P90 Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 OK, Black Micarta is sometimes used as a substitue for ebony in fretboards. So, let me see if I have this right... Micarta = paper-based phenolic Bakelite is also paper-phenolic Garolite XX is also paper-phenolic So far, it seems mostly a matter of brand names, but Micarta = Bakelite = GaroliteXX ??? In fact, if you search for Micarta or Bakelite... on McMaster.com.... it'll send you to Garolite! Right, so far? Googling... the specific gravity of these 3 seems to come up around 1.35-1.4 And the best Ebonies seem to come up (spec gravity) around 1.2-1.4 Also sound about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 OK, Black Micarta is sometimes used as a substitue for ebony in fretboards. So, let me see if I have this right... Micarta = paper-based phenolic Bakelite is also paper-phenolic Garolite XX is also paper-phenolic So far, it seems mostly a matter of brand names, but Micarta = Bakelite = GaroliteXX ??? In fact, if you search for Micarta or Bakelite... on McMaster.com.... it'll send you to Garolite! Right, so far? Googling... the specific gravity of these 3 seems to come up around 1.35-1.4 And the best Ebonies seem to come up (spec gravity) around 1.2-1.4 Also sound about right? It is my understanding that Bakelite has far less cellulose in it than Garolite. Bakelite is very prone to shrinkage over time where Garolite is more stable. I have no experience with Micarta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 (edited) Thanks! (Micarta is used on some Martin fretboards) Digging on Google a little more, the name "Micarta" is definitely owned by Norplex (a manufacturer) And the "Garolite" name is owned by McMaster? (a retailer) Hmmm.. who actually manufactures the Garolite? (Norplex? ) Edited February 15, 2007 by P90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hey Skip, I recognize you from Talkbass. Nice to see you over here... I hope you'll stick around and offer some of your knowledge. Your instruments are very impressive, and you've got some really innovatiove ideas going. I think a lot of DIY'ers are interested in composite materials, but are put off by high prices and specialized tools/techniques. I know some of this stuff is probably trade secret, but I was wondering if you would answer some questions about your fingerboards. Specifically, which variety of garolite do you use for your fingerboards? I haven't been able to find much for information, but I did read about a guy that was using the XX grade for neck laminates. From the McMaster data it looks like the material would be strong enough for fingerboard use, and it's cheap, too. Can it be machined with standard woodworking tools? I'd image the glass-cloth varieties would be murder on router bits and saw blades, but what about the paper-based ones? Also, what about safety? Is a respirator good enough, or do you wear gloves/protective clothing, too? What kind of glue can be used to attach the fretboard? Epoxy? Do you find radiusing the boards to be much more difficult than working with ebony and other hardwoods? As for fretting, is it the same as for wood, or do you have to glue the frets in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hey Skip, I recognize you from Talkbass. Nice to see you over here... I hope you'll stick around and offer some of your knowledge. Your instruments are very impressive, and you've got some really innovatiove ideas going. I think a lot of DIY'ers are interested in composite materials, but are put off by high prices and specialized tools/techniques. I know some of this stuff is probably trade secret, but I was wondering if you would answer some questions about your fingerboards. Specifically, which variety of garolite do you use for your fingerboards? I haven't been able to find much for information, but I did read about a guy that was using the XX grade for neck laminates. From the McMaster data it looks like the material would be strong enough for fingerboard use, and it's cheap, too. Can it be machined with standard woodworking tools? I'd image the glass-cloth varieties would be murder on router bits and saw blades, but what about the paper-based ones? Also, what about safety? Is a respirator good enough, or do you wear gloves/protective clothing, too? What kind of glue can be used to attach the fretboard? Epoxy? Do you find radiusing the boards to be much more difficult than working with ebony and other hardwoods? As for fretting, is it the same as for wood, or do you have to glue the frets in? I use McMaster's Garolite - phenolic by any other name... - I am using it for head caps, nuts and fret boards. It gives my basses a unity beyond the body that I like. It finishes jet black, and a radiused board actually shows some of the paper layers giving it a very subtle grain pattern. It polishes beutifully with no finish at all. It is much like machining ebony so it is a bit rough on blades and such. I use the paper/cellulose based material as that is all the stronger I need it to be. Definately use a mask/respirator - the dust is nasty - but no fumes to speak of. I like to catch the ends of frets with a small drop of cyano as I set them just 'cuz, but it isn't a requirement if the slots are done right. And the board itself can be glued down onto the neck with titebond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 i have never heard of this...where is a good place to buy this and how does it compare to ebony in weight and cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 (edited) Skip... thanks... your basses are VERY cool! For a while I've thought about not just an ebony fretboard, but an all-ebony neck for maximum sustain... but that would be expensive, and ebony supposedly is not so stable to humidity changes. Garolite/Micarta changes that. Wes... goto http://www.mcmaster.com/ and type "garolite" in the left frame and scroll down to garolite XX, then click around. As best I can tell, its MUCH cheaper than ebony, and yet its about the same density as the best African ebony. Edited February 16, 2007 by P90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 anyway to see a pic of it used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 very interesting. i ordered a sheet of it large enough for 4 fretboards at 3/16" thick for $18 roughly...sounds like fun for experimenting. it comes in a variety of thicknesses and sizes.could be good for inlays and such as well..or just about anything. knucklehead...it holds up well?i would assume so or you would not use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 You haven't lived until you've scalloped a phenolic fret-board. I've done it to two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 anyway to see a pic of it used? Here's a fretless I did; It holds up very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wow... Excellent work! Is it just the fb, or the *whole bass* thats made out of the black phenolic? (that would almost be the equivalent of an all-ebony bass) I also found this while Googling, for Norplex's version "Micarta" http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/490659 Reading the text of that, they're clearly going for the guitar (ebony) market: The material is constructed from a high quality black paper substrate and a black phenolic resin, making it ideal for a variety of architectural and construction applications that require a pure black surface. MC844G can also be used in various functional and decorative parts on musical instruments, such as guitar finger boards and bridges, and develops a patina with age and use. Additionally, MC844G is easy to machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wow... Excellent work! Is it just the fb, or the *whole bass* thats made out of the black phenolic? (that would almost be the equivalent of an all-ebony bass) I also found this while Googling, for Norplex's version "Micarta" http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/490659 Reading the text of that, they're clearly going for the guitar (ebony) market: The material is constructed from a high quality black paper substrate and a black phenolic resin, making it ideal for a variety of architectural and construction applications that require a pure black surface. MC844G can also be used in various functional and decorative parts on musical instruments, such as guitar finger boards and bridges, and develops a patina with age and use. Additionally, MC844G is easy to machine. The head cap, nut and fretboard are Garolite - the body is figured maple with a semitransparent black shellac. This one has to be my favorite to date (keep that to yourself - I don't want angry emails from my customers). Micarta sounds every bit the same as Garolite given the description. I don't think I'd care for an instrument made of it as it is awfully heavy. I hadn't considered using it as neck stringers but there is a possibility there - I use carbon fiber fabric in my necks so I think phenolic/garolite/micarta would be overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 shhhweeet.. i like the class of that bass...the headstock is a little bit of a contrast to the body,but that is probably just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 How are those neodynium pickups sounding?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 How are those neodynium pickups sounding?? Best sounding, most powerful passive, Hi Z humbuckers I have ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 How are those neodynium pickups sounding?? Best sounding, most powerful passive, Hi Z humbuckers I have ever heard. I'd throw in a "best looking" as well... I'm really considering these for a future project...They just look awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 the phenolic came in today... look guys...it's very hard...like ebony maybe...but it is WAAAY less stiff.it will add no stability at all as a fretboard that i can see. i think it would be great for some things...cavity covers,knobs,humbucker rings,etc...but it's just dense plastic.i will not be using it as any substitute for ebony...it's just not the same thing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 the phenolic came in today... look guys...it's very hard...like ebony maybe...but it is WAAAY less stiff.it will add no stability at all as a fretboard that i can see. i think it would be great for some things...cavity covers,knobs,humbucker rings,etc...but it's just dense plastic.i will not be using it as any substitute for ebony...it's just not the same thing at all. That's a bit of a disappointment. I was intending to use this on my next neck (a 5-string bass neck), but now I'm not so sure. I was planning on steel reinforcements for that neck, so the phenolic might still be in the cards. I'll have to give it some thought. I've heard nothing but good things about the Quake basses, so I can't imagine the material is entirely unsuitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Wes... so you're saying the 3/8" piece you bought bends much easier than a comparable piece of ebony? How does it (roughly) feel regarding *weight* compared to a similar size piece of ebony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 it's lighter than ebony...the piece i bought is 3/16"(same thickness i use for fretboards)and yeah it bends very,very easily. i am not saying it is entirely unsuitable as a fretboard...but it is no ebony substitute....and i would worry because fretboards provide alot of stiffness to a neck.i am sure some of the other types of garolite might be stiffer(this is the XX)but they are more expensive than ebony. you know that pickgaurd material you can buy from stewmac in sheets ?that's what this stuff is like. i really think cavity covers or pickgaurds and such may be the best use of this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hmmm... not good.... For a 3/8" x 24" x 12" sheet XX = paper laminate $27 CE = canvas laminate $42 LE = linen laminate $58 I'm curious how the linen version would compare to ebony? (The smallest piece I can find seems to be about $20) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 i think ebony is your best bet for an ebony substitute...in other words...not much choice if ebony is what you want. ever hear of african blackwood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I bought 2 phenolic fret-board slabs from Luthier's Mercantile back in the early 90's. It was 1/4" thick and very stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 i think ebony is your best bet for an ebony substitute...in other words...not much choice if ebony is what you want. ever hear of african blackwood? African blackwood(dalbergia melanoxylon-*Rosewood) is really nice. I just used it on a neck and bridge. It is much more rare and expensive than any of the Ebonies(Gabon/Nigerian, Madagascar, Mac, Asia(green) etc...). One wood that I have found to be very cool for fretboards that is similar in density and stiffness(although color is not black, it is more burgandy to brown) is Katalox. It is a very cool wood in my opinion and is very reasonable in terms of price. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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