Prs Body

[avengers63]

body blank 2

body blank 3

I had glued up a blank base made of a 3-3/4" mahogany core with sapele wings. The board next to it is supposedly Caribbean rosewood. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure what species it is, but it sure looks nice. everything has been moistened with mineral spirits to show the grain. Once the top is glued on, the whole thing will be 1-3/4" thick. Eventually, it's destined for eBay. I gotta fund the builds somehow....

I managed to get the base rough cut tonight.

You might notice a slight gap in the join of the left wing. It doesn't go all the way through, and the top will cover it up and brace it, so there are no worries. You'll notice as well that I left a piece there for a bolt-on pocket. I figure I can give the eventual buyer either a bolt-on option or cut it off for a set-neck - whichever they want.

[avengers63]

But I want y'all to give me some suggestions. Pictured below are the pieces to be used for the top. I'm wanting some suggestions of how best to place them - which you think would look best. At this point, I have no opinion at all. I'm asking because, as I said above, I intend to sell it. I'm interested in what the general public would think looks best.

[Rick500]

L1/R1 gets my vote.

[wohzah]

not to be starting trouble but I will go with L2/R2, btw great looking wood

[Supernova9]

If you really want people to buy it, which I doubt you'll get much on eBay, but hey, don't use some random top that you don't know what the wood is, get some flamed or quilted maple, like most people are actually looking for from a PRS.

Sell it to a friend if you can find someone who wants to buy it.

[guitar2005]

... which I doubt you'll get much on eBay ...

+1

eBay has so much crap bodies going for real cheap that its hard to sell anything in terms of bodies and make enough coin to cover the trouble of it all.

You'd be better off selling locally.

[avengers63]

From what I've seen, the bodies that don't sell for a worthwhile price on eBay are strats and anything made from standard woods (poplar, ash, maple, etc). The more exotic the wood, the less common the body, the better it sells. In my mind, that makes a carved rosewood top PRS a decent choice. Doing a search 2 minutes ago for PRS, there were no results with a body.

Example While this one has an ash body, the bloodwood top is what's making the difference. I figure there is about $25-$30 of wood there, which is selling for >$150. This seller has ash bodies constantly for $70 that don't move.

I can't argue with the quilted/flamed maple top statements - they seem to do well, but not cost effective. With the price of well-figured maple, the going price has you about breaking even. FWIW: I think I have the species narrowed down, and it IS a rosewood. I think it's from Honduras.

I'll have about $25 invested in this body. If it sells for $65-$80, I'll be happy; that'll basically double my money after the fees are deducted. I'm not trying to make a living off of this. I just want to try and generate a little income to slowly fund my builds. This'll also give me some practice at the techniques.

[Supernova9]

From what I've seen, the bodies that don't sell for a worthwhile price on eBay are strats and anything made from standard woods (poplar, ash, maple, etc). The more exotic the wood, the less common the body, the better it sells. In my mind, that makes a carved rosewood top PRS a decent choice. Doing a search 2 minutes ago for PRS, there were no results with a body.

Example While this one has an ash body, the bloodwood top is what's making the difference. I figure there is about $25-$30 of wood there, which is selling for >$150. This seller has ash bodies constantly for $70 that don't move.

I can't argue with the quilted/flamed maple top statements - they seem to do well, but not cost effective. With the price of well-figured maple, the going price has you about breaking even. FWIW: I think I have the species narrowed down, and it IS a rosewood. I think it's from Honduras.

I'll have about $25 invested in this body. If it sells for $65-$80, I'll be happy; that'll basically double my money after the fees are deducted. I'm not trying to make a living off of this. I just want to try and generate a little income to slowly fund my builds. This'll also give me some practice at the techniques.

Please don't take this too personally, because you're just one particular case of this happening more and more on this forum. But why should you sell people your practise bodies? If it's not good enough for you to keep, why is it good enough to sell?

I seem to notice a lot of people on the board who come here with little building experience (correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick search of your threads shows only the rebuild thread for that small body guitar as any kind of recent construction work) trying to make some cash. It might just be my outlook on things like this, but if you can't make $65-80 without selling a guitar body, how have you got all the tools to make a build to a quality that someone paying for it could expect? Is your effort to make a guitar body only worth $40 or so? It seems like you're selling on ebay because it's an easy way of doing business, a few photos from whatever angle you try and the person's stuck with they buy from you.

That bloodwood tele body looks classy. At present yours just looks like something built from scraps - the sapele and mahogany are neither close enough in colour or contrasting enough for it to look good, and the grain on the rosewood isn't good at all and the figure's nowhere near consistent.

[avengers63]

No, Supernova, I ain't mad at ya. I'd be a fool to ask for input and expect only positive comments. You're dead on in a few areas, but way off in many others. It seems that you've clumped me in with other people you've encountered, given me similat charactistics, and are responding to me the way you )presumably) do to them. To that end, you've either mis-heard what I've said or put words into my mouth that weren't there.

Please rememner: I'm NOT mad at you, nor am I starting a flame war. This is just discussion. I come off badly someties, so i don't want there to be any unintentional hard feelings. Cool?

But why should you sell people your practice bodies? If it's not good enough for you to keep, why is it good enough to sell?

I suppose you could interprit my statement as making practice bodies. That wasn't what I was meaning, but I can see it. MY first body has a number of mistakes which are learned by doing, but it's plenty good enough for me. I wouldn't have any ethical issue selling it because it's the very best I'm capable of doing. Likewise, any subsequent bodies I make will be the very best I'm capable of doing... at that time. Like anyone else, I'll only get better with experience.

So, is it good enough to keep? Sure it is. I just don't want to.

correct me if I'm wrong, but a quick search of your threads shows only the rebuild thread for that small body guitar as any kind of recent construction work

You're almost there. It's the only luthier work. I'm engaged in other woodworking projects as well. You are 100% correct, though, in that the redesign is my first body from raw wood. Your wording seems dismissive. I hope that wan't the case, but that's the way it came across.

...if you can't make $65-80 without selling a guitar body...

I never said I don't have the money on-hand. I said I'm wanting to use the sale of bodies to fund my hobby. I don't want to divert any more fund from the house into my personal enjoyment. It's not fair to my family. Household income needs to go to the house, not just one person. Diverting significant ammounts of the household income into my exclusive, personal use is just greedy and selfish. So... I want to be self-sustaining.

...how have you got all the tools to make a build to a quality that someone paying for it could expect?

I recently got out of another hobby: tabletop wargaming. Warhammer40K, to be specific. I had/have a HUGE ammount of stuff, with a lot still left. I've been selling it off on eBay to generate the funds needed to buy my bandsaw, table saw, drill press, router & table w/ bits, belt sander, planar, 18v cordless drill, angle grinder, shop-vac, and dovetail jig. All that's left is a small jointer and a biscuit joiner, which I'm working on right now.

Is your effort to make a guitar body only worth $40 or so?

Nope. Even at this early stage, I fully feel that the PRS body will be worth well over $100. I most likely won't get it, though, because I have no reputation yet. My long-term goal is to have bodies as slick as that tele. (BTW: It went for $170) Obviously, I'm not there yet. Sooner or later I will be, but I have to go through the learning steps to get there.

Note also that you contradicted yourself in back-to-back sentences. You first quote my figure of $65-$80, then claim I'm shooting for $40. If you were looking at my proposed profit, then I apologize for the mis-interpritation.

It seems like you're selling on ebay because it's an easy way of doing business...

I've been buying & selling on eBay for eight years, including a storefront when I had an on-line lingerie store. Making a real ammount of money on eBay is NOT as easy as some people think. I know as well as anyone that you'll NEVER get what an item is worth there because, as eBay buyers, we're cheap. If we wanted to pay full price, we'd go somewhere else. You ARE right in that it's much easier to sell one or two items there than locally.

The local guitar scene is dominated by two stores: a Guirat Center and a very large, well known, established local store. Neither are available for me to sell a body by consignment. What IS available is a small shop across from my subdivision that focuses on grade-school band instrument rental & instruction, but has some guitars as well. I've talked with him and he's willing to take a completed guitar from me on consignmnet. So, I DO have other options, but they require a bigger investment than I'm willing to make right now. Another reason to sell some bodies first.

btw great looking wood

...the grain on the rosewood isn't good at all and the figure's nowhere near consistent.

You're entitled to your opinion. Others, like myself, disagree. I remember seeing a post here saying they liked when the grains didn't match up 100%.

Take a look at the 50's Les Pauls, Strats, and Teles. None of their grains matched up. Even some of the early flamed-top LPs weren't bookmatched. Now look at current the "standard" LP, Strat, & Tele models. They're not matched up either. Just sayin, that's all.

In any event, I do appreciate your comments and concerns. Thanks for caring enough about me, a virtual stranger, to give your warnings and opinions when they differ with mine. Honestly, that means more than a generic "looks great" comment.

Edited June 27, 2008 by avengers63

[anderekel]

I don't know if this is an option or not, but I think that L1 and L2 should go together, the flamier side of each could go together.

[avengers63]

I don't know if this is an option or not, but I think that L1 and L2 should go together, the flamier side of each could go together.

If only! No, the two pics are both sides of the boards. I have been seriously considering L2 with R1, but turn R1 over so the grain lines on both sides run in the same direction. With this setup, the flamey bits would be in the middle where it'll be more flat, and the grain lines will be where the carves are and more able to show off more grain.

Also: I have some binding on the way. I'm considering cream, but I'm not sure I want to try it at all just yet. Then again, what the heck - dive into the deep end!

Edited June 27, 2008 by avengers63

[low end fuzz]

you will never get what your work is worth on ebay ,even if it is a crap throw together; and especially if its an uncomplete project; your competing (technically) with a machine that spits out bodies and necks faster than they can cut down the trees.

they mostly are ,yes, made out of poplar and ash but the people who buy from ebay is all that they are looking for ; (because thats what fender uses)

which if your practicing, you should be using as well;

or well plywood ,

dont con people, even if it is some dumb rich kid on the other side of the planet;

it will come to haunt you.

[avengers63]

you will never get what your work is worth on ebay

I don't know how else to say this.

I KNOW.

Seriously guys, I know I won't get what it's really worth. As I've already said, I've been on eBay for 8 years. I'm going into this eyes wide open. I've contacted my local stores, and I don't have any other options. I'm OK with it. I'm not under some false impression that I'll make a mint. I know this and it's not my plan.

There are >100 strat and tele bodies (each) on there at any given time. You'll not see me trying to sell one of them - the market there is way too overloaded. I've watched hundreds of auctions end, just to get a realistic price expectation. The alder, poplar, and ash bodies don't get anything. The other woods do. The more exotic sounding the wood or unusually figured/colored, the better.

Take Larry Karosa & his necks as an example. He sells his necks there constantly. He occasionally offers a maple/rosewood combo, but not very often because they only get $40 or so. Throw out a jatoba/purpleheart and it'll be pushing $100 or more. Clearly, that's not what its worth, but the price is a whole lot more for about the same cost of materials.

I appreciate your concern. Really, I do. I understand what you're trying to say, and as far as price, I agree with you. I'm in NO WAY trying to brush you off or appear that I don't want your input in any way. That being said... can we please move on?

[jer7440]

Hey Avenger...don't get dragged down in this attitude around here that you have to have made 300 perfect guitars and be able to charge 3 grand a piece for them before you dare sell any of your work. If you are up front and honest about exactly what you are selling, and you are happy with the price your pieces will bring...then more power to ya! It's not like you are taking on commissions that you are not qualified to do, and getting the money up front.

[peterbrown]

What have you got to do to earn your right to "sell" a guitar? It's just a hunk of wood anyway. I've seen guitars for sale in a music shop for $80 that I recon would make better fire wood than instruments. No one questioned their integrity! Some opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way. I would love to see this body through to the finished product, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do,

Cheers

Peter

[avengers63]

Anyone who was following this thread knows what these pics are all about. If not, we'll wait until you catch up with the rest of the crowd.

Polite pause.

OK, here goes. After I glued up the halves and planed them level, I discovered this 2" thick stock was onlt 1.5" to begin with. Grrrr. The test was already skewed. After looking at it for a couple of minutes, I decided to do the whole thing as a practice training exercise. Goodness knows I really need the practice at this point. So, I took off my annoyance and put on some enthusiasm.

I cut out the blank outline, routed it down to size with the template, and diagramed out the neck pocket, pups, and bridge line. After that, I made outlines os where the peaks of the carves would be. I then took the body to the drill press and made dwpth-marking holes around the edge. I picked up this trick from someone's thread here. Thanks, mystery man!

I clamped the body down to the table and declared "Say hello to my lil frin'!"... then attacked it with my angle grinder. No, I don't get out much.

The only parts I had any issue with were the bits around the neck pocket (go figure) and the bass side of the body where the grain is really far apart. The neck pocket is self-explanitory why there were issues. The wide parts sanded unevenly. This should have been expected. Grain lines are more dense than the growth in between. Fortunately, this all evened out with the palm sander. In fact, most of the uneven-ness smoothed out like that. There were just a few small bits I needed to do by hand.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...dy%201/pt04.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...dy%201/pt05.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...dy%201/pt06.jpg

Please note that these pics are after the angle grinder but before the palm sander. A few ripples may be seen, but they have been leveled out. Overall, I'm extremely satisfied with the results. There were a few things that could really only be learned by doing it and others that were re-enforced (like the space between the grain). The actual carving was very easy. I was quite surprised. After doing this, I'm confident that the carve on the "real" body will go well.

And speaking of the "real" body... I think the rosewood top looks pretty good. While it isn't bookatched, I think it really has the illusion of being so. A lot of the grain lined up nicely.

[fryovanni]

From what I've seen, the bodies that don't sell for a worthwhile price on eBay are strats and anything made from standard woods (poplar, ash, maple, etc). The more exotic the wood, the less common the body, the better it sells. In my mind, that makes a carved rosewood top PRS a decent choice. Doing a search 2 minutes ago for PRS, there were no results with a body.

Example While this one has an ash body, the bloodwood top is what's making the difference. I figure there is about $25-$30 of wood there, which is selling for >$150. This seller has ash bodies constantly for $70 that don't move.

I can't argue with the quilted/flamed maple top statements - they seem to do well, but not cost effective. With the price of well-figured maple, the going price has you about breaking even. FWIW: I think I have the species narrowed down, and it IS a rosewood. I think it's from Honduras.

I'll have about $25 invested in this body. If it sells for $65-$80, I'll be happy; that'll basically double my money after the fees are deducted. I'm not trying to make a living off of this. I just want to try and generate a little income to slowly fund my builds. This'll also give me some practice at the techniques.

I am pretty sure it is just what you called it. Trade names Carribean Rosewood,AKA Chechem, Poisonwood(never heard it called that though). species(Metopium brownei), not a true rosewood(dalbergia). It is popular for turning and what not, and is a nice looking wood. I think Carribean Rosewood is used a lot by the hardwood floor industry(use of the trade name that is), Personally, I would call it Chechem as it is often traded by that name in most woodworking circles. It can be a real bargain if you find a good looking piece, as it usually is about a $10-12 bd. ft. lumber., you will occasionally find it with nice strong figure(the turners eat that stuff up).

Hobby house usually has good pics when your trying to ID woods-link

Peace,Rich

Edit;

What have you got to do to earn your right to "sell" a guitar? It's just a hunk of wood anyway. I've seen guitars for sale in a music shop for $80 that I recon would make better fire wood than instruments. No one questioned their integrity! Some opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way. I would love to see this body through to the finished product, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do,

Cheers

Peter

Your right, anyone certainly has the right to sell whatever they want, and I am sure there are a lot of people who do just that.

The responce from people on this forum(negative) to selling guitars or even parts like this without having enough experience to know if your doing things correctly or making brutal begginer mistakes that you will not recognise until after you have experience(guitars and parts long since sold at that point). Will definately come back to hurt you if you ever try to build a reputation as competant skilled builder(where you can actually justify charging a fair rate for your skilled labor). If you just plan to sell off a few bits and pieces as hobbiest projects and never develop a reputation as a professional builder, it really wouldn't make much of a difference. As far as the bits you sell being right, wrong or whatever. If you are honest and state you have little to no experience making instruments, and this is just a bit of your work as a new hobbiest. Well that is pretty honest, and I don't see how the buyer could be mislead. A lot of people that sell their handywork try to give the impression that they are professionals and fully know what they are doing and that the work will be professionally exicuted. I don't think that is right or fair to the consumer, but hey that is also just the way some people do this stuff(good lord look around on ebay, you will find reputable sellers and the biggest hacks around, course you can find that anywhere).

Rich

Edited July 9, 2008 by fryovanni

[avengers63]

Hey, thanks a bunch. I think you nailed down the species. I looked up chechen on a few different sites. The prices I found had an average of $10.75/bf. This particular piece was 48x8x1 rough cut, or 2.66bf. I paid $23.42 including shipping, so I was in line with the average market value of $28.66, but didn't have to leave the house.

Just because I'm a little OCD:

I used 34 of the 48 lineal inches for the top, or 71% of the lumber, so the literal investment is $20.33. The remaining +/- 13 inches will be used in other projects, probably a box, so I don't consider the rest as a loss or scrap. Also, I was very careful when I cut the top to shape, so I'll be able to use the pieces that came from the skinny areas of the body, recouping an un-defined percentage of the cost - probably about 25-30 sq. in., or about $4.50-$4.75, reducing the actual cost of the top to $15 or so.

And THAT, my friends, is being cheap in a good way.

Edited July 9, 2008 by avengers63

[avengers63]

This isn't looking too bad. I have toe shop rag covering a pair of small blowouts I had with the router. I'm not gonna show them to you until I try and fix them. If I can't fix them to my satisfaction, I may end up keeping this one afterall.

Despite the fact that the top isn't bookmatched, I think it looks dang nice. There are some great color variations coming through - greens, bright reds, and warm browns.

[Geo]

I used 34 of the 48 lineal inches for the top, or 71% of the lumber, so the literal investment is $20.33. The remaining +/- 13 inches will be used in other projects, probably a box, so I don't consider the rest as a loss or scrap. Also, I was very careful when I cut the top to shape, so I'll be able to use the pieces that came from the skinny areas of the body, recouping an un-defined percentage of the cost - probably about 25-30 sq. in., or about $4.50-$4.75, reducing the actual cost of the top to $15 or so.

And I thought I was insane...

[avengers63]

OK, here's what happened. When I was routing around the trebel horn and the neck pocket, I had a couple of blowouts. After having such a major blowout with the jatoba a few weeks ago, I was REALLY taking it easy. Not that it mattered. Anyway, I was able to patch them up as well as possible. The neck pocket was widened out where it got ripped away, and you'll never see it once the neck is in place. The trebel horn is another story. The best I was able to do is glue on a piece with similar grain and shape it.

These other two pics are just better views of the carve.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...y%201/wip08.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...y%201/wip10.jpg

I'm still toying with the idea of putting a cream binding on it.

[fryovanni]

That Chechen should have a great reflectance when finished, I bet it will be quite striking in person(probably tricky to capture in a photo though).

What router bit are you using for your roundover/carve?

Rich

[avengers63]

That Chechen should have a great reflectance when finished, I bet it will be quite striking in person(probably tricky to capture in a photo though).

What router bit are you using for your roundover/carve?

Rich

Yea... the grain isn't getting picked up right in pictures. The flash is really highlighting the slight figuring in the middle, but not really doing anything for the amazing colors that are being displayed on the rest of it. There are a LOT of colors soming out that just aren't shown.

BITS: For the back, I used a 1/2" roundover. That may be more than is traditionally used, but I think it really helps the comfort level of the back. For the sides, I went along the template with either a 3/8" or 1/2" flush trim bit. You can still see the evidence of the bearing on the side of the body, just below the glue joint. I haven't sanded the sides down yet.

CARVE: I used a shallow cove bit with a bearing to make the "carve line" around the preimeter. I didn't go all the way to the points of the horn because I wasn't sure how steep I wanted to have the carve angle there. For the actual carving, I used an angle grinder with a sanding flapwheel. It isn't your traditionally shaped carve. It's more of a gradual slope than a true archtop-type carve. But... with that being done around the horns, I'm not sure how the binding would look. Honestly, the main reason I want to do the binding is to hide the mistakes around the edges. I'm nervous about it because I don't want to dork it up further.

One important lesson I've learned from doing the test carve on the pine and the actual carve on the chechen: set up a makeshift table and DO IT OUTSIDE!!!!! DANG but that dust covered EVERYTHING in my shop. I ain't never doin' THAT inside again!

[fryovanni]

That Chechen should have a great reflectance when finished, I bet it will be quite striking in person(probably tricky to capture in a photo though).

What router bit are you using for your roundover/carve?

Rich

Yea... the grain isn't getting picked up right in pictures. The flash is really highlighting the slight figuring in the middle, but not really doing anything for the amazing colors that are being displayed on the rest of it. There are a LOT of colors soming out that just aren't shown.

BITS: For the back, I used a 1/2" roundover. That may be more than is traditionally used, but I think it really helps the comfort level of the back. For the sides, I went along the template with either a 3/8" or 1/2" flush trim bit. You can still see the evidence of the bearing on the side of the body, just below the glue joint. I haven't sanded the sides down yet.

CARVE: I used a shallow cove bit with a bearing to make the "carve line" around the preimeter. I didn't go all the way to the points of the horn because I wasn't sure how steep I wanted to have the carve angle there. For the actual carving, I used an angle grinder with a sanding flapwheel. It isn't your traditionally shaped carve. It's more of a gradual slope than a true archtop-type carve. But... with that being done around the horns, I'm not sure how the binding would look. Honestly, the main reason I want to do the binding is to hide the mistakes around the edges. I'm nervous about it because I don't want to dork it up further.

One important lesson I've learned from doing the test carve on the pine and the actual carve on the chechen: set up a makeshift table and DO IT OUTSIDE!!!!! DANG but that dust covered EVERYTHING in my shop. I ain't never doin' THAT inside again!

You are going to have a hard time indexing the top to add binding at this point, might be safer to not or try doing it on your practice body first(you will see what I mean about indexing the top).

I have never tried a cove bit to set the carve line. I usually use a template bit with an undersized bearing. If I want to bind it I do that in a similar fashion. First routing for the carve line(something like 1/4-3/8" into the body, a little deeper if the carve is stronger), then change the bearing so it is appropriate for the binding thickness and adjust the router down to the proper depth, then cut the channel. If you want you can use a router to ruff out some of the bulk of the material to be carved(kinda like a topograffic map) which also gives you a little reference to carve depth. You can give your self some guide holes with a drill press and go to the grinder if you prefer, or if you are really comfortable just go with the grinder and flap wheel. Hand planes are good too, but thats all up to what you like using. Not sure if that helps much on this project, but maybe a bit of food for thought if you have some scrap and want to give it a try. Actually I think Setch had a tutorial or topic on how he carves that was pretty good, might want to have a look at that also(never hurts to see more methods, so you can pick what works best for you).

It might be helpful to stop your carve short of the neck pocket and refine it with a rasp. I like to make that area much steeper than the rest of the body to maintain more material around the pocket and a cleaner line in relation to the neck and fretboard(personal taste though )

Rich

[avengers63]

I'll probably be trying out the rasp more in the future. I have one, I'm just not good with it yet. By contrast, the angle grinder was REALLY easy to get used to.

I read Setch's tutorial about 3 times, as well as Eric Hauri's well-documented tutorial of his GBO V8, watching Perry's videos, and re-reading Hyssock's chapter on carving. Honestly, I was as prepared as I could be to do it. After practicing on the pine I was very confident, and I'm fairly pleased with the end result. The issue was with the router blowout.

I think in the future, I'll NOT try to rout the ends of the horns. I'll use the drill press planes someone turned me on to. It might not be as smooth or quick on operation, but if it eliminated the possibility of this continuing to happen, it's well worth it.

I can see how trying to do the binding routing at this point would be difficult at best. I'll chalk this up to a rookie mistake in the order of operations. With all the heming & hawing I've been doing about trying the binding, I guess I was needing an experienced guy to tell me not to do it. Thanks.

Overall, I think it may be time to stop with this body. There's a point when you're just making things worse if you keep tinkering with it, and I think I'm there. I know there's a way around the mistakes I've made, I just don't have the skill or knowledge to do it right now. I believe my plan now is to do the final prep sanding (smoothing the sides, carve, and eliminaring the burns) and make the control cavity cover from some thin mahogany.