Overwound Pickup Myth?

[OrenG]

Hello all,

It has been quite a while since I last posted here, and I had a question about pickups, so I figured what better place then Project Guitar?

Anyways, I've been reading up on Strat pickups and getting a warmer tone since I have a late 2007 model Mexican made strat that doesn't do the fender sound any justice. So the question is really what kind of pickups should I get for my Strat? I was thinking about a set of Tex Mex's.

-Thanks,

OrenG

Edited March 13, 2008 by OrenG

[SwedishLuthier]

OK…what's the myth from the topic title?

Also; What do you need in terms of sound? Please define "Warmer". You will have to be a bit more specific.

Before I move on I must say that I have never tried the texmex pickups so all of this comes from my general experience from winding pickups.

The texmex pickups are quite a bit overwound. The vintage style Strat pickups have a turn count around 8000 turns resulting in a DC resistance of slightly less than 6 K ohms. The texmex bridge is 7.4K and the mid and neck is 6.4K. That would imply a turn count like 9900 turns for the neck pickup and 8500 for the rest (rough numbers here).

To give you some more feeling about what happens to the sound when you add that much to a Strat pickup; I recently made a Strat set (bass magnets all Alnico5 magnets and treble magnets all Alnico2) were the bridge had 9200 turns, mid had 8500 turns and the neck had 8000 turns. The bridge pickup has a nice rock sound with added mid but none of that SRV “cluck” in the sound , the second and fourth positions were decent “in between” sounds and the neck were the only bluesy pickup with a scent of vintage in the sound from that set. It was all fine ‘cause that was what I aimed for. I just got a tiny bit too much mid and output from the bridge pickup. Should have stayed at 9000 turns…So the texmex bridge will probably have even more of that same characteristics as my bridge pickup. More mid, even less top (ok compensated by brighter sounding A5 magnets for the unwound strings) and a more “compressed”, less dynamic sound compared to more “normal” Strat pickups.

Also remember that 9900 turns for the texmex bridge is very close to the 10 000 turns of a P90! That might give you a bit of perspective. If a mid-heavy rock sound is what you’re after the texmexs might be exactly what you need. But if you’re after a more vintage sound, forget them.

So you see, you need to be more specific when asking questions.

[psw]

I have been very impressed by the Jeff Beck Noiseless (not the SCN or vintage noiseless models) if you are looking for something with a little more power, fender sound and humcancelling too, I found them to be a very impressive sound.

A lot depends on what you want and what you run it into, the tones you typically use...so many aspects. The pickups are only one part of the signal chain, an important one of course, but just one.

I had a conversation with my brother recently who tried out a few of my guitars. He is mainly a vocalist but likes to hit full clean bar chords. He remarked when offered a tele that he could never get along with their overly bright sound. He is in the market for an good amp and guitar, I was showing him my fender hot rod deluxe, but what he an many others fail to do is to use the often extensive tone controls on an amp to tailor it to the sound of the guitar you are plugging into it. All too often we plug anything into an amp and expect a good sound to come out regardless of the settings. A guitar or pickup is judged by the sound it makes into the same amp set up to sound good (or possibly bad) with something else.

Just a little rant, shame the topic held some promise but delivered less than I had hoped in a discussion...what are the overwound pickup myths???

pete

[Geo]

the topic held some promise but delivered less than I had hoped in a discussion...what are the overwound pickup myths???

pete

That's what I thought...

My take on it: the myth is that overwound pickups sound good!

[psw]

the topic held some promise but delivered less than I had hoped in a discussion...what are the overwound pickup myths???

pete

That's what I thought...

My take on it: the myth is that overwound pickups sound good!

I thought that they were supposed to sound bad...and that this was going to turn out to be the myth...seriously!!!

Or at least there would be some discussion on this "issue" or some opinions expressed.

Or...better yet, the "myth buster's" or someone of that ilk would show up and take it top the nth degree to prove the point. Let's see....set up an experiment where we assume that higher valued magnets and more windings are better, and so take a guitar and apply a junkyard electromagnet and use it to suck the strings right off the guitar...proving that ultimately the sustain was killed...exploding the "myth"...

oh well, perhaps it will remain a myth...but I am still at a loss of what the myth is!!! Perhaps it is just that people felt that certain pickups had a certain mojo about them and due to inconsistencies in windings and "aging" of magnets in manufacture back in the day, these resulted in overwound pickups and their ability to drive and amp a bit harder being coveted.

Besides EMG and the take up by bass players of active electronics, I never have quite understood why this never really took off for guitars as a means to manipulate output and pickup "tone". EMG have a particular sound, but active electronics need not make a pickup setup sound clinical or require low impedance pickups to be effective...

Anyway...

pete

[OrenG]

The so called "over wound" pickup myth, is probably one that is false, there is no myth, but the myth is supposedly that overwound pickups do nothing more for the tone of the guitar.

-OrenG

[CrazyManAndy]

Some say you don't need overwound pickups if you've got an EQ and/or pedals.

I think active pickups have a really cool tone. Already contemplating a build with them in it. Actives and passives both have something to offer, so I think it's good to have a healthy balance of both! (another excuse for more guitars )

CMA

Edited March 13, 2008 by CrazyManAndy

[Mickguard]

What about this 'scatterwound' thing...what's that all about?

[marksound]

A guy I know, Curtis Novak, makes pickups and is starting to get a lot of much deserved attention. Some say he's nailed Leo's tone. Here's what he has to say:

Over-wound Pickups

I believe a pickup should NOT be thought of in terms of output, but rather of input. The function of a pickup is to sense the string and send as wide of a tone band as possible to your rig.

The problem with an over-wound pickup is that the high and low tones fall off while the middle tones become over-emphasized—resulting in a narrower tone band and a "one trick pony" guitar. This drastically limits your tone possibilities.

If it is overdrive and heavy mids that you want, you can easily get that from a pedal, when you NEED that tone leaving you free to explore other tones with your guitar.

Why do you feel a hand scatter "slop" wound pickup sounds better than a precision machine wound modern pickup?

I am no Dr. Science so I can't say for sure. Besides I think that winding pickups is actually more of an art than science (or business), so my production theories are based from that. I remember as a kid helping my Dad run a TV antenna wire, way before cable. You were told to never run the antenna wire parallel to other wires because it will cause signal interference. With a cam driven machine wound pickup each wrap lays next to the previous wrap, causing what I believe a lot of signal bleed. With a hand scattered winding pattern you get a more random pattern.

[orgmorg]

I remember as a kid helping my Dad run a TV antenna wire, way before cable. You were told to never run the antenna wire parallel to other wires because it will cause signal interference. With a cam driven machine wound pickup each wrap lays next to the previous wrap, causing what I believe a lot of signal bleed. With a hand scattered winding pattern you get a more random pattern

Well, I'm certainly no Dr. Science either, but I don't know if the analogy he is using is really relevant.

With the antenna wire, the other wires that he is laying his wire unparallel to are carrying different signals.

In the pickup, it's all one wire/one signal, right?

I'm not saying the scatterwinding isn't producing any improvement, but if it is, I don't think that's why.

[psw]

Scatterwinding is a necessary consequence of hand and small production runs, it is extremely hard to impossible to lay pickupwire evenly without some overlapping, so custom builders often overemphasis this.

But, there is a science to this. Current through wires have a skin effect (wiki) where in the electrons are flowing largely on the outside of the wire. This effect is largely caused by eddy currents (wiki) which oppose the AC current within a pickup coil.

Note this..."The skin effect causes the effective resistance of the conductor to increase with the frequency of the current."

If you consider this, the notes of a guitar are not really in such a high range for this to have a dramatic effect on it working (that is reproducing the notes played on a guitar), however what is really gives "tone" to a guitar or a pickup is the harmonics behind the fundamental frequencies played, the mix of these frequencies and such. These harmonics will be in "very high frequency ranges and the ability for a pickup to "hear" them and translate them into electrical energy will be affected by the skin effect, eddy currents and such.

One reason "overwound" pickups have had a very bad reputation is that in order to get that much wire onto a coil, they have had to use much smaller wire dramatically reducing the area on it's surface for which electrons can flow. They of course usually have more turns to the coils, so more eddy currents are created and, they may also need to be more neatly wound in order to fit it all in there, overlapping, scatterwindings, can add a lot to the bulk of a coil and how much "air" is between the wires (unwind a machine made neatly coiled ball of string and try and hand wind this back to the same size...no can do!).

More importantly to the scatterwinding principle is the related proximity effect (wiki) which is the way in which conductors within a coil in close proximity distribute AC current, just as in a pickup coil.

"When an alternating current(AC) flows through an isolated conductor, it creates an associated alternating magnetic field. The alternating magnetic field induces eddy currents within adjacent conductors, altering the overall distribution of current flowing through them.

The proximity effect significantly increases the AC resistance of adjacent conductor when compared to its resistance to a DC current. At higher frequencies, the AC resistance of a conductor can easily exceed ten times its DC resistance."

The idea of scatterwinding is by randomly overlapping wires, the eddy currents, skin and proximity effects are broken down a little and the impedance (resistance) of the high frequencies is less and the coil becomes a little more efficient then at transmitting these high frequencies.

It is these high frequencies where we hear the character of a tone of an instrument....just about anything will reproduce the note played on a guitar, but the effect of these things will reduce the detail behind the note.

So...more coils of wire, more wire skins up against one another, thin wire with less skin...all add up to resisting higher frequencies where "tone" lives. Scatterwinding helps by laying random wires across the coils breaking down the skin, and proximity effects and so lessening the resistance of the AC current to flow at high frequencies.

Now another approach would be to lessen the number of turns, so less wires are next to each other and so lessening these effects...this would create a low impedance coil, like you may find in an active pickup. More of these higher frequencies, but far less current. The answer is to add a preamp to raise this signal to an appropriate level for amplification down the line.

An extreme case is Lace's radical Alumitone Pickups

These have a single "coil" of wire (although, they cheat a little as there is a transformer under them which of course is a coil of wire!!!). The wire is that silver part (aluminium), the gray part the magnets. So, a high surface area ("skin") for the current to flow on and no proximity effects (no overlapping wires at all!).

But, there is more to "tone" than that. It would seem the "way to go then" would be low impedance pickups and hi-fi active systems...or to go even further and reduce the coils to none and maximize the surface area of the "wire" as in these interesting lace designs. But we all know that there is a lot of mojo in pickup building and different pickups are good for one player or music than another and some things sound good to some and not to others...we covert pickup designs over seventy years old and are reluctant in all these years to consider even a different sized, shape "package"...the alumitones are radical in that they have square ends, but they are still designed to fit the expected stratocaster pickup hole right! Why not abandon magnetic pickups and their coils completely and use piezo's to pickup the vigartion of the bridge and process it to taste (like the Variax) or...even more radical, use light to sense the strings vibrations (lightwave pickups)...

Part of the reason is that these effects (eddy currents, proximity and skin effects...and a whole lot of other factors) have created the sound we know and love as the electric guitar. A Variax has spent a lot of time analyzing and digitalizing the sounds of real vintage instruments in order to process their piezos so they sound like guitars with pickups with all these inconsistencies...they are an imitation of the real thing of course, but getting more and more convincing and certainly versatile.

A lot of the character of a a guitar "tone" is not in the ability to reproduce the higher order harmonics that lay behind a 440 A note for instance that an overwound pickup may fail to be able to reproduce. An EMG for instance with a low impedance coil and preamp can sound "sterile"...all the harmonics are there in fairly even response, but this is not "natural" to our ears, we like to hear inconsistencies and details (even if most of these are hidden behind gobs of distortion a lot of the time, but still this itself is a tone...EMG's excel at this tone as all the harmonics are brought to the party!!!)

Scatterwinding has two effects, it brings tone enhancing inconsistencies...different mixes of harmonics (they throw in the tonal spices in different quantities to create a unique flavour...not simply chuck the whole spice rack in the stew) and can enhance the number of spices that can be heard (higher order harmonics) by reducing some resistance. One should note though, that the higher the harmonics, the more discordant they can sound...again adding flavours that you may only want a little taste off.

This is where the art in handwound pickups comes in...and a lot of the mojo. If you don't know what you are doing, you could end up with a little too much paprika or something...not to everyones taste...and the whole point of scatterwinding is to some extent it is random...these are not measured does but pinches of this and pinches of that...one builders pinch may be another's punch! And these details are very subtle...all pickups are going to be able to more than adequately reproduce the fundamental notes...they all work! Hand wound pickups are not necessarily better, scatterwinding them is a random process (in most pickups) and is actually an unavoidable consequence of hand winding and small production pickup builders...it doesn't guarantee a great pickup. They are lucky that these effects are improved by their methods...imagine if it were the other way, would they be playing up their inability to wind hair fine wires in perfect layers over super accurate computer controlled robot winders...I don't think so!

Anyway...more than enough from me, thought I had better contribute to the discussion I thought this thread may have offered...and now has...nice one!

pete

[Mickguard]

This is where the art in handwound pickups comes in...and a lot of the mojo. If you don't know what you are doing, you could end up with a little too much paprika or something...not to everyones taste...and the whole point of scatterwinding is to some extent it is random...these are not measured does but pinches of this and pinches of that...one builders pinch may be another's punch! And these details are very subtle...all pickups are going to be able to more than adequately reproduce the fundamental notes...they all work! Hand wound pickups are not necessarily better, scatterwinding them is a random process (in most pickups) and is actually an unavoidable consequence of hand winding and small production pickup builders...it doesn't guarantee a great pickup. They are lucky that these effects are improved by their methods...imagine if it were the other way, would they be playing up their inability to wind hair fine wires in perfect layers over super accurate computer controlled robot winders...I don't think so!

Anyway...more than enough from me, thought I had better contribute to the discussion I thought this thread may have offered...and now has...nice one!

pete

Hmm...I look the cooking analogy (love to cook). So what I'm hearing is that... we should be considering winding our own pickups, since the pickups have the biggest impact on the sound of an electric guitar...hmm...gonna look into this one day...the kids better hide their lego...

[psw]

Coincidently someone rebirthed an old thread of yours today...pickup placement question...where you said this mick...

I'm a definite fan of P90s though. Like the way they look, love the way they sound. And P90 is cool to say too.

This is a very valuable quality and approach as I was alluding too in the above post

we covert pickup designs over seventy years old and are reluctant in all these years to consider even a different sized, shape "package"...

A P90 is quite a bit different in coil shape and magnet arrangement and it is reflected in the sound quality...a wide flat single coil design.

I am building a tele at the moment with a bridge HB that is a vintage "full range" humbucker...this is an interesting design, quite a bit wider than a conventional HB and flatter coils and massive asymetrical screw poles...looks very cool, yet to hear it on this guitar. The idea was to create a Hb with a fender flavour...same designer as the gibson PAF Seth Lover in 1967 after being scalped by fender/CBS.

I recently amazon-ed a cool book, "pickups: windings and magnets and the guitar became electric" by Mario Milan. Kind of a history of pickups and guitars, the famous and some really bizzare ones, very cheapo versions, from expensive to some real obscure ones. It is not a how to book!

With the fender, the poles are screw magnets so you can adjust the actual magnet heights above and below the pickups and are made of "cunife" which apparently is an alloy of copper nickel and iron. SO...major MOJO factor...hehehe

Anyway...I digress, your advantage is that you may not have to pander to the normal recipes of aged tradition for your own use...on the other hand, this is a risk as you may not know what it is you cook up in doing so!

You can even make pickups in completely different configurations...you can mount the coils on their side with respect to the strings for instance.

However, to begin with, the conventional bobbins and magnets are a good place to start as I have never been much good at the bobbin making side of things. This and not breaking the super fine wire is probably the hardest part. For a winder, you don't have to get super sophisticated...lego is cool, there are plenty of threads. My sustainer driver winder uses a counter made from a cheap calculator...a magnet on the bobbin triggers a reed switch as it passes which closes the "=" button. You type in 1+1 and it just keeps adding ones (also works backwards...type a number say 5000-1 and it will take off one each revolution). I once visited "Maton" as a teenager and saw their winder that had been in use since the 50's...mecanno!!!

The cooking analogy is good, but you have to cook a lot to refine what you create and be prepared for some culinary disasters...still, that's the fun of it I guess...as I say, just about anything will reproduce the actual notes being played...it's all in the subtle flavours...

pete

[SwedishLuthier]

The so called "over wound" pickup myth, is probably one that is false, there is no myth, but the myth is supposedly that overwound pickups do nothing more for the tone of the guitar.

What about this 'scatterwound' thing...what's that all about?

Overwinding and Scatterwinding is one of the terms that have been widely overused in marketing hypes (read BS). They do affect the sound of a pickup but they are not nearly close to being dominant factors. PSW nailed the “science” of scatterwound. Overwinding a pickup will alter the sound in that a higher DC resistance will cut out a bit of the treble, BUT will add mid. Isn’t that “doing things” for the tone? You bet. But then you can debate if it is for better or for worse…Thinner wire (higher AWG number) will have the same effect; higher Dc resistance and loss of treble.

But think for yourself and you will see a few much more important factors.

Trying to quantify them:

1 Type of pickup (construction ie HB, start, P90 etc)

2 Shape of coil

3 Shape of magnetic field

3 Turn count of coil

4 Thickness of wire

5 Strength of magnet(s)

OK, #1 is obvious, but hey, it had to be mentioned. But that also determine #2 and #3. So what we as pickup winders can manipulate in a practical way is

1 invent a completely new construction

2 use more or less wire

3 use thinner or heavier wire (same AWG number meaning thicker or thinner insulation)

4 use higher/lower AWG number wire

5 use stronger or weaker magnets.

6 ok, it had to be said; use a winding technique to lessen or increase the skin effect (scatterwinding)

The effect of scatterwinding will account for maybe a percent or three of the total sound. It comes last when listing factors to manipulate while winding. BUT it is the thing that set the “boutique hand winder” apart from the mass producer when it comes to the manufacturing process and of cause they will emphasis everything that is in their favor. Me I have such a small production that I custom mace every single pickup. That way I have a dialog with the buyer for every pickup and can manipulate the factors that REALLY counts (turn count, wire selection, magnet strength) and can stay away from marketing BS.

[psw]

That's a fantastic post and, the kind of conversation I had hoped and more from this topic. A+ to all.

The effect of scatterwinding will account for maybe a percent or three of the total sound. It comes last when listing factors to manipulate while winding. BUT it is the thing that set the “boutique hand winder” apart from the mass producer when it comes to the manufacturing process and of cause they will emphasis everything that is in their favor. Me I have such a small production that I custom mace every single pickup. That way I have a dialog with the buyer for every pickup and can manipulate the factors that REALLY counts (turn count, wire selection, magnet strength) and can stay away from marketing BS.

There is a lot of BS. I made up the cooking analogy off the top of my head, but there is some truth to it. In order to manipulate the sound in the way suggested above, it takes more than knowing the ingredients and recipe...that helps, but to make it special and to manipulate the finer points takes a chef!

And, it is right that things like scatterwinding are only a very small part of the "tone" and does not necessarily produce the tone one might desire...although, really it is impossible to hand wind pickups without a little scattering of the winds.

What really interests me is the potential for makers of pickups to take clues from designs and ideas and try a few different ideas...who knows what you might cook up, if you have a mind to. This is especially pertinent to people making custom guitars like many people here at project guitar and why someone like mickguard might come up with his own take on size, shape, magnet arrangement...or simply luck out with something interesting.

Of all the factors SL has mentioned, there is two vital ingredients to be considered.

1. A pickup should complement the tone and vibrational qualities of the guitar to which it is fitted...and

2. A pickup should complement the music and style of play that the musician demands.

I recently amazon-ed a cool book, "pickups: windings and magnets and the guitar became electric" by Mario Milan.

Inspired by this thread, I took a bit of time to read the above book. Anyone with an interest in this stuff could well do with this book. There are a lot of different designs and history, all the major players and photos of familiar and more obscure pickups. I was interested to read that the P-90 was built in a "cheaper" variety that had magnetic poles just like fender...hmmm. I didn't even realize that the fender HB I have (which apparently has considerable mojo value) had magnetic poles, quite different from what it looks like, a big HB. There were some pre filtertron pickups that contained six coils and the magnets could individually be adjusted up and down within a tube with 12 screws!!! There are values listed for a lot of these devices too (turns, resistance) and a good overview of all these kinds of issues and influence...very cool. It is not really a book about winding your own pickups...there is a couple of pages on that, but there are lots of resources even at PG (search for the lego winder, it was a beaut!) and for pickup winders, try this site from my home town...designed2wind. Getting the materials is a bit of a problem though, and the wire really does need to be bought in bulk...but it can be done.

I actually came to the site with some fancy pickup design ideas and with wire and all at hand but for years now abandoned these things for the sustainer project (really a type of pickup in reverse). There are so many boutique pickup makers about, there is not many niches left I suspect...most of these people go for conventional designs. I think that a lot could be made of preamplified low impedance designs...even tone shaping circuits...these things are commonplace with bass players and a battery would last a year at least with modern preamps. You can even get suitable preamps and by going this route, you could have a lot more options IMHO...but hey, guitar players are traditionalists and none of us are immune from the influence of mojo and even a little BS when it comes to investing a couple of hundred dollars for a subtly improved tone.

Anyway...nice stuff...pete

[SwedishLuthier]

And, it is right that things like scatterwinding are only a very small part of the "tone" and does not necessarily produce the tone one might desire...although, really it is impossible to hand wind pickups without a little scattering of the winds.

Yeah, you’re spot on. A hand wound (or actually hand guided wire) pickup will always be scatterwound. You can wary the amount of scatter thou.

Of all the factors SL has mentioned, there is two vital ingredients to be considered.

1. A pickup should complement the tone and vibrational qualities of the guitar to which it is fitted...and

2. A pickup should complement the music and style of play that the musician demands.

Yeah that’s what I tried to describe. That is possible for me as my production volume still is relative moderate.

I recently amazon-ed a cool book, "pickups: windings and magnets and the guitar became electric" by Mario Milan.

Inspired by this thread, I took a bit of time to read the above book. Anyone with an interest in this stuff could well do with this book. There are a lot of different designs and history, all the major players and photos of familiar and more obscure pickups.

It is indeed one of the best books available about pickups. Unfortunately the graphics are clearly made by the author himself in PowerPoint no less, and the photografs are in many cases crappy. But the information is really, really good and I have yet to find any really incorrect data in that book.

There are so many boutique pickup makers about, there is not many niches left I suspect...most of these people go for conventional designs.

Unfortunately most of them are very conservative, trying to perfect the ultimate PAF humbucker or replicating Abigail’s winding pattern from the late 50s. Abigail was/is a legendary pickup winder at Fender, now in the custom shop…god, she must be like 70 or older.

[Mickguard]

Coincidently someone rebirthed an old thread of yours today...pickup placement question...where you said this mick...

I'm a definite fan of P90s though. Like the way they look, love the way they sound. And P90 is cool to say too.

Just goes to show you...I've since come around to preferring the Start s/s/s arrangement over everything else. Why? Because so far it's what meets best my style of play.

But I'm willing to believe that sound comes as much from having springs directly underneath the pickups as well as the steel tone block as the pickups themselves.

And then there's the issue of scale length --I'm tempted to build a Gibson-scale neck with a strat-arranged body. Mostly because that's the fretboard I have on hand right now. The question is how much that will affect the sound -- maybe the lowered string tension will give me more of the sound I'm looking for? Hard to know until I try, I suppose.

Meanwhile, I asked about scatterwounds because I bought a scatterwound Rickenbacker pickup a while back. I found it to be very harsh on the highs though, so I took it out again. Maybe I'd like it better at the neck?

[guitar101]

What about this 'scatterwound' thing...what's that all about?

Probably baloney. Here is a link to the Bill Lawrence website where he explains some facets of pickup design.

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pickupology/Contents.htm

[j. pierce]

I have to wonder about the whole "skin effect" thing in relation to pickups.

At 100kHZ (which should be outside of our 20-20,000Hz range of hearing, and outside what most amps will reproduce) the skin depth is somewhere around .21 mm. #40 AWG is 0.0799mm in diameter. The 42 and 43 AWG wires generally used in pickups is smaller still. (Don't have the numbers off hand, the AWG chart in my workspace only goes to #40) So the skin depth is now larger than the wire, meaning it should have little to no effect in this instance.

The numbers I've seen from tech papers list the actual increased resistance from skin depth at 20Khz being something 3% - in 12AWG wire. Go down to 40-43 AWG wire and I don't think you'll see a noticable effect at all.

With a good signal generator, meter, and ohm's law, we ought to be able to figure out the resistance of a coil at various frequencies, which might tell us more. Or might not. I get confused when we start looking at the coil as both a conductor of the signal, and as part of the mechanism to generate this signal.

PSW brings up good and interesting points, I just don't think the skin effect is relevant in this case. I wonder about how applicable the proximity effect is, (I mean, it ought apply, but I'm curious how much of difference it makes in the frequency ranges we're concerned about.) but I'm not awake enough to do the maths...

Interesting thread.

[RestorationAD]

And then there's the issue of scale length --I'm tempted to build a Gibson-scale neck with a strat-arranged body. Mostly because that's the fretboard I have on hand right now. The question is how much that will affect the sound -- maybe the lowered string tension will give me more of the sound I'm looking for? Hard to know until I try, I suppose.

I am not trying to highjack the thread just wanted to point something that I feel....

<highjack>

So scale length has great effect on sound. Maybe more than most would know. The length of scale controls string tension. A 24.75 scale will seem slinkier with the same gauge strings and have more midrange. A 25.5 scale will have a tighter feel to the strings and the deep bass and clarity of a strat. I have played short scale strats and they usually lack the clarity of a 25.5. IF you detune a nice 26.7 or 27"+ scale is better for dynamic lows.

</highjack>

Edited March 14, 2008 by RestorationAD

[SwedishLuthier]

I get confused when we start looking at the coil as both a conductor of the signal, and as part of the mechanism to generate this signal.

He he I know what you’re saying. And there’s more to it. A coil together with variable resistors (pots) means a variable filter… major headache warning! Nowadays I tend to focus on factors I can manipulate and don’t care too much to understand the physics behind it.

[psw]

I get confused when we start looking at the coil as both a conductor of the signal, and as part of the mechanism to generate this signal.

He he I know what you’re saying. And there’s more to it. A coil together with variable resistors (pots) means a variable filter… major headache warning! Nowadays I tend to focus on factors I can manipulate and don’t care too much to understand the physics behind it.

Yes, well...I guess I am a little skeptical about how much "control" there is with so many factors involved. Things like skin, eddy and proximity effects are linked and can't be separated. Even though you may measure one aspect, there are so many others...we haven't even mentioned magnet types and strength, let along their arrangement and the shape of the magnetic field. Eddy currents exist in the core (the metal within the core and in surrounding metals near the pickup. There are a lot of physics to juggle there too and a degree of unpredictability to the whole thing.

Measuring one aspect can in no way fully explain things...just as two cooks making the same recipe will have different results, hence we define chefs and master chefs. Now we have the mojo of celebrity chefs for marketing purposes (frailin, duncan, fender's Abagail), and perhaps there is a little truth to it...but just a little!

Some of these effects have become more evident through the sustainer project; in reversing the pickup principle, small aspects to pickup design become much bigger when, instead of sensing small induced currents (created by the vibration of the strings) you are sending large amplified currents through a coil in order to make the strings vibrate. It is as if all of these qualities are amplified in the process, some of them becoming critical.

The designs I work with in this project seek to combine conventional passive pickups with the driver coil and in so doing introduce a set of transformer effects as well.

One early working version, perhaps my first prototype (still going after quite a few years) was this one...

This is not a post on the sustainer though, but in the process of converting a single coil pickup (a very cheap pickup from a "legend" guitar) I needed to add another coil (not connected to the pickup below) and so the pickups coil was lowered some 3mm effectively. I also wanted a blade design so that drive would be consistent even with string bending and I need to extend the poles in order to wind the upper coil...

In order to do this I removed the original non-magnetic poles and replaced them with a solid piece of ordinary steel 3mm thick and 10mm wide to the right length...

The result of this modification, chiefly the massive increase in the core (the ceramic magnet below was the same) was a really nice improvement in the sound quality of this pickup. Formerly, a typical cheap pickup still had similar tone qualities, but this modification added more depth to the sound, at least to my ears and a definite improvement. I could compare this mod with an identical non-modified pickup in the mid position to confirm the sonic changes.

One of the things that interests me from a DIY perspective is that many people have an interest in pickup making, yet almost everything asked is about pickup winding. As discussed here, this does have a big effect on things...the number of turns, the way these turns overlap, etc. Little is made of other aspects that may in fact have a bigger impact on a pickups sound and performance. Magnet arrangement (consider the P-90's dual lower magnets below the poles with like poles facing each other) or coil depth (again a p-90's flat wide coil as opposed to a strats thin deep coil).

If the mass of the coil can make such a difference in this "experiment" (a completely unintentional side effect of a different project) then instead of spending a lot of time and money making winders and learning this art, seeking nirvana in this single aspect of a pickups construction...perhaps more interesting profit can be made in altering the design. In most cases it will cost more to make a pickup from parts and wire than it would to modify an existing pickup and altering other design aspects as in the above example.

For instance, you can easily experiment with such things by taking a cheap single coil as I did and increasing the mass of it by screwing (carefully) machine bolts between the poles from below...you could almost double the mass...perhaps even make it adjustable (number of screws, how far in they are within the coil, how far below the pickup do they extend (changing the magnetic field) this working with magnetic poles for instance. On many "cheap" pickups (don't try this with a real fender which wraps around the actual magnets) the poles or magnets can be removed, in the above instance, the bobbin was actually slotted as it happened which would allow replacement, perhaps extend them below the pickup and replace the single magnet with arrangements of magnets of different types, or in a p-90 like configuration.

Now I am not suggesting that doing such thing will make a "better" pickup, but it will change it. If the investment is low (perhaps a cheap/free discarded pickup), what have you got to loose and many such mods are reversible so if one strategy fails, you can mess with another. I would suggest that doing such things to the design of a pickup will most likely have more of an impact (good or bad!) than concentrating solely on the winding side of things.

So...that is my little rant, appeal or suggestion to people interested in or contemplating pickup making. I think I was still on topic...the myth of windings, overwound or not, being a crucial or major determiner to a good pickup. There is no reason in my mind that a good pickup couldn't be produced with machine made coils from korea as opposed to machine made coils in the USA by duncan or dimarzio, and that even if their coils are superior in mojo to what you are messing with, you may just stummble across a "design" change that yields a really interesting and unique flavour...which is kind of the point in making one's own pickups I would guess.

Anyway...nice to see the thread has had so much interest and great contributions...better watch out...the sustainer thread is 250 pages long now, it is a discussion that may never end!

pete

[OrenG]

My overall style is somewhere between metal and a classic rock sound. So an overwound pickup wound be perfect. Right?

-Thanks,

OrenG

[psw]

Sorry OrenG, I guess the thread got hijacked over the thread title...

If you are looking for pickup suggestions, it really is a lot to do with your tastes and the amp and effects you are using. If you are using a digital modeler for instance, you can dial in just about any kind of sound. Some metal players really love the emg sound because they love effects and distortion and can easily overdrive an amp...but definitely not a "fender sound".

Look to the people who play strats that you like the sound of. Or if you prefer a slash like HB sound and don't want a Les Paul, then perhaps consider rail or mini HB's. Seymour duncans JB humbucker is a nice sound, especially for that classic rock thing if you want a more full bodied HB sound.

I still like my fender "noiseless" jeff beck pickups. These are humcanceling but have the single coil sound and is wound hot...plenty of harmonic content. But I am a JB fan and like his hot fender sound...see how the mojo sells pickups. Bill lawrence piockups get a good wrap...make sure you get the real ones from bill and becky . Perhaps you prefer the SRV sound, in which case the tex mex may be more the go.

If you want that single coil sound, you can pay a bit...but dare I say, you could get some custom made by someone like SL I guess...but hand wound pickups can be expensive...but then can the name brands these days. Sometimes a good analogue distortion or preamp will give your guitar that extra boost. You may even what to look into the preamps around these days...check out guitar fetish, some interesting stuff, cheaper than a new pickup!

hope that helps...

pete

[SwedishLuthier]

I really have to agree with Pete. One of the most interesting threads in this section for a while IMO.

If the mass of the coil can make such a difference in this "experiment" (a completely unintentional side effect of a different project) then instead of spending a lot of time and money making winders and learning this art, seeking nirvana in this single aspect of a pickups construction...perhaps more interesting profit can be made in altering the design. In most cases it will cost more to make a pickup from parts and wire than it would to modify an existing pickup and altering other design aspects as in the above example.

When you refer to “mass of coil” I think that you are really meaning that you are adding much steel to this pickup. When adding steel to a pickup you increase the inductance. That itself influence how the pickup will sound.

You are right on spot when you say that too little attention is pent on the magnetic field and the overall structure (adding steel/increasing inductance). My favourite mod to a cheepo strat style pickup with push out-able magnets is to substitute the magnets with pole screws and add magnets under the coil ala a P90. Use real A5 mags if they fit or go for ceramic once if the routs are tight (ceramics will not boost the inductance). This simple mod will quickly move the sound into P90 territory. It will not mace it sound LIKE a P90, but P90ish.

There are so many other ways to manipulate the output/sound apart from stronger magnet/more wire. I got the idea to use slug pole pieces only, A5 magnets, AWG42 and roughly 8000 turns for a metal pickup. The slug pole pieces increase the magnetic field as they conduct the flux better compared to the screw. It also directs the field up towards the strings better. All this increase the flux with a standard A5 magnet. This means higher output and an increased treble. The pole pieces add steel to the construction, upping the inductance, boosting bass. The added windings boosts the output altogether and emphasis the mid. Still have to test the pickups though. The guitar they are going into are not finished yet…

Now I am not suggesting that doing such thing will make a "better" pickup, but it will change it.

I love that part. The world is so full of people that know what is right and what is wrong. If it works it works. Doesn’t matter if it is made in an unconventional way.

My overall style is somewhere between metal and a classic rock sound. So an overwound pickup wound be perfect. Right?

Not necessary. An overwound pickup with standard magnets ALNICO5 and standard wire AWG42 will mean a boost in output and midrange and a drop off in treble. Most commercially available overwound pickups are done with ceramic magnets and AWG43 (thinner wire) so that they can add even more turns on the coil. This will add even more mid and output but cut the treble even more, moving the pickup into the “distortion range”. But when I think modern metal I think scooped out mid. That’s the opposite of a classic DiMarzio Super Distortion. BTW I did a repair on a early 70s original Super Distortion wile ago. Man that was a moment to remember, had to rewind one of the coils, man what a sound, think Al DiMeola. Derailing, derailing… A high output pickup is nice if you are using a low gain amp and no pedals. But if you are using booster/overdrive/distortion pedals you do no NEED an overwound pickup. Go for an overwound one if you like the SOUND. If you hate the clean sound with it have a look at something more traditional.