8 String Bass Completed

[Geoff St. Germaine]

For the 10 string, are you thinking about graduated string spacing? It appears that the string spacing on this bass is more or less uniform(it looks to be slightly graduated). You might be able to substantially reduced the fretboard width if you play around with the string spacing. On a 10 string, I imagine it's pretty important that you watch how wide you're making your neck.

peace,

russ

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The 10 is going to have fanned frets. It's going to be a slow project. So far I have the woods for it. The neck is from the same blank as this one, the fretboard is bookmatched pau ferro (it's hard to get pau ferro at 5"+) and the body is butternut with a flamed red oak top. The graduated string spacing is very interesting and a very good idea. Given that the string gauge will be so radically different (.165 - .010 or so) it would be a good idea to have the string spacing like this. I think that the Adler 12 string bass has spacing like this. The only thing that I'm worried about is whether this will mess up the fanned frets. I'll have to look into this.

Cheers,

Geoff

[thegarehanman]

Ooo, yes, that could possibly mess up the fanned frets. This might not be correct, but I'm thinking the fanned frets would be ok w/ the graduated string spacing as long as the increase in string spacing is linear. I don't know if that's right though. Man, now you've got me pondering this. I know there's got to be a way to do it. You just have to be strategic about string spacing and fret spacing. I may get back to you on this.

peace,

russ

[thegarehanman]

I'm sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. It's possible. You would just have to be carefull about where you put your bridge. You could just measure from the nut to the 12th fret and double it. You'll have to compensate that, but you can use stewmac's fret calculator for that. So yes, it's possible. I scold myself for not realizing that from the begining.

[scottyd]

someone should do a fan frets tutorial, the thought of multiple scale lengths has always interested me

[thegarehanman]

You get the tutorial when you pay the $75 for the single instrument license(I'm not saying you have to fork over the $75...I'm saying it's 'illegal' not to ). It really doesn't require a tutorial. You figure out your outer string's scale lengths and connect the dots. You determine the bridge position of your inner frets by measureing from the nut to the 12th fret directly where the string will be placed, or if you're using an even string spacing, you connect the dots of the outer single string bridges. I imagin you could get in some legal trouble for making a tutorial on how to do that since the system is pattented.

peace,

russ

Edited November 22, 2005 by thegarehanman

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I'm sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. It's possible. You would just have to be carefull about where you put your bridge. You could just measure from the nut to the 12th fret and double it. You'll have to compensate that, but you can use stewmac's fret calculator for that. So yes, it's possible. I scold myself for not realizing that from the begining.

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I actually have a little excel file that calculates all of my fret locations for me.

I'll have a talk with Sheldon Dingwall about this the next time I'm at his shop (maybe next week). I recall thinking about this before... I'll have to think it over again.

[GregP]

Fanned frets largely take care of themselves. Think about it-- when you see an instrument with fanned frets, the frets themselves are still straight, right? No need to calculate the distances for each string. You simply make the low string a different scale than the high string, decide which fret is exactly perpendicular (ie. the 12th! Perfect choice! ), and take it from there. It's just connecting the dots after that. No matter what your string spacing ends up being, as long as your low string and high string are figured out, everything in-between will naturally fall into place.

That doesn't mean that in execution it'll be easy. Unlike a standard fretboard, you can't just cut the slots at 90 degrees. I'd imagine (haven't done it myself!) that the difficulty is in getting each different slot lined up and precisely cut.

To get the right distances at the bridge, you almost have to use individual one-string "bridges" like the one on the bass of this thread, though.

Speaking of this bass--

I am too much of a schmuck with bass to go beyond 5 strings (actually, I'm quite happy with 4!), but I absolutely love the design and execution of this particular instrument. Unbelievable work. GOTM contender, for sure!

Greg

[!!METAL MATT!!]

HOLY CRAP!! That bass is deadly

!!METAL MATT!!

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Fanned frets largely take care of themselves.  Think about it-- when you see an instrument with fanned frets, the frets themselves are still straight, right?  No need to calculate the distances for each string.  You simply make the low string a different scale than the high string, decide which fret is exactly perpendicular (ie. the 12th!  Perfect choice!  ), and take it from there.  It's just connecting the dots after that.  No matter what your string spacing ends up being, as long as your low string and high string are figured out, everything in-between will naturally fall into place.

The thing is that as soon as you deviate from uniform string to string spacing it means the string may not see the same scale length the whole way down the string. In order to have graduated string spacing, there'd have to be a similar graduation at both ends so that the strings don't wind up seeing different scale lengths.

That said most fanned fret stuff I've seen (and the Dingwall Prima 6 String I own) have the 7th fret perpendicular as otherwise there can be a lot of angle at the nut.

That doesn't mean that in execution it'll be easy.  Unlike a standard fretboard, you can't just cut the slots at 90 degrees.  I'd imagine (haven't done it myself!) that the difficulty is in getting each different slot lined up and precisely cut. 

To get the right distances at the bridge, you almost have to use individual one-string "bridges" like the one on the bass of this thread, though.

Indi bridges or a custom milled bridge... I've seen an ETS bridge for a 12 string bass (not in courses) that is fanned and is a one piece. It's pretty sweet looking.

Speaking of this bass--

I am too much of a schmuck with bass to go beyond 5 strings (actually, I'm quite happy with 4!), but I absolutely love the design and execution of this particular instrument.  Unbelievable work.  GOTM contender, for sure!

Greg

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Thanks a bunch for the compliment.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

HOLY CRAP!!   That bass is deadly

!!METAL MATT!!

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Thanks. Hey another guy from Saskatoon. Love the Impaler!

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I guess I'll put this guy in the GOTM next month.

Thanks a lot guys!

[Phil Mailloux]

Very nice bass Geoff, i like it! 

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Thanks Phil. I love your fretless 6!

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Well! thanks very much for the compliment

I got a bunch of questions for you now

My next bass will be a 7 string. I want those ETS singles for them. Did you get the 50mm or 60mm ones?

Do you like them?

How was the shipping/handling fees? Expensive?

I'm not sure I got what the problem was with your wiring problems but I've got sort of the same problem with my fretless 6. The two pickups are connected are connected on a blend pot. When connected passively they both work fine but when I added the OBP-1 to this, all of a sudden the bridge pup went silent. No matter what I do and how long I play around with the connections it still stays silent. When I take out the preamp and connect passive again then they both work

I got my blend pot through stewmac.

Is that a bit what your problem is too?

[!!METAL MATT!!]

Thanks. Hey another guy from Saskatoon. Love the Impaler!

Hey slick your in saskatoon!! We have to meet up some time and have A drink

I would love to see that monster in person! I'll even release the impaler from it's chains and let it have A go at you

You would be the 3rd guy from PG that ive meet so far

Any way how long have you know Dingwall? Did he help ya with this bass

!!METAL MATT!!

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Well! thanks very much for the compliment 

I got a bunch of questions for you now 

My next bass will be a 7 string. I want those ETS singles for them. Did you get the 50mm or 60mm ones?

Do you like them?

How was the shipping/handling fees? Expensive?

The bridges came to $160 US with shipping. They are the 60 mm ones. I love these bridges, they are very well built, very well finished and they look very nice. Also, ETS can customize them for a very reasonable price. I'll be putting these same bridges on the fretless brother, though I'll likely be using the piezo version.

I'm not sure I got what the problem was with your wiring problems but I've got sort of the same problem with my fretless 6. The two pickups are connected are connected on a blend pot. When connected passively they both work fine but when I added the OBP-1 to this, all of a sudden the bridge pup went silent. No matter what I do and how long I play around with the connections it still stays silent. When I take out the preamp and connect passive again then they both work 

I got my blend pot through stewmac.

Is that a bit what your problem is too?

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My problem was that I have two channels of vol/blend (for fast switching between two settings with a 4PDT switch) and one of the channels did not work correctly. This morning I was able to see that one of the volume pots is defective. Hopefully all is well now, once I get a new pot.

[GregP]

The thing is that as soon as you deviate from uniform string to string spacing it means the string may not see the same scale length the whole way down the string.  In order to have graduated string spacing, there'd have to be a similar graduation at both ends so that the strings don't wind up seeing different scale lengths.

Ah, but that's the sneaky bit. It will! Even if you put the 2nd-lowest string an inch away from the lowest, and the subsequent string only 1/8" away from THAT string, each of them will see its own scale length correctly. It's one of those wonderful times that math just allows everything to work out.

Greg

[thegarehanman]

The main concern is putting your bridge in the right place. For you to place the bridge(s) correctly, you'll first have to know the string spacing you want at the bridge and the string spacing you want at the nut. You need to know exactly where the string is going to lie on the fretboard so you can calculate your scale length for each string appropriately. Other than that, the only other hard part I could forsee would be cutting the angled fret slots. If you get stewmac's tablesaw fretsaw blade and put it into a radial arm saw, it shouldn't take very long to cut an accurate board. You could do it by hand with a fretsaw, but on a 10 string fretboard with fanned frets(a lot of the fret slots will be way, way longer than if it was a normal fretboard), I wouldn't even want to think about the time it would take to do it by hand.

peace,

russ

[GregP]

Well, the placement of the bridge is still important for how the strings will relate to one another in terms of spacing, it's true.

BUT, scale length does not and in fact SHOULD not be calculated for each individual string. You do the scale length for the lowest and highest strings, connect the dots, and everything else lines up properly for scale length. It's math.

Now, we know that bridges are generally compensated, but that's due to differences in tension of individual strings, not due to different scale lengths for each. If your low string is, say, a 38" scale, and your highest string is 35" (or whatever), then you put a dot at the right spot 38" away from the nut slot, the high one at the right spot 35" away from its corresponding nut slot, and then draw a line.

The saddles on your bridges are moved forward as far as they will go while remaining stable, and then the point of contact with the saddle is on the line you drew, no matter how you've decided to graduate the string spacing.

Then, once you've strung up, you can compensate individually. Compensation will always require that you move the saddle back from its true scale length, never forward.

Greg

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Thanks. Hey another guy from Saskatoon. Love the Impaler!

Hey slick your in saskatoon!! We have to meet up some time and have A drink

I would love to see that monster in person! I'll even release the impaler from it's chains and let it have A go at you

You would be the 3rd guy from PG that ive meet so far

Any way how long have you know Dingwall? Did he help ya with this bass

!!METAL MATT!!

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Hey,

No, Sheldon didn't help me with the bass. I've known Sheldon pretty much since I bought my first Dingwall bass in 1999. I didn't meet him in person until I moved here about a year and a half ago. I try to get into his shop every couple of months to say hi and check out what's new around there. He's a really nice guy.

We should definitely meet up sometime.

Cheers,

Geoff

[Geoff St. Germaine]

The thing is that as soon as you deviate from uniform string to string spacing it means the string may not see the same scale length the whole way down the string.  In order to have graduated string spacing, there'd have to be a similar graduation at both ends so that the strings don't wind up seeing different scale lengths.

Ah, but that's the sneaky bit. It will! Even if you put the 2nd-lowest string an inch away from the lowest, and the subsequent string only 1/8" away from THAT string, each of them will see its own scale length correctly. It's one of those wonderful times that math just allows everything to work out.

Greg

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You're not getting exactly what I'm saying. It will work out as long as the graduation is the same between the strings. For example, if the middle string (assuming an odd number of strings) is halfway between the two outside strings at both the nut and bridge then you're fine. However, if it is halfway at the nut, but the bridge has some graduated string spacing that doesn't have the string halfway in between, then there's going to be a problem. Also, for your 1/8" string, the nut has to be spaced proportionally. All that I'm saying is that if graduated string spacing is done at the bridge, then care must be taken that this is mirrored at the nut.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Geoff St. Germaine

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Well, the placement of the bridge is still important for how the strings will relate to one another in terms of spacing, it's true.

BUT, scale length does not and in fact SHOULD not be calculated for each individual string.  You do the scale length for the lowest and highest strings, connect the dots, and everything else lines up properly for scale length.  It's math. 

Now, we know that bridges are generally compensated, but that's due to differences in tension of individual strings, not due to different scale lengths for each.  If your low string is, say, a 38" scale, and your highest string is 35" (or whatever), then you put a dot at the right spot 38" away from the nut slot, the high one at the right spot 35" away from its corresponding nut slot, and then draw a line.

The saddles on your bridges are moved forward as far as they will go while remaining stable, and then the point of contact with the saddle is on the line you drew, no matter how you've decided to graduate the string spacing.

Then, once you've strung up, you can compensate individually.  Compensation will always require that you move the saddle back from its true scale length, never forward.

Greg

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I think that we're agreeing but not realizing it.

[thegarehanman]

GregP. I think this is just slightly more complicated than you realise. Placing the bridges would be a matter of simply "connecting the dots" if the string spacing was uniform. However, if the string spacing is not uniform and the frets are fanned, the increase or decrease in scale length is not linear like it would be for an instrument with even string spacing and fanned frets. Draw it out on paper, I'm certain I'm correct in this case. Now, there is one thing I will mention: the difference in scale length between what it would be with even string spacing and what it is with graduated string spacing may be so minute that it could be corrected by placing the bridges where they would normally(on a fanned fret guitar) be and intonating them accordingly.

Really, the best idea in this instance would be to draw out your fanned fret fretboard and your string spacing at the nut. After determining your string spacing at the bridge, you could determine what your scale lengths need to be.

peace,

russ

[GregP]

Or, perhaps you're overestimating how complicated it needs to be.

Even on a regular guitar or bass with perpendicular frets, the single scale doesn't end up being absolutely perfect, because the nut is generally narrower than the bridge. This would be the same thing... no matter how you graduate the strings, they will be more or less accurate just by connecting the dots, as I've said. If you have some sort of insane graduation whereby the strings have huge gaps at the nut and only wee gaps at the bridge (ie. the opposite shape of the norm) then I suppose you'd run into intonation problems... not to mention a flawed design.

If the graduation at the nut follows the same ratio as the graduation at the bridge, your guitar will intonate even MORE correctly than a single-scale (not fanned) instrument with even spacing at the nut and bridge. If the ratio of graduation is a bit different at the bridge than at the nut, as long as it's still within reasonable parameters, it'll end up being at least as good, if not better, than a standard instrument.

In terms of approach, there's nothing wrong with doing a drawing first, either. Then the perpendicular fret would be determined by the way the dots got connected, rather than deciding which fret is perpendicular first.

Either with a top-down or bottom-up approach, I think we can all agree that actually cutting the slots would be the tough part.

[thegarehanman]

It's true, we're really grasping at straws trying to get it perfect. You have a valid point. If it were me, there'd be no question in my mind that I'd be buying the stewmac tablesaw blade to put in my radial arm saw. I couldn't justify the grief hand slotting a board like that would cause me. It would lead me to alcoholism.

[M_A_T_T]

Beautiful work. A couple questions - What's up with the string windings on the lower strings in this pic:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geo...ss/DSC06543.jpg

The windings seem to start a 1/2" off the saddles. Is this normal? Does it affect the sound?

And is there an alignment issue with the low B string? It seems to be nudged off to one side in this pic:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c244/geo...s/HackBass1.jpg

[erikbojerik]

What's up with the string windings on the lower strings in this pic:

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Those look to be taper-core strings. Ken Smith??