jay5 Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Get this, I listed a Bigsby B5 style tremolo lI had laying around last night on ebay. I go to check the auction this morning and I cant find it. I reload my browser and still nothing. I check my email and find a message from ebay stating that my auction was removed by request of the Fred Gretsch company. Here is the message; We would like to let you know that we removed your listing: 3774434651 Brand New Bigsby B5 Style Tremelo/Vibrato Gold because the intellectual property rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury, that your listing or the item itself infringes their copyright, trademark, or other rights. If you relist this or any other similar items on eBay, your account likely will be suspended. I was really shocked. I realize that using the term Bigsby probably does infringe, I just never figured a big company like Gretsh would give a crap. This kind of thing ever happened to anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 NO WAY. Thats SOOOOOO lame. If it's yours you bought the rights to it and YOU can sell it any way you choose. Thats really lame. I will NEVER buy from gretsh. Thats soo retarted. That would be like me driving around in a porsche I bought and them sueing for showing the logo around town. Thats so messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Yeah that's lame. eBay must be hurting their sales or something; they probably have someone on payroll just to troll around the 'Bay & hassle people. Relist it as "B5 style tremelo - not Bigsby" that way people will still find it if they search on "Bigsby". You might want to open another account to do this...with another email address, referenced to another credit card etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Thanks Godin I appreciate it, I fell that its pretty stupid as well. Tecnically though they have a point I guess. It isnt a "real" bigsby, its a clone. I think the fact that I am using the Bigsby name to sell somthing that isnt made by Gretsch is their issue. The problem is, I cant really think of any other word for a bigsby that would really let you know that is was essentially just that without pissing off the powers that be. Its like saying "Band-aid style" or "Q-tip like". Theyre brandnames but they are what we have come to call them regardless of who makes them. It baffles me that they would give a damn really. The fact thats its someones job at Gretsch to search ebay all day for these things is the funniest part. Oh well. Anyone want a "nothing like a bigsby" style tremolo in gold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Is it a licensed Bigsby® ? Do you have a lawyer? If so, have him send nasty letters to both Ebay and Fender (that's right, there is no Gretsch - it's just another Fender brand identity, like Sunn, Guild and Benedetto). Fender is known for "protecting their trademarks" by strong-arming Ebay, and Ebay only has a backbone when they're telling you what you can't do. It probably won't do any good, but if enough people go on record about this corporate bullying, somebody at Ebay might eventually have to listen. Good luck with it - you're probably never going to get any satisfaction without at least threatening litigation. Check out Tabberone's Trademark pages for the stories of one person who won't put up with this VeRO crap (and sued Disney, represented themselves, and daMouse settled out of court!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 It isnt licensed as far as I can tell, just a clone. I really dont think I have any sort of case. It isnt really a huge deal to me but it is kind of annoying. Reading that site is kind of interesting. It almost seems that that person is trying to get things removed on purpose. Looks like she is making a couple $$ in settlements too Oh well, I might try to start a new ebay name and list it as a B5 per Eriks suggestion. Who knows, well see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Get this, I listed a Bigsby B5 style tremolo lI had laying around last night on ebay. Yep, that's right, you can't use the word Bigsby to advertise a non-Bigsby. Some companies are quite vigorous about protecting their trademarks --if the word falls into common usage, they lose a lot. Sure, it doesn't always seem fair. In the meantime, check out this guy's auctions: B5 style This one just ended...he puts a new one up every week of so. In fact, I bought one a couple of months back... Hmm...how much are you asking for yours? I might be interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Thats the same one I have, only gold plated. I was looking to get about that, $45 shipped. I know that I cant tecnically list it with the word bigsby I just had no idea they could really care. I mean, how much money can they actually be loosing? Its not like im selling a half price White Falcon "style" guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 (edited) It depends on how you worded the description in your ad. If you called it a Bigsby and it doesn't say "Bigsby" on it, ie. a clone, then I can see someone getting irked, not to mention potential buyers who think they are bidding on a real Bigsby. That would be false advertizing. But I can't see any way they can legally remove the ad if you said it was a "Bigsby style" tremolo, where you are using the name "Bigsby" as a descriptive term. I mean, how else could you describe it? Edited January 8, 2005 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted January 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 But I can't see any way they can legally remove the ad if you said it was a "Bigsby style" tremolo, where you are using the name "Bigsby" as a descriptive term. I mean, how else could you describe it? My auction title said "Bigsby Style Tremolo" so I know it wasnt false add thing. Apparently they just didnt want me using Bigsby to describe and sell a product that wasnt theirs. Thats their right I guess but as you said though, how else do you describe a bigsby and still hope to have people find it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Write the title as: "Vintage-style Tremelo--Compare to a real Bigsby B5!!" In your description of the item, compare your trem with a B5. You can use a trademark in a comparison to another competing product. It doesn't matter if yours is licensed or not. How do you think Chevy and Ford get away with using each others' marks in commercials? Say something like: "Looks similar to a real B5, but costs much less!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted January 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 In your description of the item, compare your trem with a B5. You can use a trademark in a comparison to another competing product. It doesn't matter if yours is licensed or not. Really? Im really hesitant to relist it since ebay threatened to suspend my account. I would like to put it up "legally" just as a little slap in the face but...Im not really ready to loose my account over a $45 part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_ed Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 The reason Gretsch was involved, rather than the Bigsby company or Fender, is that Gretsch owns Bigsby, not Fender. All Fender owns is the right to build guitars using the Gretsch name for a number of years. Guitar Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 eBay has the right to suspend your account for whatever they want. It doesn't really matter if you have the legal right to the mark or not. You don't have a legal right to sell anything on eBay and they can say "screw you" at any time. However, by comparing your trem to the real B5, it really cuts the legs off anything Gretch can do. Especially if there's quite a bit of difference in the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Os Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Holy Cow! What if Floyd Rose went after all the folks on Ebay who listed 'Floyd Rose' trems on guitars that well... Just didn't have them? I hate to see those ads that list the Floyd amongst the other parts when it's really a TRS or some such. But man... If Floyd went after folks for the same thing, it'd get ugly, no? Cor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slingr Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Why doesn't Fender go after everyone who is selling a "strat-like" guitar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32251 Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Ebay is blindly abiding by a law that allows companies with the ownership of a trade name to protest the noncompliance of the use of that name. All the company has to do is to email ebay, tell them that your ad infringes on their trade name and Ebay pulls the ad! Ebay does not even question them. It is unfair and sucks but Ebay is a money machine, what would you expect. Anytime you list on ebay and use the name "Gretsch" in your ad, it better have to do with a Gretsch product, not something similiar or Gretsch will contact ebay and have your ad pulled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageRocker Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Wow, how dare eBay blindly abide by a law! Where would we be if everyone abided by laws! This is real simple, guys. "bigsby" is not a generic term. If your vibrato wasn't manufactured by Bigsby, either under Gretsch ownership or its previous owners (Paul Bigsby and then Ted McCarty), or manufactured under license from Bigsby, then it's not a genuine Bigsby® and you can't call it that, period. That's trademark infringement and can expose you to very expensive legal action. It could even expose you to fraud charges. It's also Keyword Spamming and Brand Name Misuse, both are specifically prohibited by eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-keywords.html . You can't put "Compare to Bigsby" in your auction title. The most you can do is describe in the body of the auction that it's similar to a real Bigsby, so long as it's very clear that yours isn't a genuine Bigsby. I know of someone from a Tele forum whose 1000-plus positive feedback eBay account was terminated about 18 months ago because he insisted on defying Gretsch on this exact issue. Don't make the same mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32251 Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 (edited) I should probably clarify my use of the word "law" in that this is more of a court decision that Ebay is following. What is wrong with it, is that the company does not have to point out to Ebay why it is disputing your ad. Ebay AUTOMATICALLY pulls the ad, no questions to anybody. You don't get a chance to explain your ad wording and whether you feel like you had a legally correct ad or not. Ebay sides with the company so they will not be held liable. I had an ad pulled just because I did the old trick of adding the words "NOT Gibson, Gretsch, Fender" to the title so that I would attract more lookers who might do searches using those names. Gretsch is the only company that bitched and Ebay pulled my ad and I had to start over with new wording. I don't think it promotes any good will at all among prospective Gretsch customers to do this. I have read several posts on the net from folks ticked off big time about this. I am still a little ticked off at this because it hampered my selling of an instrument. I would not mind purchasing a Gretsch guitar, but I am at odds with them over this policy and it does not make me want to support them, since they were pretty ruthless with me over an ad that caused them NO damage at all to their name. If I can remember the name of this policy that Ebay follows I will post it. Edit. VeRO is the name. Verified Rights Owner. All the owner of a trade name has to do is contact Ebay and allege that you are infringing on their name. Whether you are or not Ebay sides with the VeRO owner and you are screwed. Do a Google search--VeRO tradmark. All sorts of info on this. Edited January 8, 2005 by 32251 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executioner606 Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Thats almost as bad as monster cable seuing people for using the word "monster" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 "NOT Gibson, Gretsch, Fender" to the title so that I would attract more lookers who might do searches using those names. this irks me to no end and is ignorant reasoning at best. when i go on to ebay looking for a gibson,fender,gretsch,etc...the last thing i want is to be bombarded by a p.o.s. hamer slammer that has every keyword in the book in the title,even though it has nothing to do with any of them.auctions like this IMO should be terminated immediately so that ebay might actually become more useful.it is disgraceful. BUT in the case of the guy with the "bigsby" style trem,i think that it is only a descriptive term,and an honest auction,so it should be left as is. does no one have common sense anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 BUT in the case of the guy with the "bigsby" style trem,i think that it is only a descriptive term,and an honest auction,so it should be left as is. does no one have common sense anymore? Yeah, I have to agree with that too...there are tons of tele-style, strat-style etc. The only difference here is that Gretsch objected to the use of their brand for someone else's commercial use. If it's any consolation, when I went shopping for my tremelo, I did searches for tremelos, whammys...didn't actually type in Bigsby...but I came across the Bigsby-style (which is, let's face it, exactly the same thing, just doesn't have the word Bigsby on it) for one-third the price...i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 eBay's VeRO policy is interesting, to say the least. I guess their policy is to prevent lawsuits by simply doing whatever the mark owner demands. I suppose with the amount of items up for sale everyday on eBay, they'd get sued out of existence pretty fast if they didn't cowtow to the demands of companies like FMIC. Just a quick note, "Bigsby" is not a descriptive term. Gretch is actually trying to prevent "Bigsby" from becoming a descriptive term by defending their marks. I didn't know that eBay prohibited comparisons in titles, but not in the actual listing. Interesting policy. I wonder what term you COULD use to describe the specific style of trem in the title? Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32251 Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 westtheman I was selling a custom made double neck that I built. When your trying to sell an item that does not have high name recog then you use any method you can. I did sell the guitar for close to a grand which was fine with me. I see where you are coming from if you log onto "Gretsch" and a POS comes up, but when a nice instrument comes up because of some keywords, then that is fine with me. I might not have found it otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 westtheman I was selling a custom made double neck that I built. When your trying to sell an item that does not have high name recog then you use any method you can. I did sell the guitar for close to a grand which was fine with me. I see where you are coming from if you log onto "Gretsch" and a POS comes up, but when a nice instrument comes up because of some keywords, then that is fine with me. I might not have found it otherwise. guys like me who are interested in handmade instruments look in "other" or type in the keyword "handmade" trust me,most people see "not a ...." and just skip right over it in protest like this guy http://stores.ebay.com/Stellar-Guitars-BUY...genameZl2QQtZkm great looking guitars...cheaper than agiles and probably at least as good in quality(not hard to do) but "les paul strings"? who the hell is he trying to fool. and i found it in "other electric" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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