Single Pickup - Multi Tones?

[psw]

Hi Guy's.

I have in mind a single pickup guitar. I've got a standard humbucker to be put in the bridge position. The idea is to have my sustainer in the neck position...but that's another story . (a single pickup guitar would be ideal for the sustainer guitar and simplify it's implementation...so that's the motivation)

Basically, i'd like to get a variety of good tones just as you do with two or three pickups and the selector switch and combinations. Is it possible to get a good neck pickup tone from a lead pickup or, perhaps even harder the notched "out of phase" positions 2 and 4 on a strat, type sounds

I'm thinking a simple switchable tone control (cap) might just sound muffled. Correct me if i'm wrong.

I'd be prepared to go active if that's the way to go. I'm even prepared to wind a purpose made pickup for my concept guitar, if people have ideas along those lines.

Anyway, some thoughts and discussion would greatly be appreciated. I'm even prepared to do the experimentation and testing if the ideas are any good.

So, let me have your ideas

psw

[onelastgoodbye]

hehe seems like I'm stalking you psw

Just wanted to add a little something about the actives..if you can track 'em down, mastertonepickups are the absolute best actives on the market. Sort of like what an emg should sound like if they'd continued improving their stuff over the last 20 years. It 's an australian company, but they seem to have vanished since about a year and a half or so . My buddy ordered one from Germany recently, so atleast they're still some in stock somewhere.

Bout the pickup...maybe one that slides back and forth? or a 'split' bucker where one coil is fixed and the other can move position.

[jnewman]

Basically, i'd like to get a variety of good tones just as you do with two or three pickups and the selector switch and combinations. Is it possible to get a good neck pickup tone from a lead pickup or, perhaps even harder the notched "out of phase" positions 2 and 4 on a strat, type sounds

psw

←

Well, you can have both coils of a humbucker in an out-of-phase position with any 4-conductor (standard) humbucker, although it'll stop being hum-cancelling. You can't have two coils both in phase and out of phase and hum cancelling in each, as in one phase their noise signals oppose and in one they reinforce, you just have to decide which will be which.

Also, positions 2 and 4 on a strat aren't actually out-of-phase, they're two in-phase signals in parallel and won't sound much like a humbucker that you put out-of-phase. You'd be better off having a series/parallel switch, probably, if you're trying to get something close to positions 2/4 (you'll be the closest to 4, obviously).

You could have a three-way switch that gave you normal humbucker, coils in parallel (position 4-ish), and one coil split (single-coil-ish). The second two sounds won't be exactly like strat sounds, but they'll at least have that sort of character.

EDIT: If you had a middle single coil, you could use it to get moderately close to strat position 4. The biggest reason a parallel humbucker doesn't sound like position 4 is that the coils aren't far enough apart to have pretty different harmonic signatures. The only difference would arise from the fact that the one coil used from the humbucker is different from a single coil. You could do something like the PRS 513 and have two single-coils in the bridge and a middle single coil, then replace the neck position with your sustainer, but then you wouldn't have exactly a humbucker sound either - it's all little tradeoffs. /EDIT

I don't think you'll ever be able to get good neck pickup tone from a lead pickup because the basis of the neck pickup tone has nothing to do with the pickup itself - it has to do with the different distribution of harmonics (specifically, the distribution of harmonics is more weighted towards the low end in the neck pickup and more towards the high end on the bridge pickup) and greater string travel the further you get from the bridge. There's a good deal of discussion on this if you look around for it, even people who've very carefully measured the individual harmonic levels for bridge and neck pickups all the way up the fretboard. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw that now.

Edited April 29, 2005 by jnewman

[GregP]

It would probably take sophisticated signal modeling like on the Variax to pull it off. I wonder if a piezo'd signal would be a better candidate to perform tonal butchery on than a magnetic pickup?

Greg

[frank falbo]

Besides a Variax I think your best bet is to get one of those quad rails pickups, either from Kramer or Kent Armstrong. Then you have 4 coils total, but if you get the Kramer you'd have to install extra wires onto the coil jumpers because they're hardwired. There's another thread about that one right now.

The outside coils in parallel could sound like the strat 4 position. You could also have a hot rails type of sound, and an "all 4 rails" sound. And I suspect the "all 4 rails" in parallel would sound a lot like the strat 4 position, too, but with more phase cancellation and a sharper high end. I'd also like to try three coils in series, and perhaps mix that with the fourth coil out of phase, so the three coils are overpowering the fourth, but there's still some out of phase sound going on there. That one wouldn't be hum cancelling, but it might sound like a screaming strat single coil bridge sound.

Forget about duplicating neck pickup tones. A bridge pickup with filters is still a bridge pickup. There's no way to create the dynamics, swell, and attack of the neck pickup location, even if you get the frequency response close.

[frank falbo]

Also the Dimarzio Multi Bucker is a quad rail pickup, that's kind of what I made when I combined a Chandler rails with a Kramer rails.

[lovekraft]

How about a varitone? Simple, cheap, easy to implement, endlessly customizable and passive, so there's no battery hassles. Between that and a series-parallel-split switch, you should be able to get a rather large range of tones from a standard humbucker.

[psw]

Thanks LK, that was what I was kind of thinking of but I don't want to get that woolly (err woman) tone and I like the notched sounds. I thought some kind of varitone with an active filtering to knock off the highs or give a notched wha type of sound. I'm not sure if that's possible passively though. I don't mind splitting the 'bucker, etc but you still wont get the variation of individual pickups.

Then again perhaps I'm asking too much, a good guitar, even if it only has one really good sound, should be enough. Dispite my nature, I'm actually trying to get a little less complicated and would like to see the sustainer installed in something sleek and simple.

I was really just thinking a multiposition varitone rotary switch instead of the tone a single volume, the sustainer sensitivity control the on/off and harmonic switches.

So perhaps that's the way to go and I just experiment with caps and the like, maybe some trim pot's inside for experimentalists sake!

anyway, thanks for the replys any links to other places of circuits or threads of interest welcome and I'll post what I discover.

cheers

psw

[JohnH]

I think Id use a 3 pole 4 way rotary switch to get series in-phase, parallel in-phase, single coil and series out-of phase. That would be a full range of tones, in order from fullest to thinnest. Can post a diagram if you are interested

regards

John

[psw]

Thanks JohnH...if you can spare the time.

I wonder if it would be possible to make a 5th position with a treble cut cap to simulate the smoother neck tones. If not, perhaps I could add a PRS type sweet switch (however that works) to access that type of sound.

Seems like a sane suggestion, though

Cheers

pete / psw

[JohnH]

Pete,

No problem, here is what I was thinking of for the switch wiring. a 3P4T is a standard type you can buy (even here in Aus)

I haven't shown volume and tone pots, those could be just standard types after the output

Im not familiar with the PRS switch you mention. If you want to have just a high cut cap, it could be on a mini-toggle switch across the output. I agree with the others though, it wouldnt really sound like a neck pickup.

I hope thats of interest

cheers

John

(Sydney, NSW)

[psw]

Thanks mate, I just happen to have a rotary switch that's suitable floating around somewhere. If I don't find one of the sounds useful I guess I can always stuff about with caps and such anyway as this kind of switch should work out fine.

The sustainer requires two switches and a control knob, and all but the bridge pickup needs to be bypassed during sustain operation. I was thinking that a guitar with only the bridge pickup, but with multiple sounds, would be idea for a guitar featuring this device.

What I may try is to get the sustainer's magnetic field contained enough to have a bridge and middle pickup that will work simultaneously with the sustainer. This will not only give those kind of clucky sounds but when wired the otherway gives a bit of a midrange boost (the opposite of the clucky sound if you get my drift) that's quite nice and is humbucking even with single coils.

appreciate the input

pete

(melb )

[Steve Vai]

I'm not sure if you've thought of this, or it may be too subtle for what you want, but where you pick makes a big difference. If you want a neck pickup sound, you can play closer to the neck, etc. By moving the picking location, I'm totally satisfied with the versitility of a single humbucker guitar.

[psw]

I know what you mean stevie V

While I've been out of it (in hospital) I've been keeping myself company with an acoustic guitar and there's just so much you can do with such a seemingly simple instrument. I don't see why the electric guitar need really be that different. Plus with amps and effects there are enough external toneshaping to be had. Perhaps I'll follow your example and go with a simple good quiet humbucker and improve technique...I'm just attracted by the bells and whistles and shiny chrome.

I'm finding a similar thing with the sustainer. The sensitivity control really isn't something that requires a lot of playing with once it's set up to the guitar, your playing style and the types of things you want to play with it. Really a single on off switch...say a three way, mid off, harmonic one way and normal the other is the way to go. With this no LED or any other glitz is necessary as the position of the switch and the sound and response gives enough of an indication that the thing is on!

Although, I must say, the touch sensitive (momentary on) switch I've got on the thing is pretty cool and has some unique effects. Perhaps I'll check out the digital switching option where these tiny membrane switches are surface mounted...push on / push off for a similar result.

Anyway, good point....there's so much more sounds available with technique than you'll ever get with switches. Are there any other single pickup guys out there?

psw

[Southpa]

Not directly related to your situation but I found a place that might help you decide on where to position your pickup(s). I'm still spending time trying to interpret the results, but its still interesting.

Edited April 30, 2005 by Southpa

[psw]

Gee thanks Southpa...that's really neat isn't it.

It would certainly help in deciding where to place the pickup.

It's pretty intuitive too...just slide that pickup about a bit and see the frequency response change on the graph. Looks like you need to specify frequencies (strings) and play around a little more. It even let's you play with scale length and the effects of multipule pickups so there's quite a bit of depth there isn't there!

It's amazing what people come up with...great stuff...check it out guys

psw

ps...alway's thinking sustainers, I dare say the principle could be reversed to find the best place to fit a sustainer for response and to work out some of the puzzles about bridge mounted drivers and all sorts of questions and theories on "that" other thread I'll post it up there as well southpa!