Stepped Frets

[psw]

I've often considered the idea of stepped frets. Perhaps the most notable and only production guitar I can think of that used them, was the bond guitar from the UK.

I always felt that what let this guitar down was it's styling and it's radical use of materials, but most of all, it's bizarrly adventurous active remote powered electronics and digital displays.

here's a link which has some photo's of the guitar and it's unique fretboard:

bond guitar link

Now, while browsing the patents I see a lot of companies have variations on the idea (including gibson as I recall) I found one that proposed an interesting epoxy and glass sphere mix to create frets. I also see that our fretless guitar breathern have quite taken to using actual glass fretboards (or stainless steel like on the viger).

It seems like not inconcievable to mould primarily glass/epoxy steps directly to the neck. This would have the advantage of removing a lot of the work in radiusing fretting a neck and with the right mould be very accurate. I dare say you could go crazy and mould the nut on there too.

Anyhow, I'd like a bit of feedback on the notion of steps (or perhaps scolups) rather than frets, per se. The reason I wouldn't consider moulding on glass "frets" is that I believe that they would be too fragile. The step design would however provide adequate support. The use of glass is intended to provide a surface that is more wear resistant than the steel in the strings. I have other ideas that may also assist in the materials to help in this regard.

So, any opinions of experiences would be greatly appreciated

pete

[GregP]

No experiences, but I think it's a wicked-cool idea. The only concern I have (which you've already addressed) is the life of the fretboard and its reparability in the case of accident.

Greg

[JimRayden]

Yea, pretty nice idea. That fretboard on the pics has a "different" look to it. Though it only allowes sliding your finger in only one direction. The other direction wouldn't be too comfortable.

Hey, what about a bent sheet metal fretboard with bent-in scallops instead of frets.

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Jimbo

[unclej]

i'm curious..what's the benefit of this type of fretboard?

[RGGR]

So....fretboard looks like bunch of stacked up tiles.......

Hmmmmm....interesting.

CNC this out of Ceramic material and you could have an interesting concept. Wonder how it plays........

[JimRayden]

Bright n' cold, I'd say. But we have yet to hear one in action. An all-ceramic guitar. Heat up your pottery shops!

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Jimbo

[psw]

got to run but thanks for the replys, I'll be back.

The main benifit is in the labour saving of fretting and radiausing the neck.

Servicing, if necessary would be easy, put the neck back into the same mold and resurface.

bending metal would probably be as much work as fretting so I discarded that idea.

anyway, I'll be back

pete

[JimRayden]

Oh, so you're just searching for an easier way to build a guitar? Well good luck. Guitar buildin'g isn't supposed to be easy.

As to experimenting a kinda new design, it'd be a great idea. But just for labor saving... :\

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Jimbo

[ToneMonkey]

Oooh, me likey that fretboard.

I'd have a plug for the mold CNC'd. Id also consider making the shape more of a zigzag, with the top of the zig acting as the fret and the bottom of the zag being halfway between the two frets.

You could also cast normal frets into the fretboard while it's in the mold.

Keep us posted on progress, as I think this is an interesting concept.

I'll also help out as much as I can (if you send me a fretboard )

Kaj

[JimRayden]

Yea, it'd be like The Ultimate Scalopping.

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Jimbo

[psw]

Well, see I like the new ideas (although the stepped fret idea that Andrew Bond R.I.P. came originally from lutes as a rare alternative to gut frets carved into ebony and he initially used it on handmade conventional acoustics) and ideas that help in manufacturing.

The bond guitar had an interesting history but I think they just put too much into it.

The idea was a moulded graphite guitar. I reckon if he had pursued a more conventional electric but with the stepped frets maybe more would have come of the idea.

Look, the stepped frets isn't an easy option, more dificult as a one off, but as a means for achieving accuracy and consistancy it shows a lot of promise.

I actually played one in 1984ish at a trade show display when it first came out but that was a while ago and they had a lot of production problems that led to it's downfall. As I recall, it played much as a conventional guitar in terms of feel as far as the fretboard is concerned.

Yeh, ultimate scallop board. You could do all sorts of variations. As it stands it also has the benefit that the string is supported and not "bent" over the fret causing intonation problems for some players. The board works otherwise identically to frets and not at all "uncomfortable" sliding around one way to the other as your finger is sliding on the string and if anything the steps are less abrupt than the wire bumps we call frets.

Here's a bit more of my concept. Build a neck or neck trough blank. I'm thinking laminated timbers with the trussrod hidden within. Over this is the 'board moulded directly to this blank a fret/stepboard. A router is then used, with the board making it's own template, creating the pattern for the neck shape. I have a feeling I may be able to develop a mix that is essecially clear (glass) and so what you will see is the neck timbers and an almost "fretless" look. Like a fretless, side markers on every fret could show up the step positions.

So, why do this. Well, fretting and the 'board and subsequent action have a lot to do with the feel of an instrument. It takes a lot of work to get this "right". The use of molds offers a way to make very acurate repeatable fretboards and different molds differret feels and other qualities.

How about steps that progressively get more scalloped as you move up the fretboad. Or you could have something that's "fretless" above say the 12th, 15th or seventeenth fret for instance. You could mold on special internation compensating frets (like washburns wave fret idea) or various novak like fan frets. Of course, it could all be, and has been done with conventional frets, but the manufacturing is very specialized.

There have been some advances in plastic moulding and there really is no need to CNC this idea at great expense. Extremely accurate silicon based molds can easily be made at home for little expense. The trick will be to make the original. Here again though, the model need not be a working prototype, it could be made from plaster or modeling clay, whatever, as long it is accurate for the casting of the original mold.

I'll need to experiment on making a hard wearing mix and one that wont delaminate. These are my two main concerns straight up. And while making a guitar isn't supposed to be easy, I can't help myself in looking beyond a couple of centuries of banging in wire frets as the ultimate expression of guitar technology. The idea is far from a cop out, or an attempt to make a plastic guitar. But, even if only a few instruments were to be made by the home builder, the quality and consistancy and speed of producing this essential of the guitar (it's fretboard... internation, action and feel) could be worth it.

Anyway, when things settle down a bit, I'll do some experiments to test it's merits.

pete

[MasterMinds]

The idea is nice - but it does not allow slides upward, and any idea that limits playability is just a concept.

But making frets out of something else sounds neat - like glass. Sure they'd wear badly but oh well.

I still like the idea of no fingerboard, and just having the neck with tall frets that reach to where they'd normally be in a guitar. Basically like a "scalloped" guitar except it's not scoop out, it's completely dug out like a grave between each fret.

Ta ta

[ThePlague]

i don't see how a stepped fingerboard would stop you from sliding. unless you're putting insane pressure on the strings, you'll just glide up the string rather than getting stuck on the step.

and psw backed my thoughts up with his playing experience on a stepped-board guitar.

as for guitars with no fingerboards: it's been done. it's how fender used to do all of their guitars (hence the skunk stripe). but having a super thin neck with tall frets isn't practical.

first, you've got the truss rod to worry about. i suppose you could just make the neck the same thickness as before and make the pocket deeper to compensate...

but it seems to me the sliding issue would be even worse on one with frets like that. a scallop job would be fine for me. that way you've got more wood around the frets anyways.

[psw]

I think there might be a misunderstanding of the step arrangement. Basically each step is a fret but supported by a slope back and down to the previous fret and a little slope up equivilent to the front of the fret. Each step is of equal height and no need to be any higher than a typical fret 1-2mm, although it could be more for a scalloping effect. The reason for steps rather than molded on frets is that the shap provides maximum support for the frets and has more area so the potential wear is spread over a larger area and the string supported, it's not simply wearing on the crown as on a typical fret.

The bond did not use the glass fret concept. But imagine glass spheres, microscopic in size so at any point even the thinnest of strings is sitting on many, many of them. The epoxy is simply there to hold them together. Now glass is extremely tough stuff...it is made of sand after all. I think the wear would be acceptable, especially given the novel step design. The trick would be to make sure that the mix of epoxy and glass spheres is enough to hold all the spheres together but be far and away, primarily glass. The glass is not there for reinforcement but for the wear factor.

Anyway, I was released for a day and have so been able to access my home computer so here are the pictures for those too lazy to click on that link and so that you guy's can study the concept a little closer!

So, thanks for the interest. I don't really think playability is at all the issue, rather how well it can be executed.

see ya

pete

[KTLguitars]

I follow you completly on the playability issue - should be like playing a jumbo fretted neck.

I think the production accuracy of the fretboard would be the main challenge in this consept.

A few tips for the material and casting - maybe you are aware of this, but as it is not mentioned I will put in a few words anyway.

-Do some mixing test samples to find out how much glass you can put into the resin/epoxy matrix before it will be too brittle.

-When epoxy is curing the chemical process uses a specific ratio of resin and hardener. Pay very much attension to the mixing ratio as any excess of one of the components will be left as a liquid in the matrix and works as a softener. This will kill the sustain!

-Don't make the relief angle behind the "fret" too steep as this will reduse the quality of the "edge" and also the wear resistance. (I guess would be ok to make the edge angle of about 120°.)

Try it out - I like when someone dares to try out new consepts!

[GregP]

The right composite would wear far less than the nickel/silver stuff we use, MasterMinds.... and when making slides on a guitar the way it already is, you're not making contact with the fingerboard. You're gliding across the strings themselves, with only enough downward pressure to put them in contact with the frets. It would NOT make sliding harder to use stepped frets.

I'm keen on the clear idea-- imagine having your beautifully laminated neck-through visible all the way from end-to-end? Spectacular possibilities open up...!

Greg

[ToneMonkey]

There have been some advances in plastic moulding and there really is no need to CNC this idea at great expense. Extremely accurate silicon based molds can easily be made at home for little expense. The trick will be to make the original. Here again though, the model need not be a working prototype, it could be made from plaster or modeling clay, whatever, as long it is accurate for the casting of the original mold.

←

That's what I was on about. I would have a plug made by CNC or Rapid Prototyped so that I could make the mold and keep the original (dead accurate) plug save somewhere.

I'm doubting that you could make the plug yourself, but personally with a complex 3 dimensional like this, especially with dimensions that have to be so accurate, I'd ship it out to be done. I think that if you take into account the radius of the fret board, the distance between frets, getting a constant and uniform shape down the length of the fretboard etc then it'll be a nightmare to make the plug yourself. Not impossible, but still a nightmare.

Anyway, keep us posted on this as it seems like a very cool idea. I'll help where I can as I want to see this

Kaj

[MasterMinds]

The right composite would wear far less than the nickel/silver stuff we use, MasterMinds.... and when making slides on a guitar the way it already is, you're  not making contact with the fingerboard.  You're gliding across the strings themselves, with only enough downward pressure to put them in contact with the frets.  It would NOT make sliding harder to use stepped frets.

I'm keen on the clear idea-- imagine having your beautifully laminated neck-through visible all the way from end-to-end?  Spectacular possibilities open up...!

Greg

←

Well, I guess I am thinking of normal glass. ANd about the sliding i guess you are right. I mean, when sliding we alread slide over top the fret and up on top of each one in the slide - so i guess it would work out.

visually it looks like it would not slide, but i guess physically it's no different.

i really like this idea - so guy who is gonna do it - let us know and perhaps you can make us some step-board necks to screw in and try out - I'd certainly be interested in buying one!

[tirapop]

A couple things come to mind.

Fluke ukuleles use molded plastic fingerboards with integral frets. With nylon strings, fret wear isn't a problem. Back in the '50s/'60s they used to make lots of plastic ukuleles and small guitars with molded frets and nylon strings.

Be aware that molding/casting processes can be inexact. You can have shrinkage issues if the materials have a big temperature change in processing or if they give off byproducts (water, solvents) from chemical reactions.

Epoxies cure with an exothermic reaction, they make heat. Depending on how the heat escapes or is trapped, when the part is in the mold, you can get warpage or springback issues. With this thick-thin-thick-etc profile of the stepped frets, you might get some bow, waviness, or local sinking.

All of those problems can be overcome, but, it might take a good bit of tweaking.

Visually, the stepped frets look cool.

[GuitarGuy]

A couple things come to mind.

Fluke ukuleles use molded plastic fingerboards with integral frets.  With nylon strings, fret wear isn't a problem.  Back in the '50s/'60s they used to make lots of plastic ukuleles and small guitars with molded frets and nylon strings.

Be aware that molding/casting processes can be inexact.  You can have shrinkage issues if the materials have a big temperature change in processing or if they give off byproducts (water, solvents) from chemical reactions. 

Epoxies cure with an exothermic reaction, they make heat.  Depending on how the heat escapes or is trapped, when the part is in the mold, you can get warpage or springback issues.  With this thick-thin-thick-etc profile of the stepped frets, you might get some bow, waviness, or local sinking.

All of those problems can be overcome, but, it might take a good bit of tweaking.

Visually, the stepped frets look cool.

←

I think the shrinkage that epoxies have is negligable compared to the fluctuations in wood. THe accuracy of the average hand made guitar fretboard is probably +-.020 or more. I highly doubt the need for accuracy of a mold would be that great. You're overengineering it a bit.

The hardest part of this would be to create the master with a radius. Becaus you have to cut angled and curved at the same time (3axix) a cnc could mill this but you be hard pressed to do it from a comventional milling process.

The only thing I can think of is a variation of the router radius jig in the reference section. If you made the track so it stepped that could allow for the andgle and curvatue at the same time.

I definitely want to play with this idea.

Edited April 21, 2005 by GuitarGuy

[GregP]

Well, I guess I am thinking of normal glass.

Normal glass would wear even better than a composite. It's just not all that practical.

Greg

[korge]

(Warning - Off Topic)

Thats a nice fret board.. i think i would like it for the cosmetics.. it doesnt look like something i would want ot play when im all sweaty and my fingers are cramped up from playing... espiecially on a solo with bend and slides... ouch!

[LGM Guitars]

I guess I'm still of the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" school.

Basically, all these idea's have been around for years, but when it comes right down to it, fretting with regular frets is still probably the fastest and easiest way. Also the easiest to maintain.

I've worked with many composites, I've also worked as a machinist for quite a few years. Having done those things, I know that I prefer the idea of frets which can be removed if necessary.

Fret heights really need to be within .001" of each other or you'll have major buzzing. Shrinkage in epoxy cures can vary easily by .005" so you would still probably have to level that board.

I see no reason to experiment and try something new, but when I hear people asking about it because it might be easier than using regular frets, well, I just can't see that being the case. Once molds were done and the right material is found maybe for production it will be better, but keep in mind, the best material in terms of wearability in a composite will probably be carbon fiber, but not the cloth type, you need the hard injection molded carbon fiber, this is almost like steel in terms of hardness, BUT, you now need an injection mold (expensive) and a autoclave to cure it to reach that hardness (also very expensive) not to mention the carbon itself is not cheap.

All good things to experiment with if you have the time and money, but as I've come to learn, usually, things are the way they are for a reason, it's true that without experimenting, trying new things, the world would never evolve, but having said that, guitars have been around for a long time, and with current technologies, if a better solution to fretting was available, I think you'd be seeing it by now.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary

[Pr3Va1L]

well, Parker guitars uses a thin reinforcement of ccarbon-glass-epoxy reinforcement on both the neck and the fretboard... maybe that kind of idea would work?

if you could make a very precise wood carving, and put some composite over it, it might work on the warpage issues and such...

my 2c...

[LGM Guitars]

well, Parker guitars uses a thin reinforcement of ccarbon-glass-epoxy reinforcement on both the neck and the fretboard... maybe that kind of idea would work?

if you could make a very precise wood carving, and put some composite over it, it might work on the warpage issues and such...

my 2c...

←

Not quite, their fretboards on the Fly's are carbon, no wood, the frets are baked into the carbon laminate in an autoclave after being laid up in a mold, this is why they use SS frets, because it's near impossible to replace their frets so they just can't be something that wears out quickly.

A thin composite will be strong sure, but will do nothing in the way of wear resistance, Carbon cloth layed up will only be as wear resistant as the epoxy resin it's impregnated with. Most epoxy resins aren't that hard.