A Theoretical Question.

[Nitefly SA]

I love the sound of Les Pauls but my heart lies with RG's. I wanted to make essentially a Les Paul in disguise, but I can't do any fret work or get a snug fit with the neck tenon. So I thought If I could get a mahogany neck through from Carvin, that would be great, So can I get a mahogany neck through from carvin? Or just maple?

That isn't the theoretical question.

I thought I heard somewhere that the wings on a neck through only add 10% of the sound of the guitar while the neck and "heart" wood make up the other 90% (neck and heart being the same piece of wood and all) I also think I heard that The maple cap on a Les Paul adds about 10% as well. So IN THEORY, a Mahogany neck through with hard maple wings would sound at least remotely similar to a Les paul. Am I correct in this theory?

[TimS]

i don't know what carvin sells.

It makes sense that the area actually carrying the string tension would provide the bulk of the tone. It all depends on how sensitive your ear is; to a lot of people, one guitar sounds just like the next, and there are people who can listen to a recording and tell you what kind of guitar the person used.

But to answer the question, I would tend to agree with you; a mahogany core with maple wings might sound similar to a les paul.

[Nitefly SA]

Carvin only sells maple neck through blanks on the internet but I heard you can get all sorts of options added if you call them and order.

[fryovanni]

No idea about what Carvin offers.

As far as the neck thru question. I dunno if 90-10 is any sort of accurate ratio to go by. However without getting too sketchy with or hypothetical. If you are taking about volume of wood that the instrument is made of. The neck-thru section will make up the bulk of the guitar, and it would make sense that it would have the most effect on the overall contribution. Wings much like a top are a smaller part of the overall guitar. So I would say your thoughts are reasonable. It goes without saying that body shape will play a role also as the guitar will vibrate as a unit (so overall mass and shape should play a role in that contribution also). Pickup, electronics and amp combination are going to be key to the sound.

Peace,Rich

[Nitefly SA]

Anybody else's input?

[radrobgray]

well if you swap the neckthru for a set neck youd probably be closer. why are you having problems gettin a good fit between teh tennon/pocket?

[spazzyone]

not cheap but awsome quality

http://jamersonguitars.secure-shops20.com/...nly_p_3-36.html

[Desopolis]

I take fryovanni's advice as the truth...

[Primal]

Where is scale length in your equation?

[Nitefly SA]

yeah, it'd be 25.5 which I know takes away some warmth and sustain.

[fryovanni]

well if you swap the neckthru for a set neck youd probably be closer. why are you having problems gettin a good fit between teh tennon/pocket?

Out of curiosity why the emphasis on set neck?

Peace,Rich

[MzI]

I sort of made what you are shooting for. The guitar is a semi strat shape, bolt on maple neck with rosewood board, 25 1/2 scale. The body is mahogany with a 1/2" eastern flamed maple top, pair of duncan 'buckers and strings thru for my personal preference.

In all reality id consider the body wood combo and your pickup selection as the most important. You can make the guitar any shape as long as you have that wood selection.

MzI

[verhoevenc]

Here would be my recommendation. Find that mahogany neck thru blank....and right where the fretboard ends all the way to the end of it all, using a drill press with a safe-t-planer, eat away at it so that after the fretboard there's a cliff that goes down some, say, 1/4", maybe more. THEN glue on some mahogany sides of the same thickness of this new neck's thickness. Then get a 1/4" maple top, and glue that on top over EVERYTHING (and now if your neck route isn't perfect it's not as big a deal... cause it's just a 1/4" top... not the whole stability issue. Then glue another 1/4" maple to the back. That way you'll get your mahogany neck... and a mahogany body just like a les paul, but you'll also get a fair bit of maple... and isnce both the top and back are capped... you'll never even know it WAS a neck through

Chris

PS: If you didn't get it.... look at toddler's guitars, he's got neck through's with caps on top.

[Mickguard]

Well, Les Pauls are set-necks, they're not neck-through guitars. They're also 24.75" scale, or thereabouts, not 25.5". And I'd say the scale will have as much influence if not more than any other component. But I have no proof of that either.

First thing I'd do though, is buy a set of Gibson humbuckers and install them into one of your existing guitars (if you have one with the proper scale, that is). I bet you'll get damn close to the sound you want.

And then, if that doesn't quite do it, I'd build the body shape you want using the LP's mahogany/maple combo, and add a setneck with the proper scale length.

There's that study where they're trying to show the effect of body shape on vibration, but the study is way too flawed to allow any conclusions, although its makes for a couple of cool animated gifs.

The influence of scale seems to make more sense to me as having a direct impact on tone. But again, where's the proof? Maybe the change in tone is due to the use of maple for the neck, instead of mahogany?

[marksound]

I don't know about anyone else, but I hear more LP-type tones in Satriani's playing than any of the other Ibanez endorsees I've heard (whammy squeals excluded). Could be body wood, could be pickups, could be fingers, I don't know. This is just what I hear, and I'm no expert by a long shot.

I'd check out the JS specs and see if something clicks.

[biliousfrog]

In a recent interview with Les Paul he said that the original "log" was just that, a long wooden stick with one end made into a neck. Gibson mentioned that it looked ugly so Les stuck some wings on it & he said that the sound was unchanged...but it looked prettier.

I would agree that the centre section is the most important part so making it different to what you want to emulate is pointless. Ignore the "wings" on a Les Paul & an RG & look at how similar the centre sections are......they aren't at all! Different bridge, scale length, neck join, headstock shape, neck shape.....they all impart a different feel & sound.

You need to work out what part of the LP sound you're after. Maybe it's just the pickups or maybe it's because the scale length is shorter & people tend to use heavier strings or maybe the neck shape makes people play in a different style which affects the sound or perhaps you like the sound of mahogany? There's also many different LP's out there...Is Zakk Wylde's sound from the maple neck or are the EMG's colouring the sound so much that it wouldn't matter what it was made from?

& finally, can you tell the difference between guitar components with your rig? If everything goes through a Metal Zone or Big Muff then often it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you're playing a LP or a strat, it will sound the same to Joe Public.

just my 2c

[Nitefly SA]

I don't want an exact LP sound I just want a smoother, richer sound, which is where the mahogany comes in but I also don't want it to be too muddy so the maple wings would hopefully change that a bit. I know LP's are set neck but like I said I'll probably F up everything if I try to make the neck and neck pocket.

[fryovanni]

I don't want an exact LP sound I just want a smoother, richer sound, which is where the mahogany comes in but I also don't want it to be too muddy so the maple wings would hopefully change that a bit. I know LP's are set neck but like I said I'll probably F up everything if I try to make the neck and neck pocket.

I still think it will work out just fine. One of my early projects was a neck thru LP (Mahogany) with Mahogany wings and a Maple Top. It worked out just fine.

During my searching for acoustic information. I ran across a bit of testing that was done to illustrate how guitars vibrate at different frequencies. I can't remember where I ran across the info, but I will look for it. What their model showed was how the body twisted as it vibrated(we don't really think a body moves as we play it but it actually does it is just not moving a great distance). Anyway... At lower to low mid frequencies the models illustrated that the body itself infact moves and twists. This leads me to suspect that on a small scale body shape could effect sound(keeping it real it is still an electric, so I mean small difference). It was probably more significant to see how significant the neck becomes in the area between around the 7th fret and headstock. I will try to find it again, but if anyone else remembers the page.

Peace,Rich

[verhoevenc]

Want an RG feel on a les paul's sound? Build an LP clone, but give it a 16" radius instead, and a super thin neck. Even a floyd rose if you wanna take it that level (the Gibson custom shop did it.... so it's possible).

Chris

[radrobgray]

well if you swap the neckthru for a set neck youd probably be closer. why are you having problems gettin a good fit between teh tennon/pocket?

Out of curiosity why the emphasis on set neck?

Peace,Rich

i just figured he wanted a gutiar that is pretty much a les paul but didnt look like one, and i thought that if hes going for that, a set neck would probably get him closer to it than a neck thru. it just seems if he wants les paul sound go with les paul type construciton/hardware. as a note all iv built is neck thrus and bolts ons so i guess i have no experece with that.

[Mitja]

I think the key factors on how to get a "les Paul -sound" in a non-les paul construction are:

1. Scale lenght

24.75 scale lenght sounds warmer than 25.5. the longer scale means more sustain and more trebly sound.

Solid body Les Pauls also have a good sustain, But the attack is different if you make the neck 25.5 inch.

2. Wood

Mahogany neck and body with or without maple cap.

3. Construction

There is a difference in the sound if you compare neck through to the set neck.

Set neck is the way to go. Also the neck angle might have some effect on the sound.

3. Hardware

PAF! No other options.

Look for gibson humbuckers with alnico magnets.

4. Mass

Les paul is a heavy, thick piece of wood.

An RG-body with traditional dimensions is alot smaller. Perhaps you can stick to the original shape.

Make the body thicker, and if you can add an angled neck, then you can add a thicker top or even a slightly carved one. Thus, more wood.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Mitja

[thegarehanman]

PAF's? hahaha. Gibson's got you right where they want you, mitja. You can get the traditional lp sound from a wide, wide variety of pickups. My personal favorite hb combo being the SD jazz/jb set.

Your guitar also doesn't have to be heavy and large to sound like an lp. My homebrewed lp clone is 1.5" thick at the edge and the whole thing weighs just over 5lbs. No maple cap and the thing sounds just like any other lp would.

Seriously, some of the voodoo that gets thrown in the air here really gets under my skin. What's the point in such conjecture?

EDIT: Oh and if you want that real lp "tone," you might as well give it the signature gibson neck pocket/tenon combo

Edited November 3, 2006 by thegarehanman

[Mitja]

I see what you mean. This "woodoo" thing and unnecessary mysticism around guitars is annoying,

however, that´s pretty much what i´ve discovered myself when playing les pauls.

I can be wrong. But: I´ve owned a les paus custom, played various standards and i own a great Ibanez custom agent 2405 Les Paul from 76´, wich is otherwise identical to the gibsons but it´s slightly chambered it has maple neck and SD JAZZ/jb set.

For my ears it(ibanez) sounds different. Especially with clean sounds.

JBs sound good but i prefer gibson´s alnico PAF´s or SD alnico pro´s. They have slightly less output and not so biting and dense midrange when i crank some gains up.

I also like to analyze the sound characteristics when playing unplugged. then you´re able to feel and hear some tonal differences from the wood that will be harder to hear when the pick ups deliver the sound.

Sorry for getting off topic.

PAF's? hahaha. Gibson's got you right where they want you, mitja. You can get the traditional lp sound from a wide, wide variety of pickups. My personal favorite hb combo being the SD jazz/jb set.

Your guitar also doesn't have to be heavy and large to sound like an lp. My homebrewed lp clone is 1.5" thick at the edge and the whole thing weighs just over 5lbs. No maple cap and the thing sounds just like any other lp would.

Seriously, some of the voodoo that gets thrown in the air here really gets under my skin. What's the point in such conjecture?

EDIT: Oh and if you want that real lp "tone," you might as well give it the signature gibson neck pocket/tenon combo

[thegarehanman]

Your argument is well thought out and has validity, but as a gibson owner, how do those [gibson] set neck sectional views make you feel about that whole set neck theory? Maybe the pockets add some acoustics?

I hear you about hearing tonal differences unplugged, but ultimately it's the amplified sound that we're really concerned with. You also have to realise that some of our ears are less descerning than others. I tend to be less picky about my guitar's "tone" because my style(and those I enjoy listening to) is where a great deal of the unique tone comes from, if you can call it that.

[Mitja]

Yeah, there´s the gluefilled gap that resonates!

No, but sometimes i´ve found my neck through jackson to have almost too much sustain when i´ve wanted more attack and less sustain on a very demped riff. Set neck have felt better. But i guess it had more to do with the overall specs and the longer scale(in Jackson). Those are really minor differencies but important to me as a picky player and guitar enthusiast.

I would also point out thet i´m not a fan of Gibson guitar company at all!

I think it´s the most overrated guitar company in the world. Especially nowdays. Most of the new and really expensive Pauls, flying V´s and Sg´s that i´ve tried are really far from the quality they had before 1984.

I guess the good old and dense wood is getting harder to find?

At least ebony on the market today seems weaker than before. And honduran mahogany is pretty much vanished from the market.

Your argument is well thought out and has validity, but as a gibson owner, how do those [gibson] set neck sectional views make you feel about that whole set neck theory? Maybe the pockets add some acoustics?

I hear you about hearing tonal differences unplugged, but ultimately it's the amplified sound that we're really concerned with. You also have to realise that some of our ears are less descerning than others. I tend to be less picky about my guitar's "tone" because my style(and those I enjoy listening to) is where a great deal of the unique tone comes from, if you can call it that.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Mitja