Your Opinions Please --ebay Harness

[Mickguard]

I came across this....Wiring Harness on Ebay

What do you all think? I'll be working on an LP Jr inspired (i.e., P90-based) project next...is this harness worth it, or could I make my own just as easily for less-- or should I just go with the bits and pieces I already have here?

What's the most important part of the harness? The type of pots? The type of caps?

[possum1284]

I came across this....Wiring Harness on Ebay

What do you all think? I'll be working on an LP Jr inspired (i.e., P90-based) project next...is this harness worth it, or could I make my own just as easily for less-- or should I just go with the bits and pieces I already have here?

What's the most important part of the harness? The type of pots? The type of caps?

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thats like $15 worth of parts. the wiring is very simple id do it myself but thats me. seems a bit pricey $33 with shipping.

adam

[Gemleggat]

What a rip off! well not really. Cloth wire doesn't make your guitar sound better! I hate this vintage stuff=better. just get 2 good pots and a nice cap and make a better version.

BTW CTS pots break just as often as any other good pot i have ever used, they are of resonable quality. Panasonic make really good pots sometimes $100 each, never seen one in a guitar though.

[Mickguard]

Okay, I've been wondering about all this--I asked a similar question before (i.e., is there a difference between small pots and big pots like these...the consensus was no, there's not.)

But is there a real difference in the types of caps you use?--like the old Gibsons used to use 'bumblebee' caps, whatever they are...but mostly I see those little brown/red blob thingamajigs... (I've got plenty of those here...)

Anyway, I can get a meter of cloth wire here for 8 euros.. that's enough for 20 harnesses like this...I've got plenty of pots and jacks too (you can tell I'm a 'harvester')

...the only thing I'm really missing are the caps --except, is it possible to harvest caps?

For example, I've got this old effects box--some homemade thing that put out a modulated rhythm...inside there are a number of caps...are they useful for guitars? Is there a way to identify their values (if that's not printed on)...

[lovekraft]

I'm with Gemleggat all the way - there's nothing there that's gonna sound any better than a couple of two dollar Alpha pots, a 39¢ Xicon film cap and Radio Shack hookup wire. It'll sell easily because it looks like it came out of a vintage axe, but there's no real mojo there, and using Mallory 150s at pickup level voltages is downright silly! Make your own!

[GodBlessTexas]

I'm with Gemleggat all the way - there's nothing there that's gonna sound any better than a couple of two dollar Alpha pots, a  39¢ Xicon film cap and Radio Shack hookup wire. It'll sell easily because it looks like it came out of a vintage axe, but there's no real mojo there, and using Mallory 150s at pickup level voltages is downright silly! Make your own!

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+2. Nothing in that auction is going to be better than what lovekraft described. That guy is just looking to prey upon the "vintage is better" crowd. In some ways vintage is better, but not in the terms of electronics.

Let's see a cost breakdown:

500k CTS pots - $3.75 each retail = $7.50 total

Switchcraft jack - $2.50 retail = $10.00 total

Cloth wire - $3.95 for five feat. This guy used about 8" total. so $3.95/60" = $.065/inch = $.054 = $10.54 total

Malory .022uf 150 cap - $1.85 retail = $12.39 total

He gets $10.60 bucks for a couple of minutes of soldering, and another $8 for shipping, which he'll pay $3.50 to USPS for Priority Mail where they provide the shipping box. So that's a total of $30.99 shipped, with a profit of $15.10 in profit; capitalism at work! And most likely, looking at the amount of harnesses he's selling on eBay, he probably buys his pots, wire, and jacks in bulk at a significant discount over retail. Nothing against him though, it's just not worth the money he's asking, especially for the 4 pots harnesses he wants over $60 for.

And there's no reason not to harvest caps if you want to, but they're so cheap that there's no reason to unless you want to.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

[Jehle]

Interesting idea. It may not be worth it to some of you guys. If someone wanted to have the wiring done for them though, this would solve 90% of their problems.

There are tons of "how do I wire this?" threads on here. It's tempting to make a competitive product with all the cheaper parts and state "there's no mojo in aged parts. Buy this to simplify your guitar build or rewire job."

[Mickguard]

Interesting idea.  It may not be worth it to some of you guys. If someone wanted to have the wiring done for them though, this would solve 90% of their problems.

There are tons of "how do I wire this?" threads on here.  It's tempting to make a competitive product with all the cheaper parts and state "there's no mojo in aged parts. Buy this to simplify your guitar build or rewire job."

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Sure, there'd be nothing wrong with that...especially if you charge fair shipping charges...

[lovekraft]

I really don't think you could sell enough reasonably priced harnesses on Evilbay to make it worth the trouble, simply because the guys who can't/won't wire a standard guitar setup are the same credulous consumers who totally buy into the whole "these solder joints were aged with N.O.S. sweat from Leo Fender's hatband" silliness. After all, (present company excepted, for the most part ), guitar players are a gullible, insecure, superstitious lot who want to be told what's cool, and they've heard since the 50s that, with the right attention to inconsequential detail, they too can be a hot guitar player, the envy of all men, and the secret passion of all women! I'd like to think differently, but experience prevents me.

I think EMG has the right idea with the "modular" plugs - somebody should expand on that, with a set of compatible connectors that simply wouldn't let you hook things up wrong, and a color-coding system, like a Lego construction set for guitar wiring! Think about it, you could reroute your wiring between sets at a gig!

BTW, idch, those little brown/red blob thingamajigs will do the job every bit as well as that fancy Mallory 150, so harvest away!

[JoeAArthur]

capitalism at work!

I don't think so... capitalism ain't about screwing people. Capitalism is an economic theory where prices for goods are eventually reduced through competition.

Screwing someone is what this guy is doing. I agree completely with your price breakdowns... but even some of those are high. $2.50 for an output jack??? $1.85 for a cap??? I'm glad I don't shop where you do!!

[bluespresence]

After all, (present company excepted, for the most part wink.gif ), guitar players are a gullible, insecure, superstitious lot who want to be told what's cool, and they've heard since the 50s that, with the right attention to inconsequential detail, they too can be a hot guitar player, the envy of all men, and the secret passion of all women! I'd like to think differently, but experience prevents me.

Spoken like a true BASS player!! I love it!! I'll stop laughing at that in an hour or two - Thanks!!

Re: Capitalism: I pay for a lot of stuff I don't have time or talent to build. Call it capitalism, call it paying for what you want or need. How many guys on here still buy their necks (me for one)? They make a LOT more than $10 on a neck that is factory built but it doesn't stop us from dropping the cash down on one does it?

Edited September 23, 2005 by bluespresence

[blackburncustomguitars]

Hi,

Go to www.rsguitarworks.net and get one of their wiring upgrades. You can get the parts, including a Hovland cap or you can have them solder it for you. Look for Melodymaker stuff or any other configuration. My costomers love the stuff they do.

Peace,

Dave

I came across this....Wiring Harness on Ebay

What do you all think? I'll be working on an LP Jr inspired (i.e., P90-based) project next...is this harness worth it, or could I make my own just as easily for less-- or should I just go with the bits and pieces I already have here?

What's the most important part of the harness? The type of pots? The type of caps?

←

[lovekraft]

I have to agree with bluespresence - this guy isn't ripping anybody off, he's simply applying the marketing standards that the market has dictated, and saying the things people want to hear to get them to buy his product. If there weren't wealthy audiphools, there would never have been a market for $1000 silver/tellurium alloy speaker cables, but it turns out that "if you make it expensive enough, they will buy it!". Any item offered for sale is worth exactly what someone will pay for it, and you can bet that the guys buying those vintage-style harnesses for their Epiphone LPs are satisfied, and convinced that their guitar sounds better because of the new harness. The whole "older (and more expensive) is better" mystique is about making people feel warm and fuzzy (and above all, superior), and you can't put a price on that, can you?

And I'm sorry, Dave, I'm sure they do nice work, but putting a Hovland cap in a passive guitar circuit borders on madness! The fact that Hovland even makes a $12.95 retail cap for guitars is a symptom of the whole problem. I'm sorry, I gotta go - if I've offended anybody, please see the following disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: No disrespect was intended towards any persons, institutions, ethnic groups, religious sects, political parties, corporations or Supreme Beings. No legal or medical advice was implied, nor should any statement be interpreted as being accurate or factual. This post should be considered a work of fiction, and any resemblance to any person or persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. You should probably ignore the entire post.

[JoeAArthur]

I have to agree with bluespresence - this guy isn't ripping anybody off, he's simply applying the marketing standards that the market has dictated

Please post a link to these marketing standards that the market has dictated. I'd be interested in reading them.

Thanks... in advance!!

[JoeAArthur]

I have to agree with bluespresence - this guy isn't ripping anybody off, he's simply applying the marketing standards that the market has dictated

Please post a link to these marketing standards that the market has dictated. I'd be interested in reading them.

Thanks... in advance!!

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Hey lovekraft!!

I just talked to a couple of friends of mine. They laughed at me when I mentioned "marketing standards". They said it was an oxymoron... like "military intelligence".

But when I said there was this entity called "the market" that actually dictates these standards... well, that was just too much for them to comprehend!!

Please post that link so I can shut these guys up!!

Thanks again,

Joe

[erikbojerik]

...with the right attention to inconsequential detail, they too can be a hot guitar player, the envy of all men, and the secret passion of all women!

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Hehehe...these guys don't realize. 99% of the time, it ain't the arrow...it's the indian.

I don't think the guy's necessarily a rip-off artist. You charge what the market will bear, people will vote with their wallets. That's -->

[GodBlessTexas]

capitalism at work!

I don't think so... capitalism ain't about screwing people. Capitalism is an economic theory where prices for goods are eventually reduced through competition.

Did you actually read the entire thing, including where I said there was no point in paying for that guy for a wiring harness when you can do it yourself? I thought it was clear that it was sarcasm. Read in context, it should be crystal clear. You did read the rest of it, didn't you?

Screwing someone is what this guy is doing.  I agree completely with your price breakdowns... but even some of those are high.  $2.50 for an output jack??? $1.85 for a cap???  I'm glad I don't shop where you do!! 

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It's only screwing someone if they pay it, and I don't know if you've noticed, but guitar players get screwed all the time over tone voodoo they've been brainwashed into believing. It's silly how superstitious guitar players are.

Retail prices were all taken from several online stores, including universaljems.com for the same parts. I didn't say that's what I paid, nor is it what I do pay, only that's what a lot of places charged. I can wire a guitar for less than $10 for one volume and one tone.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

[JoeAArthur]

Did you actually read the entire thing, including where I said there was no point in paying for that guy for a wiring harness when you can do it yourself?  I thought it was clear that it was sarcasm.  Read in context, it should be crystal clear.  You did read the rest of it, didn't you?

 

Actually, yes, I did read the entire thing.

But no... I don't exactly see where you said "there was no point in paying for that guy for a wiring harness when you can do it yourself". I still can't see where you said that, so I would appreciate it if you would point it out to me... my old eyes would appreciate it also.

And to be truthful, I also didn't understand what you meant by

And there's no reason not to harvest caps if you want to, but they're so cheap that there's no reason to unless you want to.

I read that several times... and I still ain't got a clue. I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me so next time I can see the crystal clarity of it all.

Thanks!!

[javacody]

idch, I'll give you my opinion on the harness, as thats what you actually asked about.

First, how well can you solder?

If you know how to solder, then in my opinion, you would be better off doing this yourself.

I do use fancy caps, and I understand that they probably don't do anything more than the cheap caps, but I like em anyway.

One thing about RS Guitarworks, is that they will actually test the pots and if you want a 500k pot, then you will get a 500k pot. Normally, they would be anywhere from 350k to 450k.

Another nice thing about vintage wire, cloth type at least, is you don't have to strip any wire, just slide the cloth back.

It does look cool too. Some folks care about how their cavities look. Some don't. Who am I to judge? That would make me like most of the posters in this thread.

[lovekraft]

Normally, they would be anywhere from 350k to 450k.

Actually, the tolerance on most pots is +/- 20%, which would make any pot between 400K and 600K "in spec" - if you can show me that there's an audible difference between a 400K pot and a 500K pot, I promise I'll start using those expensive blue ALPS precision pots - BTW, CTS pots are 20% tolerance too. If you want to use expensive specialty stuff to make your cavities look cool, that's fine with me - just don't try to convince me it sounds better, or that it's worth more money.

But when I said there was this entity called "the market" that actually dictates these standards... well, that was just too much for them to comprehend!!

I won't comment on your friends, but the market always dictates the prevailing marketing techniques and standards - educated, demanding consumers won't respond to mysteries and mojo. Like erikbojerik said, people vote with their wallets. Your friends are the market, and they directly dictate how manufacturers pitch products to them. I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, or if you're just a confrontational individual, but that's as plain as I can express it - if you and your friends are still confounded by it, please feel free to ignore it!

[javacody]

Actually, the tolerance on most pots is +/- 20%, which would make any pot between 400K and 600K "in spec" - if you can show me that there's an audible difference between a 400K pot and a 500K pot, I promise I'll start using those expensive blue ALPS precision pots - BTW, CTS pots are 20% tolerance too. If you want to use expensive specialty stuff to make your cavities look cool, that's fine with me - just don't try to convince me it sounds better, or that it's worth more money. ]

Yes, that is the tolerance, but from what I understand, in real life, they tend to be in the lower K range of the spectrum. RS guitarworks will sell you a tested set at much closer to 500K. Yeah, a single pot off 50k won't be a big deal, but when all four are off 100K or more?

I also wasn't suggesting anything sounded better (kind of like you were putting words in my mouth?), nor was I judging others for their preferences.

I'm also not understanding the overly argumentative response? Are you addressing me? Others in this thread? Or the seller on ebay? You quoted me, and then went on to address things that I never spoke to. Can you please clarify?

[Mickguard]

Hey, java....sure I know how to solder...first thing I learned when I started modding my guitars...made a real mess of it at first, now it's a piece of cake...

The funny thing is that my Melody Maker had all that 'vintage' wiring stuff in there --because the guitar's 40 years old!

Of course, EVERY bit of it fell apart or was taken out or replaced along the way...and you know what, it's still my favorite guitar.

But I was curious about this one --thanks all for setting things straight.

As for whether it's worth the price...well, part of me says sure...why not...I mean, people buy those Saga kits, right, so why not this guy's stuff?

And where I am, I can't find anything in the stores...so I have to find it online...factor in time wasted hunting down parts (because I never can seem to get everything at the same place in the same order) and then postage, and then time waiting for all the individual packages to arrive...it's tempting to buy a setup like this just for that reason.

Of course, the other part of me is too cheap and too proud to let someone else do this work for me...hell, I love learning new things. Going to try my hand at engraving...yeah, yeah, I know, but I got this idea...

I'm even --gasp-- seriously considering building most of the neck for my next project...I'm still going to need to find someone to do the fretboard for me....I have to face reality and recognize that there's no way I'll ever have that kind of precision...well, not for a couple years yet....

[javacody]

Yeah, I'm one of those people who really like to do it myself as well. You know what they say, if you want a job done right, do it yourself.

I feel the same way about fretboards. If I'm going to make my own, I'm going to get some maple scraps and practice first. For finishing my first guitar (have a ways to go), I'm going to do what you are doing and buy a fretboard already slotted.

[lovekraft]

I also wasn't suggesting anything sounded better (kind of like you were putting words in my mouth?), nor was I judging others for their preferences...I'm also not understanding the overly argumentative response?

Sorry if I gave you that impression - I don't judge others for their preferences, either, I simply want those who know less about this stuff to understand that when they buy a twelve dollar pot or cap, all they're getting is something that looks cool and costs a lot (Braggin' rights - "These go to eleven!"), not a tonal upgrade. It's OK for well-off middle aged fanboys to seek out and buy the most expensive possible components to make themselves feel good about their playing, but it's not OK to convince younger and less experienced players that they have to have a fancy expensive wiring harness to sound great, and that's all I'm trying to get across - no reflection on you. At least you don't subscribe to Ansil's "Werewolf Repelling" silver wire mojo! Again, no offense intended - I do feel strongly about this issue, so if I came off too intense, my bad!

[GodBlessTexas]

Did you actually read the entire thing, including where I said there was no point in paying for that guy for a wiring harness when you can do it yourself?  I thought it was clear that it was sarcasm.  Read in context, it should be crystal clear.  You did read the rest of it, didn't you?

Actually, yes, I did read the entire thing.

But no... I don't exactly see where you said "there was no point in paying for that guy for a wiring harness when you can do it yourself". I still can't see where you said that, so I would appreciate it if you would point it out to me... my old eyes would appreciate it also.

Then you might want to look again.

First, it starts with:

+2.  Nothing in that auction is going to be better than what lovekraft described.  That guy is just looking to prey upon the "vintage is better" crowd.  In some ways vintage is better, but not in the terms of electronics.

Then I wrap it up with...

Nothing against him though, it's just not worth the money he's asking, especially for the 4 pots harnesses he wants over $60 for.

And to be truthful, I also didn't understand what you meant by

And there's no reason not to harvest caps if you want to, but they're so cheap that there's no reason to unless you want to.

I read that several times... and I still ain't got a clue. I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me so next time I can see the crystal clarity of it all.

Someone asked it if was ok to harvest capacitors from existing gear they've got. I said there was no reason not to do it that I know of, other than the fact that capacitors are so cheap that I didn't see the point in doing it unless you wanted to.

I get the impression you're intentionally being a troll. I'm observant like that.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...