8 String Bolt-on Bass!

[Jon]

Since I need about $400 per bass to finish up my current builds, I'm working on another project until I get the money to finish them. Infact, I'm about to be working on 3 builds for friends.

This will be an 8-string bolt-on bass. Tuning should be F#, B, E, A, D, G, C, F. The body will consist of (L - R) White Ash, Rosewood veneer, Maple, Wenge, Maple, Rosewood veneer, White Ash. There will be a bookmatched piece of Wenge over the top as well. I haven't started on the neck yet, but the center laminate will be Wenge. Progress pictures!

Wenge top, sexy!

Picture of the Ash before it was cut

Wings cut

Right wing, rosewood veneer, and maple laminate being glued

[erikbojerik]

Bolt on? Looks like a neck-thru to me.

An interesting choice of woods. I can't recall anyone here making a single-cut bass, this might be the first.

[skibum5545]

If I recall, didn't loosetoe make a singlecut spalted bass a while back?

(I just checked; he did, but all the pictures are gone )

Anyway, I like where this is going. The wenge and ash is a combo I wouldn't have thought of, but the two really open-grained woods complement each other nicely--not to mention how nice they'll sound together, too!

Keep up the good work. Any hint as to pickups, hardware, wiring, etc?

[Jon]

Bolt on? Looks like a neck-thru to me.

An interesting choice of woods. I can't recall anyone here making a single-cut bass, this might be the first.

Originally it was going to be a neck-thru. But after I figured the neck would be about 5 inches thick at the bottom, the scale of the wings were WAY too big. It would have totalled to be 17-19 inches wide. So I'm slowly learning how to scale instruments accordingly to the amount of strings on them.

If I recall, didn't loosetoe make a singlecut spalted bass a while back?

(I just checked; he did, but all the pictures are gone )

Anyway, I like where this is going. The wenge and ash is a combo I wouldn't have thought of, but the two really open-grained woods complement each other nicely--not to mention how nice they'll sound together, too!

Keep up the good work. Any hint as to pickups, hardware, wiring, etc?

I agree, it's a great combination. I was a little worried about using two white woods side by side, by the rosewood splits them apart and gives the body a great definition. Ash is a tricky wood, it's my first time working with it. If I push on it hard enough, I can dent it. Soft stuff! Pickups? Not sure. It really depends on what my income will be over the next month or two. If I have quite a bit extra, I'm going to ask the guys at Nordstrand to custom wind a couple for me. Hardware? Black most likely. Electronics? I plan on making this a passive double humbucker bass- 24-28ish frets so I can do this. It will be knobless as well, much like Stewart McKinsey's basses (One hell of a bassist). I have so many active basses with loads of knobs, it's about time I have a more simple instrument. This is my dream bass project as well! It may not turn out right this time, but I'll be trying until I get it right.

Got the Wenge laminate glued on the right wing earlier. Picture here.

The reason it really does look like a neck-thru is because I'm making the center laminates of the body look like the center laminates of the neck. Just like how Phil did his last bass. (here)

[Phil Mailloux]

So I'm slowly learning how to scale instruments accordingly to the amount of strings on them.

I usually keep my basses at 13" wide. I wouldn't add more than 1/2" for an 8 string. The pictures look quite nice Jon, You're really going at this heavily since that white refinish just a few months ago

Will the center laminates in the body be in the middle of the neck? It looks like they'll be offset towards the upper horn. I'm probably just basing this on the fact you've got a sort of neck heel thing on the lower horn so I'm a bit confused as to how you'll bolt it on.

[Jon]

So I'm slowly learning how to scale instruments accordingly to the amount of strings on them.

I usually keep my basses at 13" wide. I wouldn't add more than 1/2" for an 8 string. The pictures look quite nice Jon, You're really going at this heavily since that white refinish just a few months ago

Spot on! This bass is about 13 1/2" wide, give or take a 1/16th. It will need to be scaled down a very small amount to accommodate the 13 1/4" Wenge top. I do plan on doing something like this for a living. It's a lot of fun. Even the stress is fun!

Will the center laminates in the body be in the middle of the neck? It looks like they'll be offset towards the upper horn. I'm probably just basing this on the fact you've got a sort of neck heel thing on the lower horn so I'm a bit confused as to how you'll bolt it on.

Yep, I'm going to try and make the neck look like it's a part of the body. So the center laminates of the neck will be Maple / Wenge / Maple. I'm really not positive on how I'm going to do the left horn (the one that is more large). But it will be similar to this.

I'm probably going to route the neck pocket to fit the neck before it is rounded / shaped with a rasp. That way I don't have to figure out some crazy way to fit the shaped neck onto the bass.

The Wenge laminate glued on nicely. I am currently waiting for the glue to dry from the left wing being glued with the rosewood veneer / maple laminate. Sometime tomorrow morning I will finish planing these down so they're all at the correct thickness and do the second to last glue job. Then on goes the Wenge top!

[Jon]

So here's the body so far. Can't see the Indian Rosewood veneers too well in the picture.

I have ran into two problems though. When I was doing the first gluing right wing to the laminates (picture here) It pulled the area left of the horn inward and glued that way. This gave it a slight curve. I figure bending it outward while gluing the Wenge on would correct it. It helped, but not enough. This wood is so soft, but I should have realized this was going to happen. I'm guessing my only choice is to heat it up and reglue, or rebuild. Any suggestions from now until tomorrow are welcome. If I can't figure something out I'll attempt to reglue.

[fryovanni]

So here's the body so far. Can't see the Indian Rosewood veneers too well in the picture.

I have ran into two problems though. When I was doing the first gluing right wing to the laminates (picture here) It pulled the area left of the horn inward and glued that way. This gave it a slight curve. I figure bending it outward while gluing the Wenge on would correct it. It helped, but not enough. This wood is so soft, but I should have realized this was going to happen. I'm guessing my only choice is to heat it up and reglue, or rebuild. Any suggestions from now until tomorrow are welcome. If I can't figure something out I'll attempt to reglue.

It is hard for me to see exactly what the issue is from the pictures. You may do better if you glue the inner laminates first then attach the wings. After the inner lams are glued true the edges again and be sure they are square so the wings attach flat and true. A joint should never require so much clamping that it actually bends the wood. Joints can fail if you compress the wood. Actually a good joint only needs enough clamping force to sqeeze out excess glue, more pressure than that only weakens it. You probably know that already, but for what its worth. Good luck with it. I think it is going to be a nice looking body when you get it all put together. Should look extra classy .

Peace,Rich

[Jon]

So here's the body so far. Can't see the Indian Rosewood veneers too well in the picture.

I have ran into two problems though. When I was doing the first gluing right wing to the laminates (picture here) It pulled the area left of the horn inward and glued that way. This gave it a slight curve. I figure bending it outward while gluing the Wenge on would correct it. It helped, but not enough. This wood is so soft, but I should have realized this was going to happen. I'm guessing my only choice is to heat it up and reglue, or rebuild. Any suggestions from now until tomorrow are welcome. If I can't figure something out I'll attempt to reglue.

It is hard for me to see exactly what the issue is from the pictures. You may do better if you glue the inner laminates first then attach the wings. After the inner lams are glued true the edges again and be sure they are square so the wings attach flat and true. A joint should never require so much clamping that it actually bends the wood. Joints can fail if you compress the wood. Actually a good joint only needs enough clamping force to sqeeze out excess glue, more pressure than that only weakens it. You probably know that already, but for what its worth. Good luck with it. I think it is going to be a nice looking body when you get it all put together. Should look extra classy .

Peace,Rich

Thanks for the suggestion! The main reason I didn't glue the laminates to each other before going to the wings first was because of the rosewood veneer. Also, this is my first time gluing more than one laminate in the body. Thanks again, I'll be trying this out tonight / tomorrow!

Also. Has anyone ever had a problem like this? I'm thinking the veneers wont be usable anymore and I'll have to get some more. Time will tell soon!

[fryovanni]

Ok, I was missing a piece of the puzzle. Good chance the veneer will get wasted (it is touchy to begin with). I try to attach veneer (very thin lams) to one side of a the thicker lams before trying to line all the lams up. It keeps the pieces from floating in too much glue (gives you more control). I have done 9 piece laminate neck blanks with 4 pinstripe veneers in there. It would be next to impossible to control all those thin pieces as the clamping started if I didn't anchor the veneers first.

So now I wanna see it when you get the lams surfaced. I love those fine line details.

Peace,Rich

[screwdelulu]

A joint should never require so much clamping that it actually bends the wood. Joints can fail if you compress the wood. Actually a good joint only needs enough clamping force to sqeeze out excess glue, more pressure than that only weakens it.

That is strange. I've speaked with a well known luthier and he said he clamp the glued pieces only a bit before they "crank" the wood. sounds reasonable, since you want as little glue as possible in the joint, so there are no visible glue line...

[Jon]

Just pointing this out again, take a look at the top red clamp. See where the horn is and that big gap inbetween the horn and the "extra wood" is? That's the reason why the would started to bend. The wood didn't have much strength and it was a poor idea to use the clamp there, especially a Bessey. Lesson learned, I need a more productive way of clamping shaped bodies. I should have glued the laminates to the body when the body was squared off and not shaped. Or as stated earlier, glue the laminates together and go from there (best idea IMO).

I'll be taking another go at it today. One more question though. Is there a chemical that can remove this dried glue from the veneer or any other piece of wood? I'm afraid that after I heat this up and it dries back that I'll have a hard time sanding it back to the "table saw" smooth sides it once had.

[Setch]

Vinegar softens white glue, but I'd opt for mechanical removal - ie: scrape it off. Or, run a sharp plane over it. I joint all my mutlipiece bodies with a no.5 (jack) plane, and with a little practice it's not difficult.

[fryovanni]

A joint should never require so much clamping that it actually bends the wood. Joints can fail if you compress the wood. Actually a good joint only needs enough clamping force to sqeeze out excess glue, more pressure than that only weakens it.

That is strange. I've speaked with a well known luthier and he said he clamp the glued pieces only a bit before they "crank" the wood. sounds reasonable, since you want as little glue as possible in the joint, so there are no visible glue line...

Very little glue yes. Well prepped surfaces, and squeeze out the glue. If by "crank" he was refering to compressing or distorting the wood. I would say heck no. When you compress the wood it will want to expand and will pull at the dried joint. Really there would be no reason to apply that kind of pressure. If your surfaces are not clean true and tight clamping to crush it together is going to create a very weak joint.

Wood is just a dense fiberous material. It will expand and contract over time. If you build in stress to a joint it will make it even harder for the joint to stay in tact while it deals with its natural expansion and contraction around it. It is even worse if you are joining thinner wood for acoustic tops/ arch tops.

Peace,Rich

[Jon]

Alright, so I tried to steaming the glue joints and it took me about 30 minutes till it started loosening. Once the glue is heated you can usually lodge an object into the glue joint to help seperate the two. After spending even more time doing this, I realized it was pointless. The maple is going to end up warped and I'm going to tear the veneer to pieces. So I just cut it and it's good as new! I cut down the center of the Maple laminate so I could salvage the Wenge laminate, which I planed down to it's correct size. I then glued two 1/2" wide flame maple laminates to the Wenge~ something I should have done in the first place since it wasn't going to use in anything else. So now I have the center laminates glued and surfaced and they look great! I'll be gluing the rosewood veneers onto the center laminates tonight then finishing the rest of the body gluing tomorrow. Then hopefully getting the top on late tomorrow / early Monday.

I have a few more questions, but they wont do any good without pictures. And my batteries died~ Which leads to a new question! I have been thru 3-4 different types of batteries made for digital cameras, none have lasted more than 30 minutes. Any suggestions on which to use?

[Jon]

So after lots of careful planning and gluing, it's nearly complete.. again. Apparently the time I spent attempting to remove the laminates from the left wing, was time spent in getting it warped. I could probably use it, but I don't have any flat boards for keeping it flat while gluing. So I cut another piece of Ash for the left wing. The grain was far too different from the right wing, so I cut off another piece to go with the left wing. I didn't cut either side with a bandsaw so I could clamp it more easily with the clamps I am using.

Here are a couple shots of the clamping. The little pieces of brown you see are the rosewood veneer bent over. I got tired of it sliding around when gluing, so I made sure to make the pieces slightly larger to reduce this problem.

Front

From behind, the grain of the Ash looks almost bookmatched, awesome. There was a little surprise in the curly maple after I planed it down. Some would see it as an imperfection. But it looks cool to me.

I should be gluing the Wenge top on tomorrow morning, then shaping it the next morning. Looking sweet!

[Jon]

Tried recharging the batteries but only got 2 pictures out of them before they died. After I cut the body with the bandsaw I shaped it with a belt sander, looks effing fantastic! I'll be gluing the top on tonight. Any suggestions / tips to gluing tops onto the body? I haven't read anything on this.

Back

I started working on the neck laminates. So far I have 5 laminates cut. The center laminate is Wenge, which measures exactly to the body. The two laminates to the side of the Wenge will be Hard Maple, 1/2" wide just like the body. I have 2 more 1/2" Maple laminates, and some Purpleheart that will be cut and used in the neck as well. I should be using rosewood veneers again, no definate answer till I start gluing.

[Jon]

Progress is going along very smoothly. The last band practice I had went great, so I'm feeling a lot more confident about recording this Saturday. So I'm putting more time into my true love, guitar making!

I'm without batteries for the time being, going out to purchase some more tomorrow. So I'll get pictures of my progress then. Yesterday I glued the left top onto the bass. I spent about 30-40 minutes shaping it this morning, looking great! There are two slightly visible glue joints, they should be fine when I go over the bass with a roundover bit. If not, I have tons of Wenge dust to make Wenge colored epoxy for filling them. I'll be gluing the right top on tonight.

Today my dad and I did some work on cutting more neck laminates. I have finalized what they're going to be.

L - R

Maple, Purpleheart, Rosewood veneer, Maple, Wenge (center), Maple, Rosewood veneer, Purpleheart, Maple.

It's a massive size right now, 4 1/4" wide. Purpleheart is so incredibly dense! It was smoking as we were finishing any of the cuts on it.

So here are a few more specs on the 8-string. 35" Scale. The body is 1 1/2" thick. 3" wide at the nut (subject to change). 4 1/4" wide at the 24th fret (subject to change). 24 frets (subject to change). Looking sweet, can't wait to show off pictures!

[Primal]

I would have been tempted to go for a 36" scale for the F#... =P

Granted, you probably won't be using the F# all that much, so you shouldn't suffer too much.

[Jon]

I would have been tempted to go for a 36" scale for the F#... =P

Granted, you probably won't be using the F# all that much, so you shouldn't suffer too much.

It's not a string I'd be shredding or playing incredibly fast on. Just an extra low string to hit two octaves lower when playing with a guitarist and another string to tap on. Same goes for the B string, I don't use it incredibly often (mainly because the band I play with doesn't tune down to B ). So I often use it to play two octaves lower or tap on it.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Jon

[Primal]

A low B is a godsend when playing in painful keys such as F, G, etc. Also great for playing Footsteps in C.

[Pr3Va1L]

I think a low B is a good way to get a cool effect with... If you have a C to play, instead of playing it with the A string, you can go with the B string and it sound just cooler...

A good example of this, I think, is Another Brick In The Wall... Play the D on the B string and you'll see what I mean...

[Jon]

Got the batteries they recommended that will last the longest. Lasted 30 seconds, awesome.

Got quite a bit of progress done. After shaping the body a bit more, I glued the left top onto the body. I then shaped the top to where it fits the body nicely. A couple days later I glued the right top on. I'm guessing I missed one of the clamps when tightening them, because the right wing slid about 3-4 mm to the right. I've got a cool idea on how to fix that, more on that later. After I shaped the right top with the belt sander, I hand sanded the sides to where they needed to be with 80 / 100 grit. After it was nice and smooth, I rounded the sides over and worked on how to get the area left of the horn looking cool. I still have no cool ideas on it, I guess it works for now.

I shaped the "belly guard" yesterday, it looks great. I play my basses pretty high, so it's more like a chest guard.

Back

Neck

I screwed up on the neck twice. The first time I glued it, my dad wanted to try something that would be a little more productive. But the bottom wasn't being squeezed at all, so there was a pretty big glue joint. After 10 minutes of it being pressed together, I couldn't remove the laminates. Luckily I cut enough laminates for two necks. Which I then screwed up again. It glued nicely, but I planed it wrong it where the laminates had a very slight slant. So I sacrificed about 10% of the Wenge laminate to get the only Maple I had left and planed them down to correct size. Now that all the laminates are the correct thickness, everything should glue nicely. I'm hoping the neck will be done gluing after 3 days of work.

It's coming along nicely!

[Jon]

Hey look, my dog is napping in the background.

[Ben]

Looking good!