Which Caps?

[Trixie Cant Act]

I have seen these two values very often on guitars

.022uF or .047uF

Which should be used for what application? Sound difference? for different value pots? different value pickups?

Also what would the difference be between the disc shaped capacitor or the can shaped ones if any.

Any enlightening would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance

joe

Edited April 13, 2008 by Trixie Cant Act

[scab]

You will see those values of capacitors (mostly) on the back of tone pots. These are basically what make a tone pot work. They take a certian amount of the higher frequencies and separate them from the normal signal. Then when you turn your tone knob down, it turns these frequencies off. On tone pots, .01-.1µf can be used.

As for sound difference, (i believe) the higher the value on the cap, the more high frequencies it will seperate. Differences between type of cap is the quality. In a guitar you'll be fine with the round ceramic disc ones.

I usually use .047µf caps, but have never tried the .022µf. The differences between the two, The .022µf caps bleed off less high frequencies then the .047µf.

Edited April 13, 2008 by scab

[WezV]

i usually like 0.033, obviously it sits nicely between the two

i use 0.047 in brighter sounding guitars to tame them a little more

[Blackdog]

I have seen these two values very often on guitars

.022uF or .047uF

Which should be used for what application? Sound difference? for different value pots? different value pickups?

Also what would the difference be between the disc shaped capacitor or the can shaped ones if any.

Any enlightening would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance

joe

The short answer:

You'll likely find .047u in single coil guitars (usually with 250K pots), and .022uf with humbuckers (usually with 500K pots).

Technically speaking, the higher the value of the cap the more high frequency cut you'll get when the tone pot goes to 0.

The long answer:

With passive pickups (high impedance), every component you add plays a significant role. It's called loading. It works like this:

If you run the pickups directly to the amp (without vol or tone controls) you get the full range of frequencies the PU is capable of.

As soon as you add a volume control you're adding a load to the pickups. This cuts some of the high end already. The lower the value, the higher the loading and high end cut. Humbuckers are intrinsically darker (and have about twice the impedance) than single coils, so 500K pots are used to achieve a minimize the loading. On the other hand, even though 250K pots are the norm for single coils, if you want an extra bright Tele you would use a 500K or even 1M volume pot.

Enter the tone control:

Adding a treble-cut tone cotrol (as the basic tone control used in guitars is called) will always cut some highs. Even with the pot at 10. The amount of cut will be less with a higher value tone pot and a lower value cap. Hence, for humbuckers the preferred combo is 500K/.022u and for single coils is 250K/.047u. This works exactly like the loading, only that the load is now frequency dependent. The capacitor in this configuration loads more as the frequencies go higher.

That been said I prefer .015u for neck tone and .022u for bridge tone if I have a 2-vol, 2-tone arrangement with humbuckers.

With respect to the type of capacitors, that's a whole new can of worms in its own right. There are some quality issues, but different cap technologies will indeed produce differences in the sound (subtle, but real) for a different reason.

There are three different ideal passive electronics components: The capacitor, the inductor and the resistor.

Real life components of any kind (like commercial capacitors) are always a combination of all three ideal components. What makes a capacitor a capacitor is that the dominant characteristic of the component is the capacitive one. The other two characteristics are parasitical, and mostly negligible.

The tubular/canned type of capacitor you mention have a higher parasitic inductance than the disc (ceramic) ones. This produces a different sound when interacting with all the other components in the circuit. People have described the sound as sweeter. In any case YMMV. Better try by yourself and decide.

Hope this helps.

(Edited for clarity, hopefully....)

[Trixie Cant Act]

So more of an opinion question now... you think the sound difference would be enough if both value caps were used and a switch to choose one or the other used? Kinda like splitting coils on Humbucker. You know Im going to try it to see...

In my own style of playing i hardly ever, if ever turn the tone controls off 10. Maybe its the caps that are installed that makes me feel the sound just gets way way too muddy on almost every guitar I have ever played. I do have plenty guitars to play with so I'll be heating up that soldering iron.

Thanks for all the info, it has explained alot to me and exaclty what I was wanting to know

[Blackdog]

So more of an opinion question now... you think the sound difference would be enough if both value caps were used and a switch to choose one or the other used? Kinda like splitting coils on Humbucker. You know Im going to try it to see...

In my own style of playing i hardly ever, if ever turn the tone controls off 10. Maybe its the caps that are installed that makes me feel the sound just gets way way too muddy on almost every guitar I have ever played. I do have plenty guitars to play with so I'll be heating up that soldering iron.

Thanks for all the info, it has explained alot to me and exaclty what I was wanting to know

You're wellcome, I'm glad it helped.

If you're talking about switching between .022u and .047u, then yes, you should be able to hear the difference.

Now if you generally find guitars muddy sounding and never move the tone off 10, then maybe you're best option would be switching (maybe with a push-pull switch on the pot itself) the tone control in and out of the circuit. Removing the tone control will have a noticeable effect in the top end, crispness, or whatever you wish to call it. Give it a try and see if you like it.

[AndrewCE]

If you're talking about switching between .022u and .047u, then yes, you should be able to hear the difference.

Now if you generally find guitars muddy sounding and never move the tone off 10, then maybe you're best option would be switching (maybe with a push-pull switch on the pot itself) the tone control in and out of the circuit. Removing the tone control will have a noticeable effect in the top end, crispness, or whatever you wish to call it. Give it a try and see if you like it.

theres a difference b/t those 2 caps, but is there a difference b/t a [.047u in series with a resistor] and a [.022u]? would they both act the same if the resistor value was just right?

[ToddW]

So more of an opinion question now... you think the sound difference would be enough if both value caps were used and a switch to choose one or the other used? Kinda like splitting coils on Humbucker. You know Im going to try it to see...

Not arguing with blackdog that you'll hear the difference, but if you want to put in the effort of having a push/pull pot wired in, I'd use if for something more than a subtle difference in the tone control. Going from .022 to .047uf is just changing the cut off frequency of your tone control.

Think of the cap as a drain to ground. The bigger the cap, the easier it is for lower frequencies to pass through it to ground. So 5000 hz passes to ground easier than 50 hertz. Meaning you'll cut more high notes than low notes. Make the cap bigger twice as big, and you cut more of each frequency, probably twice as much 5000 . . . but that's wide open. Add in a resistor with the .047, some of that pot you have wired in series with the cap, and you shrink the drain again.

If you go to the effort of wiring in a switch, I'd do something more creative, like make one choice a .033, and the other choice a .047 and a 1 henry inductor to make a notch filter. With the cap, your graph of how much of a given frequency you cut is a sloped line that says you cut more sound the higher the frequency. With an inductor going to ground, the slope is the opposite, you let more of the low frequencies down the drain. Put both in line, and you essentially overlap the graphs. Now you cut the most at the notch

With .047 and 1h, it's around 730hz. bigger inductor, or bigger capacitor, and the frequency of the notch, the place the filter cuts out the most volume, goes down. A series parallel switch or a coil tap would also be a bigger change.

Long post, sorry, but if you're putting in the effort of modding the tone control, I figured you should know there are lots of easy mods that will have a bigger sonic effect.

Best,

Todd

[Southpa]

You'll likely find .047u in single coil guitars (usually with 250K pots), and .022uf with humbuckers (usually with 500K pots).

Lets make sure we aren't getting things backwards here.

[Paul Marossy]

I also like using 0.033uF

[psw]

Way too much is placed on the tone caps...there does seem to be some misunderstanding as to their purpose. The reason people have their tones on 10 most of the time is to get as less effect as possible...I know I do.

If thinking of adding a switch, a lead or override switch can be really useful. Rig a switch to over ride the selector and the volume and tone controls and route the pickup direct to the output jack...this avoids any dampening effects from the pots and the tone control. This can be useful as an instant switch to full on and say the bridge pickup and back to the rhythm sound as per the selector and volume and tone controls...and provides for a strong signal with no dampening and more treble.

Much better tone manipulations can be done with coil splitting and such but interesting effects can be had by combining one pickup with another with it's tone turned right down...so having the tone control only hooked up to one pickup like the neck is an interesting effect.

[Bygde]

If thinking of adding a switch, a lead or override switch can be really useful. Rig a switch to over ride the selector and the volume and tone controls and route the pickup direct to the output jack...this avoids any dampening effects from the pots and the tone control. This can be useful as an instant switch to full on and say the bridge pickup and back to the rhythm sound as per the selector and volume and tone controls...and provides for a strong signal with no dampening and more treble.

There's a vid by Guitar World where they show EXACTLY what you're talking about

And I think that's a great idea too. Gotta try that on a guitar some day.

[dugg]

I've never tried one, but there are 'no load' pots that effectively switch themselves out of the circuit when turned to '10'. Also, you could use a 2P3T on/off/on mini toggle with the two values of caps to get a third combined value when both are in parallel. Just some thoughts.