Too Much Neck Wood Fuss

[verhoevenc]

I just wanted to have everyone weigh in on this idea:

Do we make too much fuss about neck wood?

I say this mainly after having thought "hey, lets look at my PRS CE22's neck" and BAM looked at the end of the headstock.... perfectly 45 degree riftsawn maple...

Chris

[rhoads56]

I just wanted to have everyone weigh in on this idea:

Do we make too much fuss about neck wood?

I say this mainly after having thought "hey, lets look at my PRS CE22's neck" and BAM looked at the end of the headstock.... perfectly 45 degree riftsawn maple...

Chris

how many millions of fender/clone guitars are out ther? How many have you EVER seen with quartered maple necks? I can think of a handful, and i service at least 30 guitars a week.

Maple is a LOT stronger than mahogany, which is what you'll find all the accoustic guys talking about, recommending quartered necks (rightly so).

[Southpa]

It doesn't make good business sense to build all your guitars with quartersawn necks, unless you are only doing the "custom" thing. But it doesn't happen in mass production. There is too much waste from a good piece of wood and too much hassle just to get one neck. Q-sawn is great but flat sawn works just as well so long as the grain is evenly aligned. Lots of people are going for the laminated thing. You could probably use almost any cut within reason. One piece ripped down the middle twice, flip the center section and glue/clamp back together. The reversed grain gives some symmetry and balance so warpage and/or twisting can't extend right across the neck.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Southpa

[fryovanni]

I just wanted to have everyone weigh in on this idea:

Do we make too much fuss about neck wood?

I say this mainly after having thought "hey, lets look at my PRS CE22's neck" and BAM looked at the end of the headstock.... perfectly 45 degree riftsawn maple...

Chris

I am going to say we absolutely do not make too much fuss about neck wood. If anything the wood used on a guitar is one of the most important aspects of building a guitar(or maybe I should say wood selection). I think there is a lot of people that do not study up and understand enough about wood, and I don't mean BS any the Voodoo hype sales myths. I mean straight forward understanding of wood as a building material.

One of the biggest downfalls to mass produced guitars is the lack of special attension to selection of materials used(and properly prepairing them for use). Every thing we can do to make a better instrument is important. I also think we look at what manufacturers do and assume that makes things correct/acceptable/superior, but do not do our homework to understand the why or hows. This is where so many myths come from. Now you look at a neck that is rift sawn(at least in the headstock area) by PRS. What does that change about the properties of wood? Why do you think they used rift sawn material? Based on what you know, and your experience is riftsawn wood the best choice? Under what circumstances would it make very little difference, and be a reasonably reliable cut?

Peace,Rich

P.S. Same holds true for pickups. You can just grab a random set of pickups out of a mixed bucket, and call it a day. Or you can buy pickups based on marketing hype or just because brand X uses them. On the other hand a luthier would find out how they work and select based on knowledge to put together the best choice for their instrument.

Remeber; anyone can make a guitar. Not very many people can make it great.

[verhoevenc]

This isn't to mean I'm going to stop using quartered/flatsawn woods, I was just curious as to why a guitar costing several grand from a well known company would use riftsawn woods for a neck (granted, 99% of their buyers would never know the difference).

Chris

[fryovanni]

Perry,

how many millions of fender/clone guitars are out ther? How many have you EVER seen with quartered maple necks? I can think of a handful, and i service at least 30 guitars a week.

Maple is a LOT stronger than mahogany, which is what you'll find all the accoustic guys talking about, recommending quartered necks (rightly so).

So tell me what you look for when you are selecting a piece of wood for a neck you are making(grain, dryness, etc....)? I am betting you do not just grab a handful of boards from a local lumber yard and go to town.

Peace,Rich

BTW; I still hold to the belief there is little difference in strength between flat and quartersawn(as I have posted in many responces).

[Jon]

I can't speak much for one piece necks. But my multi-lam necks aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Any of them take a great, great deal of pressure to bend. I think 5-9 laminates would do that, though.

[verhoevenc]

even in mahogany Rich?

Chris

[Southpa]

I generally make 1 - piece necks, not a big fan of the "striped" look unless its holding a truss rod in.

I'm looking more for balance and symmetry in the overall grain. The ultimate endgrain must run from surface to back (q-sawn) or across the width of the neck (flat sawn). The evenness of the growth ring spacing is also another desirable trait. Those factors determine the overall stability of the neck when its put under all those stresses imposed on it during its life. (string tension, truss rod tension, playing stresses, expansion/contraction from temp and humidity changes). I like a more dynamic neck so stiffness isn't the first thing I look for when choosing or cutting a piece of mahogany or whatever neck wood species.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Southpa

[fryovanni]

even in mahogany Rich?

Chris

Slight strength difference, but not much. Stability and straight grain are#1 factors in acoustics. Runnout becomes the next big issue. Shrinkage in the radial,tangential, and longtitudinal are well documented and easy to observe. True value of laminations vs deterimental effects of laminations(internal stresses on glue joints (if orientation is not equal) over time) are harder to varify. Again people have opinions based on how they imagine it should work(myself included as I like using lams). Most of the documented increases in performance are based on increases in strength to weaker woods(by laminating stronger woods), or balancing strength in different directions. The only thing documentaion shows is that if glue joints can achive full strength and grain orientaion can be maintained from lam to lam. You can achieve similar strength to solid straight grained clear wood. One way or the other laminates look hot.

In terms of strength. If you look up the test data on clear straight grain wood you will find very little difference in either orientation. You will find people develop a lot of opinions because of how they imagine things should work, but I have never seen anything to substantiate an honest significant difference.

Peace,Rich

[Drak]

I think there is a lot of people that do not study up and understand enough about wood, and I don't mean BS any the Voodoo hype sales myths. I mean straight forward understanding of wood as a building material.

One of the biggest downfalls to mass produced guitars is the lack of special attension to selection of materials used(and properly prepairing them for use). Every thing we can do to make a better instrument is important. I also think we look at what manufacturers do and assume that makes things correct/acceptable/superior, but do not do our homework to understand the why or hows. This is where so many myths come from.

Remember; anyone can make a guitar. Not very many people can make it great.

These are very powerful words, and few people ever really hang in there long enough to understand the complexity of those words.

The guys who say they'll make their first guitar out of Zebrawood and Paduak and Purpleheart and Macassar Ebony, while they may have READ about these woods somewhere, they have never really used each one several times to gain the EXPERIENCE needed to sort it all out, and that takes time, devotion to your craft, open-mindedness, and intelligence, and you don't get that by living in a sound-byte, MTV-oriented, I'll get it perfect the first time reality.

Cooks don't make great stews or soups by watching a cooking show on TV a few times and deciding on their ingredients, no, they need to make those soups over and over and over again until they finally arrive at a really head-turning stew because they now know the complexities of each ingredient and how that ingredient fits into The Big Picture. No good cook would serve a stew to a paying customer without first getting it RIGHT and knowing it was right, and that only comes with experience.

I lost the 'being overtly ****' aspect of building long ago, where you get really hung up on the minutae of every aspect...the most important part is to remember the final product is a combination of many different things, and that it is there for enjoyment, not getting hung up about the tiniest of factoids about rift vs. flat...but I think everyone has to go thru that 'phase' in building where they need to discuss the pros and cons of chambering like they're Albert freaking Einstein or something all the sudden. ...

So yes, all these things are important as Rich stated, but only when they are taken in context of the whole project, not singled out and each factor put under a microscope where the big picture (which is the most important picture) gets completely lost in favor of the minutae/microscope outlook on things.

There is a sales concept called 'chunking up' and 'chunking down' (look it up, you'll find it ) where if a client is concentrating too hard on the itty bitty facts, you need to 'chunk him up', and start using terms like 'lets look at the big picture, Bill', otherwise you'll never get him to commit to the job, he's totally lost in the minutae and has swamped himself (and you) with useless facts that will get in his own way of getting the job he wants done.

On the other hand, someone who doesn't want to know ANY facts needs to be 'chunked down' where you have to point out important points and facts that he needs to be aware of else he starts taking too many things for granted and assumes too much. A dangerous place to be.

You need some facts, yes, but you need those facts simply because they are the building block ingredients of The Big Picture, the small facts by themselves are basically worthless except to someone with a calculating, scientific type of personality, and that's OK too, that's what gets those kind of people off, that's what they enjoy doing.

Another point I think is important is that you need to simply build, build, build, then build some more, building is far more beneficial than wondering what wood sounds better than another and asking someone else about it, just go in there and try it out, then try something else out, and see what you think about the whole thing, that's called EXPERIENCE, and is hard earned, but very prized.

[rhoads56]

what do i look for?

I laminate the through necks, generally, so i can easily use quartered for that. Rift sawn timber is used in laminated neck, i actually like doing that.

All mahogany, limba, blackwood, etc necks are quartered, no matter what. Maple does not matter, but i prefer to use quartered for my customs, but not for the standards (only if i have lots of excess stock).

Im more concerned with the FULL PLANK LENGTH shape (cupping, bow, twist), grain run out, mineral streaks, colour, grain per inch, etc etc etc. If the original rough sawn plank is looking crap, i dont ever consider processing it further. If it passes the first few checks, i still have no problem scrapping something after its machined, if it doesnt meet spec.

But, everyone should cut and paste Draks last paragraph, into a word document, blow up the text to a huge size, print it out, laminate it, and hang it in your shower. That 'belief' is more important than anything. Having your technique down pat is way more important that rift/quartered, bla bla.

[Mickguard]

Another point I think is important is that you need to simply build, build, build, then build some more, building is far more beneficial than wondering what wood sounds better than another and asking someone else about it, just go in there and try it out, then try something else out, and see what you think about the whole thing, that's called EXPERIENCE, and is hard earned, but very prized.

This from the guy who's building essentially the same telecaster for 20 years now

[Supernova9]

Another point I think is important is that you need to simply build, build, build, then build some more, building is far more beneficial than wondering what wood sounds better than another and asking someone else about it, just go in there and try it out, then try something else out, and see what you think about the whole thing, that's called EXPERIENCE, and is hard earned, but very prized.

This from the guy who's building essentially the same telecaster for 20 years now

But I'll wager he knows really well how to make a great sounding telecaster.

[erikbojerik]

But I'll wager he knows really well how to make a great sounding telecaster.

...and could give an opinion informed by experience rather than theory.

[Drak]

That is quite funny in one reguard, and I laughed at it too, but there is a more serious side to it, and since prompted, I will discuss a little, as I think it fits the thread topic to some degree.

A lot of people here have not been aware of what I've done in the 12 years I've been building.

I went thru all the typical stages that most newbs do, I have designed and built over 6-7 different custom designs of my own over the years (not just computer generated images, but actually designed and built and finished working instruments), my two GOTM wins were a 7-layer double-bound Cocobolo-faced front-back-and sides bookmatched, Active Electronics, Coco-Bolo bound and veneered headstock Shark V and a totally custom design of mine, the Telecaster thing came years and years later into my building.

I've done more veneering than I ever care to remember, I have done V's where every single side was veneered, like a butcher block kinda thing, and many, many more besides that, and I learned all the pitfalls of veneering.

These things came because I build, build, build, and build some more, and I now have the EXPERIENCE under my belt of all these things.

I think the first 'destination' for most builders is the 'I want to make a custom design of my very own', which is pretty normal really, but what a lot of them don't see is that that's just a phase, just the first roadside stop in the progression, and there is much more to come if they stick with it, they'll get THRU that part and progress to something else one day.

...Carving a top is another destination point in the journey of building, so I did it, but I don't like them basically, because they don't fit my playing style, and I am VERY AWARE of my own playing style, what works for me and what doesn't, and this is an IMPORTANT POINT that I think gets lost, they're too concentrated on the minutae of the guitar, and forget to remember how the guitar relates to the player, this is a KEY COMPONENT in building guitars, because someone (hopefully) will be playing them one day, and most people don't want to play a 15 lb. guitar that has controls in all the wrong places, no matter how 'cool' it may or may not look.

I see guys build guitars out of fancy woods, but their controls are all messed up, or the body shape, although maybe original, is awkward to play. I KNOW they can't be comfortable to play, but they're very hung up on how nice it looks with the fancy woods and all. That's OK, we all have to get started and work our way thru these things, it's part of progressing.

Now about the Telecasters ( ). The Telecaster thing is something that I arrived at in the past 3 years or so.

What I have learned over the years is that if you're ALWAYS trying to come up with something new, you're never giving yourself an opportunity to EXCEL at any one thing in particular. To EXCEL at something means you're doing the same thing over and over and REFINING IT every step of the way, that's something a new builder probably cannot comprehend for several years into his building career, he's usually too busy trying to come up with his own custom design for the first few years and that's all he can see, which is OK, we all go thru that. And you cannot refine or excel if you're still just learning the basics, you have to learn that stuff, then use it to propel you further along. And there's no getting around it, there's no short cut thru it unless you attend a luthier school, but even they can't teach you self-determination or self-discipline.

If you want to always be a jack of all trades, master of none, that's fine by me, but I did the jack of all trades long enough, I arrived at a place where I wanted to concentrate and excel at the guitar that suits me best, so that's what I do, but if you think there's nothing behind that decision except that Telecasters are typically an easy build, then you don't have your eyes open at all.

But I have discovered that by refining my Telecasters, they (to me) are the most deadly guitars I have ever played, they are getting REFINED to a very, very sharp point, and anyone who would say that 'Oh, he just builds Telecasters and they're sinfully easy to produce', doesn't have the eyes to see what goes into my Telecasters, mine are absolutely custom-designed for me, they are the ultimate guitar that I want to play, so that's what I make. Any other choice would be silly.

So, don't get lost in the fact that the most clever guitar, the guitar that is hard to build, is the best guitar, because you are not taking the player into mind, you are just looking at the guitar itself, in a vacuum, so to speak, and that is a false conclusion to come to. I live in reality, where the guitars I make get played and criticized and refined.

[Mickguard]

I love telecasters.

[ToneMonkey]

Drak - Do you play all your tele's (or at least the ones that made it past the WOD test), or do you favour one over the others?

Refining only goes so far, we're human (well most of us on here ) and operate in an odd way. I love playing my 3/4 size cheap acoustic with 12 year old - semi unwound strings. It's not refined, it's not even half decent, but it makes me happy . I've played some really nice, well built and thougt out acoustics, but there's nothing out there like my favorite POS. Maybe i'll write that on the headstock in a PRS style

[Drak]

Refining only goes so far, we're human (well most of us on here) and operate in an odd way. I love playing my 3/4 size cheap acoustic with 12 year old - semi unwound strings. It's not refined, it's not even half decent, but it makes me happy. I've played some really nice, well built and thougt out acoustics, but there's nothing out there like my favorite POS. Maybe i'll write that on the headstock in a PRS style

Well, whatever makes you happy works with me, bangin' old Beatles tunes out on your favorite old beach acoustic is great fun...but continually refining my Telecasters makes me very happy too, so go figure that one out.

BTW, my other favorite body style is the Shark V, and when I look at the GOTM winner I cringe in fear, because I have come a long way since then, I have refined my V 3-4 times since then, I look at the template for that original one and shudder with horror compared to the ones I just came up with in the past few months, which I just started another new one last night. Much sleeker and streamlined, instead of sort of blocky and chunky, which I think a Rhoads V should be.

So I'm all for refining, it works for me, makes me happy. No reason not to try and better yourself by concentrating on one design until it is designed to the Nth degree and there's nowhere else left to go with it.

But also keeping The Big Picture in mind at the same time.

[fryovanni]

Perry- Can you add a bit of info on how you dry/season wood, and how much importance you place on this. (P.S. I am not really trying to grill you I am just trying to get a good snapshot of your methods).

Drak- You make perfect sense(Dang it! I still get spooked when I agree with you ). I think it is important not to give the impression to a person that has not studied up on "the basics" the idea that they are not important. Some people like to take what they don't understand and chalk it up to "small details" or "voodoo". That solid foundation of knowledge is what you need to move on effectively. Note** I am talking about understanding things like how glues work, how wood dries, how basic electronics work, how a scale is developed, basic differences in finishes and how they cure. I would hazard a guess that a good portion of begginers do not take the time to study the basics(take a look at some of the responces or questions possed by guys on guitar 2,3,4,5...). No doubt after you understand these the basics you realise things are really not big deals(you all most view them in a matter of fact way, or take them for granted).

The evolution as a builder is a kinda funny thing. I had a funny start compaired to some around here. No boards to ask questions(internet wasn't cooking yet). A lot of reading and doing. As doing was the only way I could figure out if it worked. I started with repairs, re-finishes, re-fret, inlay, bolt together projects and so on. By the time I had a chance to build from scratch I had no fear of building(I was just so happy to be able to build everything on it myself). The internet was and is a gold mine of information. Having worked without it you really can appreciate it. I think it can be a double edged sword though. Some people don't really take it upon themselves to get in there and work it out when they can just ask for help( not that asking for help is a bad thing, but sometimes there is a fine line between help and helpless).

I think the longer you work on guitars the more comfortable you get in your abilities. As you mentioned you have to overcome those milestones to level out that confidence. You also get to a point where things start to seem silly. Like when a person tries to evaluate your work from a handful of pictures. In the same way you feel silly if you ask someone to rate your abilities from a picture.

I think it all comes down to get in there and do the work, and do your best. Also do it for yourself because you are passionate about the work. Look to yourself for evaluation, and be honest with yourself. Thats a whole lot of me, myself and I.

Peace,Rich

[rhoads56]

Perry- Can you add a bit of info on how you dry/season wood, and how much importance you place on this. (P.S. I am not really trying to grill you I am just trying to get a good snapshot of your methods).

Well, Australia has a VERY dry hot summer, and it never gets anywhere near freezing in the winter. I purchase timber that is already dry, rough sawn. I only buy 12% or less moisture when purchasing (furniture grade). I cut them up, label them, and then they sit for 3-6 months before machining, being stored in a hotter part of the workshop, which is not within the air conditioned areas...

After machining, they go into the rack in the building area until im ready to use them (3-6 months, but often longer). With the laminated necks, i glue them up straight away, and let them sit until im ready. Ive still got a stack of laminated neck blanks that need final machining (glued but not dimensioned), that were glued up in January... and will last me until at least mid next year. Around xmas i will do another batch for the following 12 months.

As for bodies, i like to have all the blanks in stock at the time someone makes a deposit, so the timber is reserved, and placed in the queue. I'll be buying timber before xmas, for guitars im building in 2008. I basically cut the planks into billets, rough sized, and leave them for 6 months. Then i machine half that stack into standard sizes, and leave them to sit. The stuff i ordered from you Rich, wont be used for at least 9 months.

You also get to a point where things start to seem silly. Like when a person tries to evaluate your work from a handful of pictures. In the same way you feel silly if you ask someone to rate your abilities from a picture.

I think it all comes down to get in there and do the work, and do your best. Also do it for yourself because you are passionate about the work. Look to yourself for evaluation, and be honest with yourself. Thats a whole lot of me, myself and I.

Peace,Rich

Yeah, the amount of times ive seen work on this forum, and the mistakes or bad workmanship are really obvious, but there are still 500 posts congratulating the builder, with outlandish claims like "OMG, you are better than PRS!!", etc etc etc. It makes me sick, and gives the builder a false senes of reality. Truth is, a lot of people cannot judge their own work against others and be objective, and cant handle constructive criticism.