Ar-Pharazon Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I got myself a reissue 84 BC Rich NJ Classic Bich (please no comments on my taste in guitars)... anyhoo, I like the action pretty high for the sake of the dynamics and tone, but I have found that the intonation on this thing is almost impossible to get right. Given that I have never owned a non-trem guitar before, is this a standard gripe with this type of bridge (given that the nut is also variable compared to a locking floyd)? given that I am not going to touch the nut, is there anything I can do about this, or should I just find a good luthier (hard to come by in Brisbane). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Intonation issues are caused by pressing the string down to the fret, which can pull the string sharp. Compensating at the bridge makes up for it. But the bottom line is that with higher action you are more at risk of pulling the string too sharp. Since TOM bridges don't have as much "travel" as some other styles of bridges, it might not be able to sufficiently compensate. I have 2 TOM guitars, with medium action and "light" (10-52) strings, and no compensation issues. So it's not necessarily JUST the bridge, but it CAN be a contributing factor depending on the rest of your setup. How would you describe your specific intonation problems? IOW, how have you identified that there's a problem? During the intonating process, or while you're playing chords? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar-Pharazon Posted June 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Intonation issues are caused by pressing the string down to the fret, which can pull the string sharp. Compensating at the bridge makes up for it. But the bottom line is that with higher action you are more at risk of pulling the string too sharp. Since TOM bridges don't have as much "travel" as some other styles of bridges, it might not be able to sufficiently compensate. I have 2 TOM guitars, with medium action and "light" (10-52) strings, and no compensation issues. So it's not necessarily JUST the bridge, but it CAN be a contributing factor depending on the rest of your setup. How would you describe your specific intonation problems? IOW, how have you identified that there's a problem? During the intonating process, or while you're playing chords? Ok sorry for not being clear... it certainly isn't to do with pulling sharp... the intonation is actually flat at fret 12 and the bridge intonation insert is as far forward as the screw will allow... I use 10-52 strings and I can get all but the high B and E correctly intonated. Hope that gives you a clear picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 When you are measuring the fretted notes, what are you comparing with? Are you comparing to the flageolets at the 12’th fret or do you use a good tuner. I recommend the latter. Personally I use a Peterson strobe tuner. Next thin to come to my mind: are the strings old or new? Old worn strings will never intonate. And what about the fret? A worn fret will mostly make the fretted note sharp, but it is a good idea to check this. Does it intonate on fret 3, 5 and so on. If the guitar is out on all those frets you might have a problem with the position of the nut. Check the nut to first fret distance. Generally this have been covered a lot of times and a search might turn up factors that I have forgotten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Agree with the above-- also, is your saddle flipped around so that the contact point is closer to the nut? It probably is by default, but it seemed worth asking. If you follow all the above advice, and your fretted note is still flat compared to the open note/harmonic, then I'm not sure what else you could do. I have a Wilkinson roller TOM that mounts the saddles differently and might therefore let you set compensation a bit further toward the nut. Plus, it has quasi-TonePros allen-screw locking which might allow you to seat the whole bridge a bit further ahead without repositioning the studs. Just an idea, and possibly not the right one. Just thinking aloud. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar-Pharazon Posted June 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Thanks both of you for your time... I suspected it might be the nut before I posted because I did search before asking...but I thought I would ask anyway, which means its off to mr luthier... yeah its basically sharp up to 12 and flat past 12. The guitar is new so there is no fretwear at all (they are still polished and shiny) and I just put on new strings to see if that would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 You should put a capo on the first fret, than tune and do your intonation checking. That way you can see if it's the nut or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar-Pharazon Posted June 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 You should put a capo on the first fret, than tune and do your intonation checking. That way you can see if it's the nut or not. Good thing you mentioned that... just tried it there and both B and E are still half a note out... I also noticed that it looks like the bridge is pointing towards the tailpiece just slightly... could it be that it somehow managed to get bent? seems like the real culprit isn't the nut, even though it may be part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 A T-O-M bridge should have the bass side set back about 1/8" further than the treble to accomodate for the less travel in the saddles. Since you are still having problems with the capo on, I would check the saddles on the bridge. Like someone mentioned earlier, make sure the flat edge of the saddle is facing the neck, this will allow you a little more travel for intonation. How hard are you pressing on the strings, do they end up touching the fretboard. That will pull them out of tune as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 A half a note?! That's way far out for it to be anything but a ) a manufacturing defect b ) human error during intonation process I don't think any amount of hints will save you if it's option A. On the other hand, if it's option B your fix is only minutes away!... I absolutely do not mean to be insulting but genuinely helpful here, please believe me, but-- are you fretting on the correct fret? It's a longshot, since it should be more than just the B and E that are "out" if you're doing it wrong. When you're referencing your intonation instructions, are you following them to a tee? Retuning the string after each saddle move, etc? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Ross Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 If this is a new guitar, I'd take it back & demand one in good condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Following up on the "manufacturer's defect" theme-- What is the measurement from the nut to the 12th fret, and then from the 12th fret to the high E saddle (fully forward)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar-Pharazon Posted July 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Following up on the "manufacturer's defect" theme-- What is the measurement from the nut to the 12th fret, and then from the 12th fret to the high E saddle (fully forward)? the total length is 64.7cm or 647 mm, and to the middle of 12th is 32.25 (322.5mm) by my reckoning that means that I am about 1mm lacking... which is a pain. At the moment I am seriously considering a visit to the city, to a luthier, because, after redoing the relief on the neck, the intonation actually got slightly worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Following up on the "manufacturer's defect" theme-- What is the measurement from the nut to the 12th fret, and then from the 12th fret to the high E saddle (fully forward)? the total length is 64.7cm or 647 mm, and to the middle of 12th is 32.25 (322.5mm) by my reckoning that means that I am about 1mm lacking... which is a pain. At the moment I am seriously considering a visit to the city, to a luthier, because, after redoing the relief on the neck, the intonation actually got slightly worse. Not sure how you are measuring, and it is not easy to be extreamly accurate with most rules, you can easily be off 1 mm( the fret itself is 2 mm wide and your string may very well not break dead on center). 1mm will not put you 1/2 step out(unless you meant 1/2 cent). From what you say, your action is a little on the high side. This should require a little extra length on the strings to comp. Which would bring your extra length that you have measured closer to being correct. What you are describing is not making sense(is what I am getting at). A full accurate set up would be a good idea. Nut height, check fret level, set relief, action(I am not sure how high you have it set, but very high action will cost in tuning accuracy), and a fresh set of strings. If you do not have the proper tools or are not confident. You would be best served taking it to a professional. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar-Pharazon Posted July 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Not sure how you are measuring, and it is not easy to be extreamly accurate with most rules, you can easily be off 1 mm( the fret itself is 2 mm wide and your string may very well not break dead on center). 1mm will not put you 1/2 step out(unless you meant 1/2 cent). From what you say, your action is a little on the high side. This should require a little extra length on the strings to comp. Which would bring your extra length that you have measured closer to being correct. What you are describing is not making sense(is what I am getting at). A full accurate set up would be a good idea. Nut height, check fret level, set relief, action(I am not sure how high you have it set, but very high action will cost in tuning accuracy), and a fresh set of strings. If you do not have the proper tools or are not confident. You would be best served taking it to a professional. Peace,Rich I understand all of what you are saying, but to be honest I think it will take more than simple set-up. As I have said before, the nut is not the issue here, as capo'ing the 1st fret gives 'exactly' the same intonation problems, down to the same tuner reading. As it is currently set up, the action is now the lowest it will go without buzzing, the neck is close to straight (0.38mm [rounded] between the bass string on the 7th fret and the fret when the string is depressed at fret 24) all to make sure that the string distance is not the issue. I know it doesn't make sense, unless its the bridge that is the problem... Oh, and I was wrong about the intonation being worse.. checked it again using a proper tuner this time and its still out but its only 1-1 1/2%... still annoying though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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