grain as others have already identified. There are several varieties of oil based dyes that can be mixed right in the tung oil. They produce translucent color. Yes, they take on that amber too. So blue dye looks greenish (blue+yellow=green). I've used it on toys, clocks, curios, and jewlery boxes for effect. Just remember that it should have many overcoats after the dye stage. -Doug

Sorry, it's the Birchwood-Casey that I referred to. To me it was nasty smelling. Used it a couple more times just to make sure about it, then put it on the shelf and never opened it again. Yeah, I know it's polular so don't be offended. This thread is for voicing experienced opinions afterall. ooten2 mentions build. Well that's another subject. Tung oils (and Danish) are typically made to go into the wood, not on it. Honestly I'm not sure what Tru-Oil is, but it may be a finish that goes on top. As I mentioned earlier, each finish has unique characteristics and purpose. I use tung oil for sealing a wood surface that I want to leave feeling and looking like wood. That means I make no attempt to build anything on the surface any more then it takes to close the pores. Varnish is for surface building. It soaks in some, but mainly it goes on top. It's forgiving and can be applied almost any way you can think of from spray to paint brush. Great dialog!!! -Doug

What kind of oil are you using that gets crystals in it? Man, it takes a good 6 months for me to use up a quart container treating fingerboards. Tung oil has been a staple in my shop for over 25 years and I've never, ever seen crystals. I purposly leave new containers open for seversl days to thicken it too. As for the dust... soak the wood with the tung oil, let it sit for 5 or ten minutes then wipe it dry, totally dry, and polish it. There should be nothing for dust to stick to. If you pick the piece up and leave fingerprints, the surface has not been wiped and polished enough. Resist the urge to reapply for 24 hours. 20 treatments should take 20 days. Yes, tung oils are amber except the ones containing dye. Factor that into your final color choice. It will also cause changes in the dye by removing some pigment thats near the surface, and by causing others to soak into the surface and dilute. Remember, tung oil is just another kind of finish. With that comes the understanding that it has it's own unique characteristic which distinguishes it from other choices. One chooses a finish based on their personal vision of the end result. Tung oil is the finish of choice when I want to accentuate the surface beauty and feel of the wood. -Doug

LMII's water based colors I like very much. They are dyes. If a customer wanted a guitar like you mentioned most likely I would not do it. I would experiment though to see how it could work out. I don't use shellac for anything ever. Behlen's tung oil is nice. Every brand has little variations on how they go on, finish, and durability. Adding poly can make the fibers harder. I've found it's easier to leave streaks with poly mixed in, and it tends to want to stay more on the surface rather than soak. This part depends on how much poly you add. -Doug

Unclj nailed it. Mixing some poly in there definitely makes a harder finish. The poly makes application a bit more tricky, however a remarkable finish can be achieved. As for waxing I tend to stay away from that on open grained woods like padauk or wenge, because it can get to looking funny in the grains after several days. to answer mickguard: I don't use stain only dye, and never under an oil finish. I like the natural wood. -Doug

What the book says IS true. I didn't always make guitars. With any "process" it can and should be modified depending on the application. So, a Grandfather clock may not warrent a high grit finish sanding because of the hand rubbed finish. Chairs, book cases, curious, etc. might get a sprayed finish so a 180 grit finish sanding is all that's needed. Guitars that I shoot polyester on get sanded to 180. If the surface is too smooth the finish might not adhere properly. However, when it comes to a natural oil finish on a guitar I prefer to make the dry wood surface as smooth as possible prior to applying the oil. Yep, it may be overkill, but it sure looks nice. The other reason for fine sanding is to locate those pesky deeper scratches that might otherwise go unnoticed. Once I know the scratches are all gone, I'm happy. Supergrit is the place for abrasive. I buy 50yd rolls of J weight. I recently tried the yellow paper stuff from Grizzly too which worked well. It doesn't last quite as long, but it does cost a little less. It's a trade off. Dollar for dollar it works out to be about the same. Mirka PSA disks are good for the orbitals. If you want 8-1/2 x 11 cut sheets then Norton abreasives are good (the white and blue box). Their brown paper is junk like all the others. -Doug

Yes Chris, that's the one. After many years of this oil finish thing I've come up with my own method which may not be "by the book" as some might think. First is to finish sand the wood to a high grit - yes you can tell - to get the feel I want. Then I slobber on one thick coat of tung oil, and let it soak in. I apply another real wet coat, and let that soak in. After letting the last application stand until it's sticky, I wipe it all off. Tung oil is not meant for surface build really so it needs to be wiped off. The reason for the wet coats etc. is because after that hardens in the grain the wood no longer soaks it in anymore for the most part. I apply several more applications allowing at least 24 hours in between. Totally wiping the piece dry after each. This builds a very strong barrier to the elements in the wood. For that nice low sheen I rub the piece with 0000 steel wool soaked in more tung oil. Be careful though because the grain can trap bits of the steel wool. In open grained woods wax is a bad idea because it turns color after a few days then the surface can look dirty. The Model 07LTD on my web site has about 15 applications of Waterlox. Each successive treatment adds a little more filling and depth, but not too much filling. Trick: pour out 1/2 a container of your polymerized blended tung oil into an open container and let it sit for a few days until it thickens and turns dark. This is my absolute favorite condition to use tung oil. Use the new "thin" stuff for the first two or three applications then follow with the thick. It took about 1 cup (US) to do the Model 07LTD. They all can from what I've seen. However, it's not meant to. When has that ever stopped anyone...? -Doug

Hmmm, that Tru-Oil seems quite popular. Why? I am truly curious. I have a bottle of it, but only used it once on a couple fingerboards. The smell was so bad that I turned on the exhaust system for several hours because it permiated the entire shop. Since then I've left it on the shelf. The results were nice, just like Waterlox or others. I use the same method as Mattia, except no wax. -Doug

+1 for Pavlovian response to a beer opening!! Fortunately for billious there's a pretty good list of suppliers right here on PG in the Supply section. None of us like using expensive "oops" necks to fuel the bar-b-Q, but it happens. Tool failure, our own stupidity, or whatever is something we live with. What's important to our clients is that they end up with the perfect neck they ordered. -Doug

Some of the good blended tung oils have boiled linseed in them too, but in small amounts. -Doug

I get asked about tung oils a lot. Customers like to finish necks or whole guitars with it and so do I. My answers are based on the experiences I have had over the years, which like any opinion can be one sided at times. Let's hear what you have to say: Please share your personal experience with your favorite oil finish. What kind is it? Why you like it? Why have you singled that one brand out above all others? Maybe, compare it to other kinds you've used in the past too. My experience/opinion: For the past 20 or so years I have come to prefer Waterlox brand of tung oil. There are several reasons formost of which is that it hardens the wood fibers making the surface more resiliant to contamination. The other is it is processed and blended with other favorable oils, and it does harden within 24hours or so. It also doesn't stink. Several oils just flat out smell bad like that gun oil some people use. I have a shelf in my shop with nearly every brand of tung or other oil I have ever heard of, but when all is said and done I still prefer the Waterlox. Thanks for your input! -Doug

Yep, "ash on steroids" for sure. -Doug

Absolutely QS. Why would they cut a wood so that it loses it's most stiking feature? Also; the wood does not have to be dead quarter to get the look. Just less than say 45 deg. Peace,Rich Rich nailed it. I can't say as I have ever seen flatsawn ZW in the racks where I buy it. It makes a great fingerboard. I've done it many times and have always been very pleasantly surprised with the end result. It would make me very nervous using boards like the ones pictured in a neck as laminates. That grain has way too much wander to it, and with it the potential to warp the neck. It should be fine for a fingerboard though since it's not likely to bend a neck sideways. -Doug

Granted, Zebrawood isn't real strong. It's still pretty good. If your piece is thick enough for a bolt on then slice it up for laminates. If you make them thick enough you'll get to see some of the grain too. I've never used it for laminates simply because the effect is lost when it's thin. If you're planning to make your neck from solid zebrawood, then I might be concerned about it's stability. If the piece you have is seasoned well and still stays straight then you should be all right. Over the years I've noticed that it tends to "wander" more than other woods. <aybe laminate the zebrawood with thin layers of something else like wenge. That'd be a pretty cool combo. -Doug

The nut shelf can be right on the neck itself provided you thickness the fingerboard properly. Stewmac fingerboards are pretty thin so I doubt you'd need any of the fingerboard under the nut. -Doug

Wow! Way cool!!

Unfortunately I don't sell them, I just make them up when necessary. Follow the directions on the label with your tung oil. Be sure to let it really soak in as much as possible on the first coat. -Doug

Zebrawood makes outstanding fingerboards! It is sort of soft from a fretting perspective, but certainly not softer than a typical rosewood board. Use fretwire with a longer tang. There are ways to stiffen the exposed surface. The simplest is to use a polymerized blended tung oil because hardens and soaks deep into the grain without surface building. Repeated applications over several days will result in an outstanding durable finish. You can then repeat the application periodically long after the guitar has been completed. -Doug

Having a nice accent running down the centerline makes for a nice touch! I did that on my Model 07LTD with ebony. Adding the binding in the slot should be pretty nice indeed. What I did was use my truss rod slotting jig. Pretty simple really. I used a 1/4" spiral bit with a 1/2" bearing on the shank. The jig has a 1/2" slot in it. Basically the bearing holds the bit in a straight line and the bit makes the cut. After the slot was done I made the ebony strip carefully shaving it's width until it fit snugly. You could do the same thing with whatever bit you have then adjust the width of your wood piece to make up the space between the binding. If you don't have any bearings around to fit the bit, then maybe you have a set of router bushings that screw into your router base. You could use any size so long as it matches the width of your template slot. So if you have a 1" bushing, then make sure the template you make has a 1" opening. Should you choose to go the template route, you can use it for the front of the guitar too. I know there are several ways to make a slot like this, but I happen to be a big fan of jigs that keep the router in place and mitigate any chances of wander. -Doug

I love the science behind even what seems like simple things! "Is it strong enough" nails it. Careful preparation and execution of good woodworking practice should yield a strong enough neck. Many of us have seen necks that make us wonder how it ever kept from just breaking but still holds. Even fractured ones. So I think he has a pretty good chance of this horiz. lam neck actually working. -Doug

Router bit: Whiteside 1-1/4" diameter 2" long template bit. Awesome tool! The carbide is exceptional. Very little tear out with a sharp one. They are a staple tool in my shop. Sander: Robo sander makes a pretty rough surface that's not very exact. It's great if the router bit isn't an option. You would do well to get one of those wood core spindle sanders for your drill press in addition to the Robo. I use them when I want to finish sand here and there. This method will produce very very good results. I use J weight cloth backed abrasive on those wood core spindles. -Doug

That's right. Same applies for any other use of wood in a neck. Splitting could occur. This horizontal lmainate might not yield a neck as stiff as a more traditional vertical lam. The test would be to make 2 blanks and stress test them. One is sure to flex more than the other. I wish I had more time for fun stuff like this! -Doug

What would those wavy lines be caused from? -Doug

I've got the Jet benchtop model too and I love it and hate it at the same time. If you're on a budget then I think it's a good buy. Mine has issues with the tapered hole the spindles screw into. It goes out of shape then the spindles wobble. I don't know what's available there, but General have a pretty beefy floor model. I'm going to replace my Jet with that one this winter. The spindles lock in better too. I use the spindle sander for volute and rough heel shaping, that's about it. It's a reaaly handy tool for specific things. doug

Interesting concept! That has to look really cool. Grain orientation would still be very important though, moreso if the layers are thicker. I'd say give it go. Heck, I might just try it too. It's so non-traditional... Cool! What have you got to loose? Some time and some wood. That's how we all learn. The only other thing, besides the aforementioned symetry, is too many layers may turn it into sort of a playwood looking thing. That may not be bad though, just something to keep in mind. BTW, a proper glue bond is stronger than the surrounding wood. Laminates add strength when implemented properly. Have fun! -Doug