The Pros And Cons Of Using Epoxy Resin

[ArieBombarie]

Hi there,

I've just started building my own Les Paul Inspired guitar. I'm at the point where I need to glue two pieces of mahogany together to form the body. Í'm thinking about using an Epoxy Resin voor glueing the pieces togehter. I've searched the forum and there seam to be some different view-ponts on using Epoxy Resin.

My question is: what's your experience with using an epoxy resin as an adhesive instead of regular wood-glue?

I would really appreciate if someone could point out the pros and cons on this one....

Grz Arjan

[doug]

One thing to keep in mind is that only high quality epoxies will harden. You're typical 'garden variety' found at home stores will remain somewhat soft.

Since wood glues create a bond stronger than the wood itself, I am simply curious about why epoxy might used instead. Is there an advantage?

-Doug

[jmrentis]

I'm sure there will be plenty of responses for this question. For gluing up a two piece body I would go with some titebond orginal (wood glue) over epoxy. I should add that I actually don't mind using epoxy, I use West Systems epoxy when I have the need, I think its a good epoxy choice, though I know there are some more common ones for luthier use. I used epoxy for gluing up the fretboard to the neck to avoid any introduction of water through use of wood glue. Thats really one of the few places where I would even worry about that, and even there its only a minor benefit, for gluing up a two piece body I would prefer to use straight wood glue. Easier to use, easier to clean up, will create an extremely strong bond (generally stronger than the wood itself), and its cheaper. Just make sure you get a good fit between the two body pieces and have a fresh surface when you glue up, meaning have a freshly scraped or sanded surface when you glue up. Best of luck. J

PS- Good point about the garden variety epoxy's, I've actually heard this elsewhere as well. West systems, z-poxy, and systems 3 are the few that I've heard work well for luthier use, and as I said I've used West systems and think highly of it. I tried a hardware store epoxy once and it stayed quite soft and much less clear than the West systems, with any epoxy the ratio had got to be dang near perfect if you want it to harden/act properly. I love the pump system that I bought for the west systems epoxy, makes it a no brainer and easy to use. Anyway, even in comparing the high quality epoxy's, wood glue still seems the best choice by quite a bit for gluing a body blank.

Edited May 7, 2008 by jmrentis

[low end fuzz]

just based on experience of myself and friends;

epoxy is great for everything (west system i refer)

on the fingerboard it will seperate easier with heat (havent tried it myself)

grain fill sealer;

it seems like wood glue is the obvious answer for sticking two pieces of wood together, but i think alot of the people that use it for everytihng probably have something like the west system where you are suck with a shot glass of this stuff when a quarter of that will cover an entire guitar, and its expensive, so cut the losses with something that works excelent.

and unlike glue, i woud not want to jump the gun on getting it out of the clamps, which could be dangerous in a small area with neck blanks and 30 clamps all over the floor!

[j. pierce]

My issue with epoxy is that it's seemingly impossible to get an invisible join. Something like a fretboard, where you're often gluing two materials that are entirely different colours together, it's not so much an issue, as it's going to be a noticeable join. Same thing with joints that will later be hidden by binding, a solid finish, or another piece of wood. But if you're dealing with bookmatched wood for a top, or even just two pieces of the same log for a body core, the difference in visibility of glue lines with epoxy joins just kills it for me. Although perhaps I'm just doing something wrong. But I never have that problem with wood glues, so I stick with what works for me.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Epoxy has great cohesion, meaning that it sticks well to itself and will create a very strong hold in a gap. Titebond has great adhesion meaning that if you have a perfect joint (ie no gaps, which should be every joint on your guitar) titebond will create a bond much much stronger than epoxy ever could on wood.

The only time you should ever use epoxy is to glue something that has a gap in it.

There is a reason everyone uses wood glue for wood, it works the best.

and @ jmrentis, a well planed surface > scraped which is > sanded for gluing.

[erikbojerik]

There are differences between epoxies designed for adhesive purposes, and epoxies designed for grain filling. The only reason to really use epoxy adhesive is because it is a much better gap filler than wood glue, but of course you may end up seeing the joint very easily as JP said. The best bet is to make flat & true joint surfaces and use wood glue.

As Doug said, hardware store epoxies are NOT recommended for this.

[Bryan316]

I'm worried that epoxy resins don't have the penetration of wood glue. A good wood glue will creep and soak into the surrounding fibers of wood, whereas epoxy gives a surface bond.

If I were gluing two pieces of glass together, or metal, or other non-porous, non-absorbing materials, I'd be all over the epoxy.

If I were gluing fibrous materials like wood, I'd definitely stay with wood glue.

[Bmth Builder]

^ why would epoxy not soak into the wood like a wood glue would (damn dont say that fast)

[soapbarstrat]

Keep in mind that he's in Europe, so not exactly titebond O'plenty going on.

[ElRay]

But don't PVA glues have creep? Wouldn't a plastic-resin glue be better for a laminated neck? I've never seen a bent-lamination for furniture glued-up with PVA glue exactly for that reason. You do have the down-side of a thin brown line, but that's only a real issue if you're only using light-colored woods in the neck.

To be a total glue-geek, I'd say use PVA glues for the body (wings, top-caps, etc.), plastic-resin for neck laminations and hot-hide glue for veneers and attaching fingerboards to the neck. The hot-hide glue is messy, but it is really nice for veneers, plus it's fairly easily reversible, if the fingerboard needs to be replaced.

The one area I'm not too sure about would be the neck-pocket for a set-neck. I can see the advantages of PVA, but plastic resin is "stiffer", so you might get more of a bolt-on "snap" that many bolt-on fans love.

Ray

Edited May 7, 2008 by ElRay

[ArieBombarie]

Well, that's pretty clear... i'll be sticking with wood-glue for now... thanx for the advise on this!!

Grz Arjan

[Prostheta]

Keep in mind that he's in Europe, so not exactly titebond O'plenty going on.

Untrue - plenty of Titebond "going on" over here

[Mattia]

Have to disagree with Daniel; just because epoxy has cohesive strength doesn't mean the adhesive strength is any poorer than titebond. Thousands, if not millions of wooden boats laminated with nothing but epoxy can attest to its strength and durability (and yes, I'm talking about the good stuff). It creates strong bonds, doesn't creep much if at all (titebond is a PVA, does creep, but not a lot, and that's a non-issue for a lot of joints), and doesn't introduce moisutre. Some top builders use Epoxy to laminate necks for this reason and many more use it to glue fingerboards on.

That being said, I don't see an advantage over titebond for laminating bodies, unless you want to build a guitar that will not fall apart if ever subjected to flooding or similar. If I was gluing up multi-lams with difficult to glue exotics, I might consider epoxy. As it stands, I'm very seriously considering switching to epoxy for neck lamination, because of the lack of added moisture.

[ArieBombarie]

Well I can't remember ever seeing Titebond in my local DYI store here in the Neterlands... but I'm sure I can get my hands on it somewhere...

Anyways, I tried to sum up al your remarks and put it on my website, hopefully it will be usefull for someone who has the same question.

So thanx again..

Grz Arjan

[Mattia]

Well I can't remember ever seeing Titebond in my local DYI store here in the Neterlands... but I'm sure I can get my hands on it somewhere...

Anyways, I tried to sum up al your remarks and put it on my website, hopefully it will be usefull for someone who has the same question.

So thanx again..

Grz Arjan

Arjan, check out Baptist.nl for great tools and - yes - titebond.

Also, if you haven't found it yet, check out the Zelfbouw section of the gitaarnet.nl forums. Nice little builder's community, and there's a meet coming up in just a few weeks (June 1).

Mattia

[Prostheta]

I buy it from axminster.co.uk although I am sure there will be a dealer in the Netherlands Arjan!

<edit: oh, Mattia knows of somewhere...silly me...>

Edited May 9, 2008 by Prostheta

[Mattia]

I buy it from axminster.co.uk although I am sure there will be a dealer in the Netherlands Arjan!

<edit: oh, Mattia knows of somewhere...silly me...>

Axminster are being pains in the butt and will not ship any liquids or waxes internationally any more. The downside to Baptist is that they're occasionally out of stock. The upside is that they're out of stock because they refuse to order titebond at times of the year that it might drop below zero during shipping (ie, winter), because they know it'll damage the glue. They're a cool place, lots of really nice tools, and in the same city as one of the nicest wood yards in the Netherlands to boot.