Summit School Of Guitarbuilding And Repair (?)

[Dylan]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this...

Are any of you familiar with the Summit School on Vancouver Island in BC, Canada?

I'm considering doing their full-year course... if any of you have any information or experience with it, it'd be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dylan

[GoodWood]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this...

Are any of you familiar with the Summit School on Vancouver Island in BC, Canada?

I'm considering doing their full-year course... if any of you have any information or experience with it, it'd be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dylan

Have you ever tried to build one yourself? This is not rocket science. For what ever the school costs, it will still cost you $2000.00 in tools if you have none at all. I was looking at Luthier violin schools, 40,000 and choked pretty bad. Get some books and do one first, even a spruce or cedar one, with cheap lumber. See if its what you really want to do.

[Vinny]

Hi Dylan, Are you planning on making a career as a full time luthier or just a hobby in your spare time?

I hope some of the veteran builders also give their thoughts on this. -Vinny

[verhoevenc]

I think if you want to go work for some already established company, yes, then getting a "degree" in luthery may be a good idea. However, as a hobbiest you're better off buying ALL the tools; I'm talkin' a big bandsaw, jointer, thickness sander, the works, as well as all the wood for 5-6 projects, and you'll STILL most likely be UNDER what that class it talking. And also, once you've built the guitars... atleast this way, you've still got the shop access to build more. After you've paid them and left, that's not the case. It really just involves alot of reading, discussing, and personal perseverance, which will be easy if this is what you enjoy. Hell, find a friend to do it with too! You'll push each other, and you'll have tons a fun as well as learn from each other's triumphs and mistakes.

I'm even going to go so far as to say that even if you want to be a career luthier in a one to two man shop, taking a classy is a bad idea. In this work, atleast as far as electrics go, there's SO much competition. The only things that really keep small luthier's going is a differentiated, original product (think Myka and the dragonfly, Scott French and the tuning folk hollows). If you go learn from a school, you're going to learn how to build like everyone else, and IMO not end up doing great. It's through the personal experimentation, learning from mistakes, and NOT having someone tell you what to do and being forced to think for yourself that you'll come up with something truely great.

So in the end, ask yourself: do I want to go work for Benedetto or PRS.... then sure go take the course. But if you want to be a one man custom shop or a hobbiest, you're better off buying the tools with your money and learning from people like us, and books/plans.

Chris

[fryovanni]

Ok, I was not really going to comment because I know NOTHING about this specific school.

I personally have learned without the aid of a hands on class. Looking back(well and certainly to the future as I do plan to attend a class or two) I can tell you that I would have learned faster, and would have avoided a lot of noodling around and trial and error. This applies to both my methods and tools.

You will find that learning from an experienced individual and being able to see how to do the work effectively will accelerate your learning. You will see tools, jigs and templates and how they are used. This will allow you to know what works well and refine that list of tools that will serve you best. This will in the end both save you time and money.

I don't know if I would take a full years worth of classes, but building a couple guitars in a learning environment seems like it would give you a great edge. These classes seem expensive, but really I believe they are pretty easy to justify in terms of value.

Peace,Rich

Edited February 28, 2007 by fryovanni

[Dylan]

GoodWood - I've built a solid body electric and I've dabbled in other areas of woodworking, which is the only thing I've been passionate about as a career in the future (I'm 16).

Most recently I built a greenland kayak. If you're interested:

The frame

My completed kayak (in the middle)

The whole gallery

Vinny - Yeah, I think I'd like to go into luthery as a career, ultimately. I would most likely start in whatever other areas of woodworking I could get my hands in.

verhoevenc - I don't want to work for a big company like PRS or Benedetto. You have a good point in that if I learned from such a school as this, I might lose that sense of originality that comes with learning on my own.

fryovanni - You, too, have a good point, I think. It could save me a lot of time and effort, a lot of messing around before I got it right. About justifying the potential class in terms of value, I think I especially am in a good position to do that. Not because I have a lot of money or anything, it's just that I am, as a high-school junior, supposed to be thinking about college right about now, and though $32,000 a year is expensive in terms of college, it's less than I would pay for the entire four years of most colleges out there.

Thanks, everyone.

Dylan

[fryovanni]

I have to say my opinion is totally based on a "hobbiest" take on learning. I would talk to people that are currently working in the industry(and are making a living doing this). They will be a better source if you are thinking of doing this for a living. I personally would be very hesitant to use college funds for a specific trade school if you are not very familiar with where you will work in the industry. Remember most careers do not last until retirement, and specific training vs a college edjucation can have a down side. If this is $30,000 dollars worth of trade school for a job that pays $9 hr. with no benifits that may not be such a good idea. If your path will lead you to owning your own repair or custom building shop. Are you prepaired for the heavy investment(bothin your time and capital) to try to make it happen. If it did not take off do you have a plan B. Personally, as I mentioned this is a hobby for me. I would have a very hard time trying to even match my current wages making guitars.

Peace,Rich

[menaceg]

Dylan, if it is your passion and if your good at wood working, go do it. Its your God given ability so use it.

[sexybeast]

If you plan on doing it as a career, it may pay off to take the classes. You can learn a lot of good practices in a short amount of time and skip all the time wasting and noodling. After that, you can apply yourself to the mediun in an original manner and work on your career a little more efficiently.

[verhoevenc]

But for serious, talk to industry guys! A lot of the guys who build for money/commission will tell you that it's a TOUGH industry to make it in. I even know some custom builders who regret the decision to have it as their only job, as well as contemplating getting out. There's just not that much money to be made, and unless you have something truly special and unique, there's already someone that does it, and does it better and cheaper than you. Don't get me wrong, there are people that do extremely well with it... but they are few and far between. Now that's for electrics. From what i can see there's a much bigger market for custom acoustics or all types (ie: flat-top, archtop, reso, etc.) The best ideas I've heard are from the people that build 1-2 instruments a month, and do it on the side of a normal job. That job pays the bills, but they are still allowed time to do what they love, and make some money off of it.

That's just my 2 cents (now you've got 4 total!).

Chris

[Vinny]

Some good advice here, Hey Dylan I say if you have the means to attend the school and thats your dream then go for it! If only I had my head screwed on straight when I was 16 to know what I wanted to do with my life. I noticed their website listed some former students testimonials about their experience, you could call them up to talk further about how they are doing now, are they making a living at it? What did the school not teach them, do they give you a business model when you leave after a years training to get you going?

Maybe consider getting a position as an apprentice/helper in a cabinet making shop, you would learn many techiques that transfer to making guitars and you'd draw a salary too. If you were to spend $1000 on tools and learned by asking questions on forums like this, buy 5 or 6 key books on the subject you could be turning out some cool guitars that would amaze your friends. With a surplus of $31,000 left over -Vinny

[cherokee6]

There are some guys that give daily or weekly courses with all sorts of flexibility for which class to take, etc. They are usually a lot cheaper. Check some places in your area; music shops, etc. If you take a short term course it will give you a lot of info, you'll still invest in the tools and it may help you decide if you want to do it full time or not.

There was a 1 or 2 week course given in Stratford, VT. not far from Hanover (Dartmouth College) NH years ago when I was going to school up that way. It was run by the guy who designed and built GRD guitars (with the built in equalizers and a polymer type of fretboard; looked like double cutaway LP's). He was getting some notice in the '80's, but I'm not sure if he's still around. The luthier's name was/is Charles Fox. Good luck with your decision.

PS: a quick Google found this: http://www.newportguitarfestival.com/lectures.html

[fryovanni]

Now that is a list of heavy hitters Cherokee6.

Charles Fox does have classes he offers-click.

If you acoustics are truely what you are interested in. You may want to talk to some people on the more acoustic oriented boards(there are a great group of people over at the Online Luthiers Forum). You certainly have enough time to get a couple guitars built while you are still in high school to see if this is what you are interested in. You may also want to think about attending one of the larger events where you could attend lectures, see other professionals work, and maybe just talk to them and get some feedback. I have found acoustic builders are quite a friendly and possitive group as a whole. You may very well be able to network with other builders(hobbiest and professional) in your area. I know members of the OLF organize many local get togethers.

Peace,Rich

[verhoevenc]

Not sure is Charles Fox is still around!? Ah hahahahahahahaha hell's yeah he is!

Also, Rich it's the Official Luthier's forum hahaha. No harm no foul

But Rich has a point, the guys over there are HUGELY social and helpful and some of the kindest people I know!

I joined, got interested in acoustics, and went to ONE tri-state get-together, and from that alone I have connections of people who are always willing to help me with hard to find wood, or just cheap wood for practise/nothing special. Other's that I actively trade things with and have a good time talking to. But even more remarkably, I met a guy that's gone so far as to take me under his wing and first-handedly teach me acoustic guitar building just cause he's an awesomely nice guy.

If that's not kindness I don't know what is. That's why I originally had said "maybe find some friends". Even if they don't directly teach you, the more luthier friends you have, the better idea of things you're gunna get. But yeah, acoustics wise the OLF is a HUGE resource and a great place to hang and meet people.

Chris

Edited March 1, 2007 by verhoevenc

[GoodWood]

Basicly, for 1 year, $30,000+ is absurd. Thats what harvard costs. a 4 year apprentship for violin is $40,000 for 4 years. It takes 4 years to learn to make a violin, but 1 year for a guitar? back/front dishes are ready made, dovtails take a few tries to get just right, not rocket science. Voicing front and backs would be worth $1000.00 workshop if you can get that. I tried to sell a no name custom guitar and got one offer $600.00 You have to market you stuff also, which is business 101. Do they have a marketing course for your instant $3000.00 guitars?

You could probably find a working luthier to teach you for free, (free labor on your part) for a year. You would just need a secondary job to pay rent.

Ok, thats $200 for me right there! Ill PM my addy

I fully understand that I will have to blow you away, one way or the other, to get your $2000.00+ for one of my guitars,and expect it to take 2-3 years. BUT I have a marketing plan, (unproven as of yet). Im an artist woodcaver and I am going to push this stuff like no one, but I have already had 10+ 'new ' ideas about how to build the guitar, and ALL of them have been done by someone. Im also the worlds biggest acoustic guitar freak. Im up at the 99.999999999 level. Love the wood do I. I read about KINKEADS guitars the other day. People are blown away by his stuff. I was blown away reading what they said about his guitars. Now I want a friggin Kinked guitar. GRRRRRRr

I can definetaly market this stuff, and MARKETING, the dirty word, is what it is about, Good or BAD, push it. Like TAYLOR, I just looked at a $4000.00 taylor guitar, and laughted. What kind of an idiot would buy this? "Oh, it has special walnut sides", god the sales bullshit was so thick youd think you were at a DAIRY. Nonsense, they were SELLING a $1000.00 guitar for a huge ass markup. There is where you maket is, take it away from martin and taylor. Youd be insane to buy the crap factory guitar when you could get a kinkead for about the same, but who has heard of KINKEAD? I knew nothing about custom builders until 8 months ago, and Im the worlds BIGGEST acoustic junkie. Lot I know.

but from what Ive read about Kinkead, man, if your a tone freak, I had better do you right, and that will not come overnight or from a $32,000 a year school, unless you are building 3 a month and have a friggin good ear. For that price, I would BUY a Kinkead, and go find a luthier, and build em till you approach his stuff.

Another $200.00 please!!!

Edited March 1, 2007 by GoodWood

[GoodWood]

Ok, I didnt want to get into a pissing war over tha fact that Im the worlds top acoustic guitar luvin freak, so I'll just say no one is above me on that!

[Dylan]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Let's see, what can I respond to....

First of all, I found it interesting that Vinny said this.

Maybe consider getting a position as an apprentice/helper in a cabinet making shop, you would learn many techiques that transfer to making guitars and you'd draw a salary too.

My oldest brother (just turned 30) is getting his shop set up to be the local cabinetmaker. He lives in our hometown, Cushing, and he will, in another year or so, be needing employees for his shop. So I could do that, yeah, and I would like doing that. I'd have shop space, too, and tools (he's very well set up in that respect) so I wouldn't have to make those investments all at once in the beginning of my transition into guitar building.

Also... a few of you mentioned business/marketing. They do not teach you to market your guitars, according to one of the students I emailed. That's definitely a negative point.

And to what GoodWood said, yeah, there are a few luthiers in my area that I could work with (not for free, but for less than the Summit School). I would definitely consider that over this.

The feeling I'm getting is that, though I would benefit from this school, I would also invest a LOT of money into something that I could achieve more easily right here in Maine. I'm glad you were all here to bounce ideas off of.

Thanks,

Dylan

Edited March 2, 2007 by Dylan

[Southpa]

Huh, I was just up in that area a few days ago applying for a job at Big Qualicum River fish hatchery. If I had seen this post beforehand I might have searched the place out and checked the facilities as I arrived 2 hrs before my interview was supposed to start. But yeah, they are a little on the pricey side of life. If I won the lottery I would attend.

[fryovanni]

Dylan,

It sounds like you may very well be in a very good position. Working in your brothers cabnet shop while you work on your Luthiery skills(after work weekends and such) will give you enough time to hone your skills. Access to large shop equipment and wood to work with will also give you a big advantage over someone that tries to aquire this all just to get going. Call it a safety net, launch pad or what have you. It will provide you with time to develop skills and a reputation. The fact that your day job would be woodworking sounds like the perfect fit.

As far as the price of classes, courses, lectures and events. These can seem expensive to a person who is not selling their work. You really have to look at the class your level and take it from there. Some of the instructors out there that hold these classes are not begging for students. They are overbooked and just getting into the class is a challenge. The classes that are held by these master luthiers will give you insights that they have developed from a lifetimes worth of building. Not every class is going to be right for you when you start. You really need to pick and choose. An emersion course in construction, repair, and business is going to be a lot to take in.

There are instructors like Charles Fox who has taught many people who have developed into well known luthiers. I would bet that in the acoustic world you will be hard pressed to find any of the most successful builders that have not been impacted by the work of guys like Ervin Somogyi, Harry Fleishman, Charles Fox(the list could go on). The fact that these individuals are even willing to share their knowledge is amazing. They are overbooked with requests for guitars. The asking price for those guitars is not questioned by the people who feel lucky to even be able to buy them. When you buy a Charles Fox guitar for $8000 and up(Ergo starting closer to $15K) you are not paying for material. You are paying for his experience, and the same holds true with his classes.

Sorry for the bit of a long winded rant about the worth of classes. I do not agree with many things GW mentioned in his responce and wanted to add a bit about some of the instructors out there. I would ignor the marketability until you learn the skills to take to market. Forget about the value of material=value of guitar until you know what to do with different materials(and that does not translate to factory averages for large production, every bit of material is a bit different and you need to learn how to adjust your construction to achive your goal). These are tactile and intuitive skills that come with time and experience(sometimes those instructors can open your eyes to what may have taken you years worth of work to realise).

I wish you the best of luck with your pursuits. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders.

Peace,Rich

[ibanez_crazy]

I was actually thinking about trying this place out.

Speciman guitars

They are not to far from my house, and have hands on courses on guitar electronics, fretting courses, and complete building. They also have alumni nights where its seems like its an open shop night for former students. 3400 for the complete course, 350 for the electronics course.... A lot cheaper than 32 grand. See if there is something similar to this near you.....might giva ya a chance to test the waters

[Dylan]

Southpa - Funny how those things work out (or don't work out) sometimes... it's a small world.

fryovanni - Thanks so much for the advice... the rant. I think I've been learning to recognize the insights that can be gained, and the years of experimentation, from studying under a master. Now, whether or not that will come in the form of a school, an apprenticeship, or whatever else, I will find out. After more research, that is.

ibanez_crazy - That looks like an interesting place. Some of the instruments looked pretty outlandish. An electronics course might be something I'd be interested in. Even though I want to ultimately focus on acoustics, I do have an interest in experimenting with what you can achieve through different wiring set-ups and mods on electrics.

Thanks errbody.

[matttheguy]

f

Edited June 28, 2007 by matttheguy

[MCH]

Don't know if this thread is valid or not.

But I can tell you a little about Summit's location. I refer to it as a slice of heaven. Vancouver Island is a gorgeous place. I live down the road from the Summit school.

Is the cost worth it? The scenery sure is.

[mikevirok]

GoodWood - I've built a solid body electric and I've dabbled in other areas of woodworking, which is the only thing I've been passionate about as a career in the future (I'm 16).

Most recently I built a greenland kayak. If you're interested:

The frame

My completed kayak (in the middle)

The whole gallery

Vinny - Yeah, I think I'd like to go into luthery as a career, ultimately. I would most likely start in whatever other areas of woodworking I could get my hands in.

verhoevenc - I don't want to work for a big company like PRS or Benedetto. You have a good point in that if I learned from such a school as this, I might lose that sense of originality that comes with learning on my own.

fryovanni - You, too, have a good point, I think. It could save me a lot of time and effort, a lot of messing around before I got it right. About justifying the potential class in terms of value, I think I especially am in a good position to do that. Not because I have a lot of money or anything, it's just that I am, as a high-school junior, supposed to be thinking about college right about now, and though $32,000 a year is expensive in terms of college, it's less than I would pay for the entire four years of most colleges out there.

Thanks, everyone.

Dylan

Dylan, I did look into the Summit School about a year ago. After getting all of the information, that price was killing me. I'm 25 (well, 3 months shy of it) and I'm a full-time pharmacy technician and human resources manager for the same L.L.C. in my hometown of Trenton, NJ. I have worked there since I was 17, and for the 5 years that I went to college I toggled part-time and full-time statuses until I managed to inch my way up the totem poll. In the past year, my disgust for the inability to use my degree (BA in Fine Arts; I'm a painter/sculptor at heart) and my artistic talents had left me desiring more from a job. My girlfriend works in Maryland near the region that Paul Reed Smith Guitars is located, and I began thinking to myself that if I could put the time into becoming a luthier of sorts then I could have a better life for myself: use my degree, fuel my passion for guitars, and also be closer to where I want to be in life.

My decision back in November of 2006 was settled: I was going to attend a 6 week (40 day, 300 hour) workshop in Georgia known as the Atlanta Guitar Workshop. This program only accepts 5 students maximum at a time and is quite extensive, at least from what I can tell from contacting the owner & head teacher. It was $5,200 for the 40 days, which was/is quite a lot of money. But I am looking to make this my career somehow, no longer at the pharmacy I have been at for the past 7 years that has yet to find a way to reward my dedication.

So, considering your age of 16, I know how this seems like a great thing for you to do and (obviously) not knowing anything more about you other than from these posts I cannot say either way that going to the Summit School or not

would be good or bad. We all live in different scenarios, all dealing with separate issues. My $5200 venture down south (yes, I am driving down too) is going to leave me 4 weeks pay-less from my current job, a full month out rent un-utilized, gas for my car, etc... and I will most likely be a bit broke when I return to my home in July. I don't even know if I am going to be able to get a particular job in this field when I come back from the course. It is scary, and I can't say what the outcome will be.

The one thing I started to realize is that the knowledge and experience that I gain from this course will never be taken from me. Even if I am stuck at the pharmacy working there for another 7 years (although I hope not to be!!!), I will know how ot build and repair instruments and make a happy past-time and side job out of that. One of my plans is as an artist to approach the guitar as a functional work of art that should be just as worthy to hang on a NYC gallery wall as a pricey abstract expressionist painting is. So, if spending over $5k to learn what I have wanted to for a very long time and experience that escape to the world of guitar-art, then that's what I will do.

Find the meaning and purpose for yourself and you will know if the price is right.

[rlrhett]

As someone who has been in this hobby for a number of years now, I can tell you most of the people in these courses are Baby Boomers with money to burn and no children in college anymore. Hey, what do they care what it costs if they get to be on an extended vacation/retirement trip to Vancouver and lean some cool new hobby? Unfortunately, they don't need the money and can spend almost unlimited money and time building guitar masterpieces. Then, of course, they all try to sell their guitars. Go to the Heldsburg festival and see what I mean. Heldsburg has 150 luthiers displaying their work and had to turn hundreds more away. These people will sell you a guitar for $1,500 just so they can pay for tools. Hard to compete. Hedge your bets with another career.

On the other side, I never hear mention on these boards of the Cabinet and Furniture Technology program at Palomar College in San Marcos, California. It's a real shame people aren't turned on to this program. This is a a comunity college (read VERY cheap, about $150 per class/semester), is one of the best woodworking and furniture programs in the country and... wait for it... has an excellent lutherie class. You could go to Palomar College, get an associate's degree in cabinetry and furniture making, work with excellent woodwokers (Sam Maloof ocasionally guest teaches), and learn the essentials on making an acoustic guitar from a talented instructor. No, he doesn't have the caché of Charles Fox, but he'll teach you the solid fundamentals of guitar making. When you are done you will have all the skills to open a cabinet shop or work in any cabinet/furniture studio you want. You will also be able to build guitars as a part of your portfolio and build up your skills and reputation. Two years, a degree in something more or less useful and only a few grand in tuition, what's not to like?

(Just to be fair, I should mention that San Diego has some of the most expensive housing in the contry. A modest little home can easily cost $800,000, so YMMV.)