Need To Do A Carve Top On Some Hard Wood

[Daniel Sorbera]

So now comes the time where I need to carve the top... The only problem is I'm doing it on wenge. I tried doing it with a hand plane but it looks like it would take me like a year to carve it because the wood is so hard So what do you sugest? Whats the best methoed to carve the top?

[orgmorg]

I like to rough out the shape with a 50 grit sanding disc on a 4 1/2" angle grinder. I don't believe wenge would slow it down a bit. Try it on some scrap first, to get the feel of it, though.

[mledbetter]

This

Carving Wheel

Seriously though.. something that hard you may have to do some sort of power grinding.. It's not cheap though. I wonder too about using a big router bit to get the shape.. A raised panel cabinet makers bit gives you about 1-2 inches of gentle slope.. they aren't cheap either though and it would be a waste of a 100 dollar bit if the Wenge eats it up and dulls it..

What about rasps? And hopefully you've got some good dust protection. I'm not positive about Wenge but a lot of the exotic wood dust is REALLY bad for you to breathe.

I borrowed a friends carving rasps to work on ash and those things ate it up like it was nothing.. granted wenge is a lot harder, it's might at least hog most of the wood out...

If none of that works you might have to do the stairstep routing and mallet/chisel work.

[unusual71]

^ouch!! alot of people use angle grinders or route the shape in "steps" so it looks like a staircase all around your guitar, then there'll be enough to do the rest by hand, could you post some pics as im thinking of doing a carved top for my second project, thanks

[Micter]

A lot of guys actually draw lines and use a drill press to set the depth before using an angle grinder.

[Doc]

What tools do you have access to?

You can make a pattern and run a router with a collet on it around your perimeter. Then shrink your pattern and run it around decreasing the depth of cut at each width. Cut it to three or four steps. This gives you a terraced "rice paddy' look. Then you use your sander to even it out.

You can do it the old fashioned way and actually carve it with a gouge. Whacking the gouge with a mallet. Wengie isn't as tough as some maple or cherry. Use a real gouge. Check Hartvilletool.com for HMK gouges.

I have a rotary carver that fits on a side grinder that I use to carve stuff like Windsor chair seats. Takes a little while to learn how to use it though. Screwed up a couple of good board before got the hang of it.

Wengie isn't supposed to be toxic but my experience with it doesn't agree. The dust is nasty bad tasting and irritating. Wear a mask and blow yourself off good before you take off the mask.

[Daniel Sorbera]

That chain saw thingy looks like it will work mledbetter mabye I should go and use it right now!

I have spent all afternoon in the shop with my spindal sander (well sort of, I have a spindal sander attachement for the drill press...) After all afternoon I'm just about done with roughing in the shape the shape on ONE of the two bodies I have to do. Add to that the fact that wenge dust is bad stuff. It just goes right through my mask I have a good face mask though. Mabye It's time I replaced the filters in it. The wegnge sawdust is REALLY fine so it gets everywhere. I was prety scared when I took off the mask and My whole face was black and I was blowing out black snot I'm not having any trouble breathing now so hopefully I diddnt do any kind of damage.

Doing wenge on a drill press spindal sander thingy is NOT the best way to do it Wenge isint that hard if you go at it with a gouge because the grain is so far apart. But when you try to sand it, it's like going through concrete. Before I do the other guitar I will get one of those angle grinders with a 40 grit sanding disk. I think that should do the trick...

Edited April 14, 2005 by Godin SD

[bluespresence]

I can see a new movie with a psycho and chain saw grinder wheel thingy chasing people through Texas.........

I use the Norton Charger flap discs on my 4-1/2" grinder. Go to the link and check the bottom of the page:

Flapper disc

They allow delicate work and don't eat up too much at once so you can work a little easier. They also allow for curves and after a few minutes you feel like it becomes a part of your hand. Very easy and nice to work with. I do all my carving by eye and only mark out the outline before I start.

As was mentioned *****use a very good quality dust mask or respirator*****

[GregP]

Those flapper discs look like the happy medium. I wonder if I can find any to fit the angle-grinder attachment of my spinsaw. I've never seen them before, so I don't know how available they'll be up here in Canuckia.

Greg

[RGGR]

But when you try to sand it, it's like going through concrete.

When I was was carving the neck on my JS-7, I noticed the black streaks in the wenge lamintes to be much more dense then the brown streaks......

And then all those little pores in it, the fine dust.......it's definitely a strange animal.

In other thread was mentioned these silver grinding wheels

work wonders when carving a top. That's why I had bookmarked this link.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=926

Edited April 14, 2005 by RGGR

[bluespresence]

I don't know how available they'll be up here in Canuckia

They should be readily available at any decent hardware or welding supply shop. I use them for a bunch of different things from polishing stainless to cleaning welds to derusting my mower deck to removing paint from various things etc, etc, etc. They are one of the handiest things I've found for using in the shop.....and the grinder they attach to of course!

I buy them in 6 packs from the hardware store.

[GregP]

I dunno. It's amazing how hard it is to find stuff in Ottawa that you guys take for granted in your parts of the world. For example-- no Robo-Sander to be had in this entire city.

I've never heard of any particular welding shops around here, either, but there have GOT to be welders, and they therefore must get their stuff from somewhere, so I'll have to be inventive and make some phone calls.

Grizzly carries some, anyhow, and I'm thinking of making a Grizzly order at some point in time, so I might just get them with that order.

Greg

[fryovanni]

Godin,

I would really conscider pre-drilling then shave it. Sanding that stuff is nasty work and probably not as accurate. I have worked with Wenge and I feel for ya. I would really try to cut down the sanding. Also if you try a router bit, it will eat them up. The wood really make the bit want to jump around so hang on tight. Best of luck to ya mister.

Peace, Rich

[cwoodall]

YES!! I also use the flapper disc like Bluesp..... talks about. They work great on any hardwood. Take your time, don't get real aggressive, watch the angle of your grinder so you don't carve where you don't want to, and have at it. Cheap, effective, and dusty, so wear a mask.

Good luck!

Curtis

[erikbojerik]

I would not use anything with metal teeth....if you get too aggresive, wenge will really want to make big nasty splinters and tear out on you.

I say flapper disk.

Wenge....you might as well be carving granite.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Wenge....you might as well be carving granite. blink.gif

Ya prety much I got up this morning and looked at the hunk of wenge and saw how much I diddn't do yesterday. Man I've still got a ways to go. Later today I will go and buy an angle grinder and some kind of like 40 grit sanding disc. The only reason I'm not using a router is wenge tears out REALLY easy. I got some prety bad teraout when routing the sides of the body no matter how small I went in at a time and no matter how slow I Went. Luckally the tearout will be taken out my the carving... I'll report back later and tell all how it goes!

I'm so happy that I'm almost done, I really cant wait to play these. Even though wenge is giving me loads of trouble it looks beautiful and the tap tone after it's been carved and everything is just amazing. It's very clear and bell like. I cant wait to play it! All I have to do is finish carving the tops, rout the control pockets, mount the bridge (It's just a screw in bridge), and glue in the neck, than just put it all together! (O and than I gotta do the setup ) Man I hate doing setups from scratch...

So I should be done in time for GOTM (if I keep working at this rate )

Edited April 15, 2005 by Godin SD

[scott from _actual time_]

Later today I will go and buy an angle grinder and some kind of like 40 grit sanding disc. 

i think the perfect tool for carving an arched top would be a belt sander rather than an angle grinder. that idea's not original with me -- i read it somewhere on this site last year. the cylindrical surface at the front of the belt would cut that concave profile perfectly. if you're buying a tool just for this part of the project, you might want to consider a belt sander instead.

[Daniel Sorbera]

hummmm, I'll look into that thanks for the info.

[Myka Guitars]

That chain saw thingy looks like it will work mledbetter mabye I should go and use it right now!

←

Don't laugh. Tom Ribecke used to use an electric chainsaw to rough carve his tops. I doubt he is still doing but at the time his archtops were going for soem good money (and they still are).

Still the splintering of the wenge is a concern with a toothed wheel type thing.

Or you could build one of these: pantagraph router. The MDF tempaltes are easier to carve and you only have to do it once per shape. I spent about $300 on surplus industrial parts on eBay. If you do something like this use 1" or larger shafts for all of them. The smaller stuff tends to flex a bit sometimes.

~David

[erikbojerik]

Nice rig David! Let me get this straight...you work it by moving the stylus over the template by hand, right?

What kind of bit do you use on the router?

[Myka Guitars]

Yeah, you hold the stylus and run it over the template (make them about 1/2 oversize so you don't drop off the edge and cut into your top), The router follows your movements. Or you can hold the router side and let the styles control depth that way. I have it so the stylus is easily adjustable for height so you can make 1/8" passes. You can take out more the first few passes but the last couple go light and it comes out cleaner. A little sanding with 80 grit allows you to shape the fine details. All in all it akes about 45 minutes from start to finish.

I use a 1/2" round nose bit in the router (1/2" shaft). I just realized the one in the picture is a straight bit (it was a test bit). You can use one of these but I don't recommend it. The round bits are better and produce cleaner results. Plus the stylus is also a 1/2" round so the duplicating is accurate.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Myka Guitars

[Daniel Sorbera]

wow cool jig myka. I think I gotta make one of those. That would make carving the back of the neck really easy. If you have one could you mabye get me some plans or some more info? That would so be apreciated. Thanks in advance

[mledbetter]

That copy carver is definitely next on my list of tools to build.. Duplication and accuracy is a must if you're selling these things and what easier way to control quality that way.. You can still leave the final tweaking to be done by hand..

Carving tops is one of the most daunting things to wrap your brain around tool wise. This makes the most sense. As for the belt sander comment.. You could do the same thing with a drum sander, however.. getting on the inside of the horns and tight transitional areas would be nearly impossible for a belt sander. For that you're definitely better off with the angle grinder. Dean's custom instruments are still carved with an angle grinder.. that guy is flat good with one. I think he's using that carbide grinding wheel though and those are 50 bucks a pop.

There are copy carver plans online.. The biggest supplier sells his for 50 bucks but David's rig looks way better.. the linear bearings are much more byulletproof than the big roller wheels the other guys plans call for.. It looks like an old wagon..

[Daniel Sorbera]

ya I found this one that I might buy the plans for if David cant give me any more info on his. I would be scared to put that thing to a expensive peice of wood.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Godin SD

[mledbetter]

ya I found this one that I might buy the plans for if David cant give me any more info on his.  I would be scared to put that thing to a expensive peice of wood.

←

Just study davids. it's a much better plan and it's not that difficult to figure out. You need rods, linear bearings, a laminate trim router, wood to build your arms with and something for a coutnerweight. The linear bearings will cost more than anything else. 1" diameter thompson bearings will run you 100 bucks a pop from MSC or somewhere like that but you can get a pair on ebay sometimes for 60 bucks or so.

It's much the same mechanism as a CNC as far as sliding.. 2 bearings for your y axis slide, 2 bearings inline for your x axis slide.. and those same bearings pivot for your z axis movement. Laminate trim routers aren't too expensive either.

edit** it's not just linear bearings you're looking for.. it's a pillow block assy you want. The block has the linear bearings inside it. You might be able to make your own pillow block and put the linear bearings in side it.. I don't know.