True Temperament

[Odin]

Check this out!

http://www.truetemperament.com/main.php

[Scott Rosenberger]

pfft

[Demiurge]

It's stuff like this that scares newbies like me. It's really hard to concentrate on which design principles are best to use when there are so many people out there with their "everything you know is wrong, I'm the one who's got it right" methods/technologies. I wonder what a guitar with fanned, crooked frets, compensated zero fret, and optical picukps would look like...

[badsnap]

From my experience, every neck is unique, hence why we have adjustable bridges to fine tune the intonation. Now, I haven't spent the time to read through the sales pitch on the websight, but unless each neck is installed in the body that it is going to be mated with, and the crooked frets tuned to that setup, it seems to me that as soon as you attach it to the body, you WILL have anomalies that need to be compensated for. Basically, stringed instruments are not an exact science because the elements cannot be exactly contolled. I will, however, read through when time permits (i.e. when I have nothing else to do) and see what the heck this is!! Peace..Rog

[fryovanni]

Oh good lord , Lets see where this company is in three years. I don't even want to start with the upsides and downsides to that fretting system. Before you jump on a bandwagon and figure this to be a better method. Consider what people prefer to hear, what other factors come into play when you fret a string(that also effect intonation), what would it be like to bend on a fret like that, what would a re-fret cost, and are you ready to drop $600 on a repalacement fender neck.

Peace,Rich

P.S. Not really innovative in the sense that it is common knowledge.

[badsnap]

Hey Rich...good to see your input on this. I too (you and Mattia taught me well) did the research and thoroughly read the website information. It seems that they are just trying to excruciatingly compensate each fret for intonation. There are still variables involved (string type, bridge etc.) that were generalized, no matter how exact they claim to be. My thoughts were the same. What does the average person/player like to hear and the cost is quite high - INTRODUCTORY PRICE, Unlacquered neck: 3995 SEK / 450 EUR / 585 USD . Well...back to business. Peace...Rog

[another doug]

There was a recent thread where this idea came up (not sure if it was the same company cuz the website looked different). There were videos of people playing these things and the bends sounded ok. Here's the thread: fanned fret discussion

My problem with this idea is that it would make accurate fretting difficult. Since you want to fret a note right behind the fret, you would have to learn the location of the fret in every position on every string. Either that or you'd have to play while staring at the fretboard so your finger doesn't come down in front of a fret accidentally. Hard to look cool like that!

Plus, would you need a new neck if you change string guages?

Also, every guitar player I have heard, with the exception of those two mpegs from the website, has played straight frets. I think Clapton, Hendrix, Page, SRV, Vai, Satriani, etc. sounded pretty good, don't you?

Seems unnecessary to me.

[Lotza_Noize]

Thinking of having this done on my 3rd project double neck hard tail. I mean if I'm going to do a hard tail I might as well make damn sure the note is correct with the gauge of strings. Ya know?

[WezV]

this company have been around a little while now, at least i remember coming across the idea when i was a relative newbie... always the same response, some think its great and some think its the worst thing they have ever seen, some just dont think people will ever buy it.

the issues are always the same, how do you bend, how do you fret accurately, what happens if you change string gauge/action/tuning, do we really need to get rid of all the imperfections in music, will conservative thinking guitarists want something thats so bloody ugly, how do you dress the frets and what does a refret cost...

some people always say that none of that really matters in the quest for true temperament and some of them people may actually buy the thing... its a very small market though aint it

they are still going, so its obvious some like the idea but they dont seem to have advanced much in the last few years, certainly hasnt changed the face of the guitar world yet!!

i like 12 strings, possibly most beautiful guitar sound in the world and nearly impossible to tune with complete accuracy... Would i still like a 12 string if it was "improved" for perfect intonation and tuning? I am not sure. we can aim for as close as possibly while still being practical to build AND play and i am happy with that. The true temperament system compromises too much practicality for me.

[Ben]

http://www.truetemperament.com/main.php?go=19&lan=1

!!!!

I'd have to play it to believe it!

[erikbojerik]

pfft +1

This is not quite the same thing as intonation....it has to do with the imperfections of the 12-tone scale, and the fact that in an equal-tempered 12-tone scale the frequencies of the 3rds (and 7ths I think...) are not an interger fractional harmonic of the root (if I'm recalling this correctly).

In an equal tempered 12-tone scale, you get from a lower note to the next-higher note (a half-step up) by taking the root frequency and multiplying it by 2^1/12...to get the frequency of a note 3 half-steps away, you'd multiply the root freq by 2^3/12...a note 6 half-steps away, 2^6/12...and so on.

But the harmonics of the root are found by taking the root frequency and multiplying it by a factor (1+N/12) where N is the scale interval (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc). When you play these notes together with the root, certain wavelengths (notes) will have (be) harmonics in phase with the root (4ths, 5ths, and octaves where the fraction N/12 reduces to 1/Y...like 4/12=1/3 and 6/12=1/2), while the others will not be in phase with the root (2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths, minors).

This is why, when you play a (let's say) Dno3, it sounds smooth....but when you play Dmaj and add the 3rd, you hear this off-freq "beating" because the 3rd is not a natural harmonic of the root.

Example:

C4 is 261.63 Hz (middle C)

F4 is 349.23 Hz (5 half-steps up from C4, and an interval of a fourth above C4)

so 349.23/261.63 = 2^5/12 (ok)

but also 349.23/261.63 = 1 and 4/12ths (or 1-1/3) so F4 is a 4/12ths (+1) harmonic of C4

Wavelengths are IN-PHASE!! (same for the 5th which is 1-1/2 harmonic of C4)

now...

C4 is 261.63 Hz (middle C)

E4 is 329.63 Hz (4 half-steps up from C4, and an interval of a major-third above C4)

so 329.63/261.63 = 2^4/12 (ok)

but also 329.63/261.63 = 1.26 which is 1 and 3.11/12ths (i.e. the fraction does not have an integer in the numerator, i.e. it is a little sharper than the natural 1-1/4 harmonic)

Wavelengths are NOT in-phase!! This makes the 3rd sound out of tune to the ear, even though it is in fact perfectly intonated.

But you could bring this major-3rd in phase by detuning it slightly (by 0.11/12ths exactly...)...that's why the fretboard has all those humps underneath the G-string...to drop the major 3rd of all your 6-string barre chords into phase with the root.

The problem of course is that you can play 3rds (and 2nds and 7ths) all over the fretboard, not just where you play those "campfire chords". So any one fret arrangement works only for certain keys, tunings and chords....not all over the neck...if you commonly play different chord inversions, this scheme will work for only one set of them. And it is also the reason the company offers several different "temperaments" to their fret shapes.

Edited September 13, 2007 by erikbojerik

[Ben]

pfft +1

This is not quite the same thing as intonation....it has to do with the imperfections of the 12-tone scale, and the fact that in an equal-tempered 12-tone scale the frequencies of the 3rds (and 7ths I think...) are not an interger fractional harmonic of the root (if I'm recalling this correctly).

In an equal tempered 12-tone scale, you get from a lower note to the next-higher note (a half-step up) by taking the root frequency and multiplying it by 2^1/12...to get the frequency of a note 3 half-steps away, you'd multiply the root freq by 2^3/12...a note 6 half-steps away, 2^6/12...and so on.

But the harmonics of the root are found by taking the root frequency and multiplying it by a factor (1+N/12) where N is the scale interval (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc). When you play these notes together with the root, certain wavelengths (notes) will have (be) harmonics in phase with the root (4ths, 5ths, and octaves where the fraction N/12 reduces to 1/Y...like 4/12=1/3 and 6/12=1/2), while the others will not be in phase with the root (2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths, minors).

This is why, when you play a (let's say) Dno3, it sounds smooth....but when you play Dmaj and add the 3rd, you hear this off-freq "beating" because the 3rd is not a natural harmonic of the root.

Example:

C4 is 261.63 Hz (middle C)

F4 is 349.23 Hz (5 half-steps up from C4, and an interval of a fourth above C4)

so 349.23/261.63 = 2^5/12 (ok)

but also 349.23/261.63 = 1 and 4/12ths (or 1-1/3) so F4 is a 4/12ths (+1) harmonic of C4

Wavelengths are IN-PHASE!! (same for the 5th which is 1-1/2 harmonic of C4)

now...

C4 is 261.63 Hz (middle C)

E4 is 329.63 Hz (4 half-steps up from C4, and an interval of a major-third above C4)

so 329.63/261.63 = 2^4/12 (ok)

but also 329.63/261.63 = 1.26 which is 1 and 3.11/12ths (i.e. the fraction does not have an integer in the numerator, i.e. it is a little sharper than the natural 1-1/4 harmonic)

Wavelengths are NOT in-phase!! This makes the 3rd sound out of tune to the ear, even though it is in fact perfectly intonated.

But you could bring this major-3rd in phase by detuning it slightly (by 0.11/12ths exactly...)...that's why the fretboard has all those humps underneath the G-string...to drop the major 3rd of all your 6-string barre chords into phase with the root.

The problem of course is that you can play 3rds (and 2nds and 7ths) all over the fretboard, not just where you play those "campfire chords". So any one fret arrangement works only for certain keys, tunings and chords....not all over the neck...if you commonly play different chord inversions, this scheme will work for only one set of them. And it is also the reason the company offers several different "temperaments" to their fret shapes.

Very interesting.... where did you learn/ read all this?

[ToddW]

Not something I'll ever consider.

Anyone ever try alternate temperments for guitar instead of Equal temperment? Say Equal beating victorian temperment by Bill Bremmer or something like that?

Todd

http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2000-May/064705.html

Edited September 13, 2007 by ToddW

[Lotza_Noize]

http://www.truetemperament.com/main.php?go=19&lan=1

!!!!

I'd have to play it to believe it!

Yea I would not want to go that extreme.

[erikbojerik]

Picked up the guitar in 8th grade, took my first physics class in 11 grade....my last physics class was 7 years after that (I guess that'd make it 18th grade). For some reason, a lot of the physics that related to guitar (vibrating strings & such) stuck with me.

This is a pretty good site for some basics:

physics of music

[erikbojerik]

Anyone ever try alternate temperments for guitar instead of Equal temperment? Say Equal beating victorian temperment by Bill Bremmer or something like that?

At one point I actually stumbled on a fretboard maker who would sell you fretboards slotted in scales with almost any temperment....can't find it now. I think he laser cut his slots (trivial once you've got the math down).

[Guest AlexVDL]

Geezus... if you suck at guitar playing, don't blame it on the frets... what a dumbasses That neck is over the top

One cool thing though, fret bending would sound like chinese or indian music I guess

[aidlook]

actually it doesn't sound any different really... I've played one of these necks, and shure the intonation is good...But then again, I've never really considered it a real problem on any other electric guitar. It feels just like playing an ordinary neck, but it's really unneccesary in my opinion.

[Ben]

This is a pretty good site for some basics:

physics of music

Cool, thanks for the link!

I know very little music theory, and have only learnt a couple of scales 'by sight', (actually my method has been to draw dots in tippex on one of my old guitars on every fret thats 'allowed', then solo away on just the allowed frets a lot, until it stuck in my memory and I could do it on a guitar without the dots )

... but after reading that site a little and seeing the scales put simply as gaps between notes in half steps (e.g. 'Major: 2-2-1-2-2-2-1' etc), I found that if I can remember the sequence of gaps, I can work out where to put my fingers as I play, which I seem to find a lot easier than remembering a picture of a fretboard.

It just never clicked in my mind that I could remember a scale just by remembering the sizes of the 'gaps' like that. I presumed that to remember a scale any other way than visually would mean that I'd have to first learn off by heart which frets were A's , Bb's B's and so on (which I've never bothered to do. I can work them out quite easily, but I have to pause to think, which of course I dont have time for when playing [and this method is only working for me currently because I'm only playing in the key of E, since the E's are the only notes that I know all the positions of on the fretboard from memory]).

Basically I'm just feeling stupid for not thinking about this and realising this sooner

Could have saved myself a lot of time!

[erikbojerik]

Yep, that pattern of spacings you learned in E can be transposed all up & down the neck, allowing you to play in different keys. Over time, you'll expand the boundaries of those patterns both above and below the 12th fret and gain some freedom...until you've got the whole neck covered.

At the same time...when you do remember where all the As and Gs and Cs (etc) are, you'll really be free. Learning different chord inversions (i.e. figuring out the same chord at different positions along the neck) will help with that.

[Mr Alex]

Is it just me, or do those necks look like something a 3 year old on crack would draw?

I think some people need to take a step back, and look at the crap they come up with. You can't tell me that looking like a knob is worth having "perfect" thirds. I didn't realise my thirds were so wrong anyway. The beating sounds can be irritating, but there are work arounds that don't involve spending lots of money on wonky frets.

I can certainly understand a 12 year old being impressed by this, but real musicians seem to prefer playing their guitar. And there are alot out there that sound pretty good with nice straight frets.

[ToddW]

Anyone ever try alternate temperments for guitar instead of Equal temperment? Say Equal beating victorian temperment by Bill Bremmer or something like that?

At one point I actually stumbled on a fretboard maker who would sell you fretboards slotted in scales with almost any temperment....can't find it now. I think he laser cut his slots (trivial once you've got the math down).

But Bill's method is simply altering how you tune the guitar by a few cents, so the temperment is adjusted to the key you are in. It has nothing to do with fret position. Seems like we're discussing intonation and temperment interchangably.

Todd

[Odin]

Ive heard that Steve Vai is going to have this on his guitars now.

[djhollowman]

Surely the ultimate answer is to just have a fretless 'board???

There. Simple. As. That.

Vai's gonna use these????

Really?

Better buy shares in that company pronto then!!

DJ

[ToddW]

Ive heard that Steve Vai is going to have this on his guitars now.

I've been thinking about this. If you are planning to play with an orchestra, and can afford a guitar that only sounds good in a few keys, it seems reasonable to get one that is tuned and tempered to fit in with the orchestra. Segovia would probably have loved this, and I'd like the idea of using it on a classical guitar.

And even thought we're not talking about a classical guitar here, Billy Joel's, Elton John's, Alicia Keys' pianos are tempered. Perhaps we've finally reached the point where technology will allow this to be done for a guitar.

Then again, a piano isn't locked into a specific temperment, and "equal temperment" may not be the best sound for say J.S. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier" pieces. It's sure not what Bach was composing on/in.

Todd

edit: Just notice they offer different temperments, including one for that ^ exact collection, so I sent an email asking if they'd consider selling just a fretted fingerboard for a classical guitar.

Edited September 14, 2007 by ToddW