Corrective Nuts And Zero Frets.

[MasterMinds]

So I've seen all forms of corrective nuts, including a zero fret. What I don't see is how they're all correcting the same thing. So this leads me to think there's combinations that would fix the problems.

A zero fret is supposed to pull the first part of the tensioned string away from the fretting area, so you are not having the tension affect the pitch to the same degree, right?

Now I always see some nuts which offset each string slightly to different degrees - this doesn't solve tension problems at all, so is it correcting the tension amount by altering the pitch? And how would it do this if you're still tuning it normally?

I definetely am going with a zero fret, no doubt. But do I need the nut to correct for something else?

[MasterMinds]

I prefer the zero fret to a slanted nut, because I like the feeling of it - and how the open notes don't sound open anymore.

[Setch]

Zero fret does exactly the same thing as a nut, assuming both are correctly utilised. A compensated nut does exactly the same as a compensated bridge, except at the nut end of the string.

This article on the MIMF may be of interest: http://mimf.com/nutcomp/

[MasterMinds]

That said, thanks Setch.

So now I would like to get peoples opinions on usage of a nut (and which one) versus the zero fret? Which have you guys chosen?

[Mr Alex]

That said, thanks Setch.

So now I would like to get peoples opinions on usage of a nut (and which one) versus the zero fret? Which have you guys chosen?

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seriously, make a nut out of the same wood as fretboard, and use a zero fret, the nut just retains the spacing, and it will look good with nut made out of fretboard wood.

there are endless pros and cons with zerofrets and nuts, most are false assumptions from people that never tried a zero fret. ive got one on an acoustic, and you only get fret buzz if your too stupid to adjust the bridge right, and you dont need to worry about string height at nut(just make sure all the string slots are deep enough though.

[Ragasguitars]

First off the only thing that affects the string tension is the tuning gears. The tension of the string is set by the scale length and the tuning, not the headstock angle or anything else. Zero frets are usually seen on cheaper guitars so they are associated with cheaper guitars and therefore are understood to be a cheaper method. Actually it is a more efficient method of production which makes less expensive guitars cost even less. Nuts are traditional, so people assume that its the only way to do things. A zero fret is quicker, and also gives you the most accurate string height possible. If you use a capo, you are basically using a zero fret. Its all just preference or lack of information that fuels the debate. Anyway, since you are using a zero fret, you still need a nut or some sort of string guide to space the strings properly. People do stupid things without knowing it, as an example, I used to work for an acoustic guitar company. Many of the bluegrass players we endorsed wanted a bone nut for their guitar because they just had to have one, then they would use a capo which makes the bone nut obselete. Knowledge is the key.

[MasterMinds]

I guess you're right - if I use a zero fret, then all the strings need is a bit of guide towards the tuning pegs.

Hmm, ideas.

Ragasguitars - you said zero frets are associated with cheaper guitars, and is a cheaper method - so what's the not-so-cheap method then? You didn't mention an alternative to support moving tension away from the frets or of correcting for existing tension?

Thanks

I'm working on my electronic customization here, so will be back thinking about this in a bit!

Mr Alex - a nice wood nut sounds nice, perhaps a matching metal one or something we'll see.

[GregP]

I'm not sure that people are being clear about string tension.

The ONLY things that affect string tension are scale length (the distance from nut to bridge) and stringe guage. Nothing else will affect it, including the machine heads. A nut and a zero fret will have the exact same impact on the string tension.

I am a firm believer in zero fret, despite not having tonnes of practical experience with them. It's the only system that makes sense for me for consistency of tone and intonation.

Greg

[MasterMinds]

GregP - to me it's seem like a corrective is "just compensating for the symptom" where a zero fret is "eliminating the illness"...so to speak

compensating for tension rather than removing it from the playing area.

oh well, i go with zero for sure

[Devon Headen]

Many of the bluegrass players we endorsed wanted a bone nut for their guitar because they just had to have one, then they would use a capo which makes the bone nut obselete.  Knowledge is the key.

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Which is why I modify my capos to use bone. I much prefer the tone of bone to metal. If it was more feasable to use bone as a fret material, I'd use it. That's why I haven't tried a zero fret yet.

[Mr Alex]

probably the wrong place for this, but zero frets usually sound amazing with classical guitars.

[GregP]

Devon, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about the bone capo.

[Devon Headen]

I'm not.

[frank falbo]

Well you should be. With a capo, the fretwire is your fulcrum. The only benefit of a harder surface like bone is that it wouldn't dampen the strings behind the fret, and therefore create a more precise fretted note. (with the emphasis on "fretted") You should be able to accomplish the same thing with any other hard material on your capo, like plastic or metal. I can assure you, although it may sound "better" it certainly doesn't make your capo "sound like" bone.

[frank falbo]

Also more on topic, I just did a compensated nut for the first time. It was for an acoustic player who squeezes really hard. He'll go through jumbo fretwire in a few years. This was for his electric guitar. Although it wouldn't help me much, because I have my technique solidified, it was fantastic for him. So the idea does have merit, and it's player-based.

[Devon Headen]

Well you should be. With a capo, the fretwire is your fulcrum. The only benefit of a harder surface like bone is that it wouldn't dampen the strings behind the fret, and therefore create a more precise fretted note. (with the emphasis on "fretted") You should be able to accomplish the same thing with any other hard material on your capo, like plastic or metal. I can assure you, although it may sound "better" it certainly doesn't make your capo "sound like" bone.

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I know it doesn't sound like bone, but it sounds a LOT better than rubber. Yes, I could possibly get the same sound with metal, but the bone is what I chose, just because of the mojo I think it gives. It might not be explainable, but I think a placebo effect really does make playing music more enjoyable. This is on acoustic, if anyone's wondering, I never use capo on electric.

[GregP]

There you go! As long as you can go halfway and say that it may indeed be placebo effect, then I say make them bone capos, son, make them bone capos. And send me one while you're at it. <grin>

Frank, a compensated nut CERTAINLY has merit. If you're going to use a guitar that has a nut, it's definitely a consideration. I wonder, though, if your giant-grip player has ever used a zero fret guitar. Not easy to retrofit a nut-based guitar for one, so that's why a compensated nut is a better option in those cases. But for a built-from-scratch, I bet he'd benefit more from zero fret.

Greg

[frank falbo]

Yeah Devon, we're in agreement. It's like if someone frets a note with the softer part of their finger vs. pressing hard with the tip of their finger, the sound is different. The fret is still the fulcrum, but what's happening behind it is still governing the attack and sustain.

As for the zero fret, this particular guitar had a roller nut on it, so the slot was already pushed forward about 1/8". That made it a perfect candidate. But it's true, he does play more in tune when he's using a capo. (until now...mwoohoohoohaha) Now I'll have to get ahold of his acoustic when I have several hours to waste. Or I'll just make him buy the Earvana.

Also, what's being left out is that each string, if squeezed too hard will go sharp to different degrees. So even with a zero fret, an unwound G will pull sharper than the D for example, whether you're on fret 1 or 5. So the compensated nut addresses that as well. As you approach the 12th fret, you're getting into the bridge compensation more, so the compensated nut is all but eliminated from the equation. I mean, it's still there, but you're playing in an area that is equally correctable from the bridge, if not moreso.

I should add that I usually cut my nut slots stealthly low, so again it's less noticable if you fret properly. The compensated nut guitar sounded more in tune when he played it than when I did. So I'll be sticking with tempered tuning and regular nuts personally, at least for now.

Edited April 1, 2005 by frank falbo

[mledbetter]

<lobbing a grenade and running for cover >

I fail to see the difference between a properly cut nut and a zero fret. As Frank said.. a nut cut low and to the right radius gives you the same effect. A zero fret is probably easier to pull off.

Anybody seen the fretwave system? (www.fretwave.com) The frets are actually compensated.. looks surreal but they say it works.

The logic: If a properly cut nut and a zero fret behave the same way theoretically, then a properly cut compensated nut would have the advantage over both. Otherwise you could go with a compensated zero fret.. like the fretwave deal.

MM if you have a zero fret you're done. the nut behind it is just a string guide so your question doesn't make sense to me. You keep saying "i'm definitely going with a zero fret" so it sounds like your question is answered. Your string guide could be a piece of chewing gum. it doesn't matter. Save for the bone capo discussion.. the stability of your strings behind the fret will have an effect on tone.. but the point is you're not going to affect intonation by altering something outside of the scale boundries.

[Maiden69]

I will like to see anyone doing bends, vibratos and sweeps on those fretwave things. Like being on a rollercoaster ride!

[mledbetter]

I will like to see anyone doing bends, vibratos and sweeps on those fretwave things.  Like being on a rollercoaster ride!

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well i guess the only thing going for it is that it doesn't go past the first 3 frets.. I think it's very strange though..

Honestly.. with the strides made recently with Gibson's MagIC technology and the variax and stuff like that.. I would bet that in 5-10 years guitars will have on board pitch correcters and all kinds of transparent technologies that will replacel these attempts for mechanical pitch correction. If you haven't seen the MaGIC stuff.. check it out.. i think the site is www.gibsondigital.com. It's crazy stuff.. forget the midi guitar

[Maiden69]

OK, I just went to their site and I must ad that this is a crock of you know what. I only goes on the 1st and 2nd fret, and it is suppose to...

By simply fitting Fretwave to any straight-fretted guitar you can immediately improve the tuning across all chords. And that means your playing will sound a whole lot better.

now, tell me how many chords use those 2 frets, on those 2 strings exactly, This is so misleading, Just by adding this 2 bent frets your guitar will sound so much better... whatever, mledbetter, this is not against you, but the Inventor of this system, of course it works, but only on those 2 string and fret combination, outside of it, they are useless. No wonder I had never heard of this before. COmpensated frets is a thing of the past for me know, I thought that this was somenthing more useful and radical to mount on a guitar, but this, com'on.

I thing you should save your money, and if you are going to try and compensate for anything it should be at the bridge or nut.

[mledbetter]

OK, I just went to their site and I must ad that this is a crock of you know what. I only goes on the 1st and 2nd fret, and it is suppose to...

By simply fitting Fretwave to any straight-fretted guitar you can immediately improve the tuning across all chords. And that means your playing will sound a whole lot better.

now, tell me how many chords use those 2 frets, on those 2 strings exactly, This is so misleading, Just by adding this 2 bent frets your guitar will sound so much better... whatever, mledbetter, this is not against you, but the Inventor of this system, of course it works, but only on those 2 string and fret combination, outside of it, they are useless. No wonder I had never heard of this before. COmpensated frets is a thing of the past for me know, I thought that this was somenthing more useful and radical to mount on a guitar, but this, com'on.

I thing you should save your money, and if you are going to try and compensate for anything it should be at the bridge or nut.

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Personally, i'm not purchasing any of it.. but the same arguement could go for the nut.. after you fret the first string, the nut makes no difference.. with this after you fret after the 3rd fret nothing makes a difference.. I don't claim to understand it but it's the same principle as the compensated nut. A dude on the MIMF fniished a guitar with the fretwave systems and swears that as screwed up and wierd as it looks, it works. I personally would never try it but it's interesting nontheless.

The bridge compensation is 99% of your intonation control.. Nut compoensation can make up for most of that 1% left over.. and really by the same theory, the fret compensation could work too, but who wants to cut curved fret slots.. what a pain in the ass..

Also.. i don't remember seeing if the fretwave required a different tuning method.. i'm thinking it does. Kind of like the Feiton system requires changing your tuning practice a bit.. Personally, I tune by ear using the 3rd and 5th harmonics so I probably get some sort of tempered tuning that way. I get headache from the 3rd string a lot, like anyone else but i get the least amount of headaches tuning by ear with the harmonic nodes.

[frank falbo]

The compensated nut isn't out of the equation once you fret the first fret, because it affected the string length of each string. It's effect gets reduced gradually as you approach the 12th fret. If the G string gives you headache (as it does me sometimes) then just try compensating the G. Put a shim on the G alone, about 1/16" out, and you'll have 90% of the compensated nut benefit.

[Maiden69]

Actualy as soon as you fret any string the nut is not doing anything, all it does is fine tune the string open. Once you fret it will go out of the picture. The lenght of the string from the fret to the bridge is the same with a compensated nut or without it.