What Is The Secret To Smooth Solo Tone?

[Xanthus]

So I've been kickin' around ideas in my head about how to make the tones I'm getting sound better out of my equipment. My V is still on the operating table, waiting for a pickup transplant. I'm playing my Carvin DC127 with i-dunno-what pickups, straight into the Carvin V3.

The Carvin is great for rhythm, and good for clean especially with my P Megaswitch but I find it a little too gritty/grainy for lead work. It's got too much harshness, too much bite. I've been reading up on Satch's sound/equipment, and I read that he likes to use an overdrive pedal to get a smooth lead sound out of his clean channel. I wanted to know what people might suggest as far as getting some nice articulate, smooth hair metal solos.

The pedals I've been looking at are, in no particular order:

-BOSS DS-1, with or without Keeley's mods. I used to have one, and I'm pissed I sold it (not to mention my NS-2........)

-BOSS SD-1, super overdrive. zakk-style. I could also use either of the BOSS pedals Jens-style with my keyboard \m/

-Fulltone OCD seems highly recommended. expensive, though

-Maxon 808. used by the drop-C crowd which I avoid like the plague, but apparently it gets the job done

-Ibanez tube screamer, with or without Keeley help. No clue on which kind to look into, I stay away from the TS voodoo, though like before, it gets the job done.

-Voodo Lab Sparkle Drive. I've heard good things. among others, coheed uses it. good enough for me.

-Vox Satchurator. from the man himself.

Before this, I was thinking about switching out the tubes to smooth out the sound more. The beast has stock tubes in it, and a full set from Eurotubes is about the same price as some of these pedals.

I've never used this OD pedal > clean amp setup before, except with a Metal Zone, single coils, into my old Gibson L5. That was a horror period in the history of tone.

Another piece of the puzzle might be my lack of chorus/phaser/reverb/delay, anything to sweeten up the sound. Just a guitar and amp, dry. So I'm not sure which path I should go on, but I want a nice smooth and articulate shredder tone. Even Michael Romeo can do it, and he plays a Dimarzio X2N into a Powerball. Not exactly the smoothest pickups or amps around

Edited August 10, 2008 by Xanthus

[borge]

speakers also play a huge part.......

some pedals work with some amps, you really need to try a few out to find what you like, personally i think the ds1 is rubbish.

the maxon and the sparkle drive are both TS clones/variations..... the sd1 is another ibanez clone too.....

i dont think any of the pedals you mention will give anywhere near hair metal gain levels into a clean channel, the ds1 and satchurator might get close....

seems a bit odd you're looking for a dist pedal for a 3 channel complex beast like the V3, how loud are you running it? too quiet is my guess.....

[psw]

I have a boss turbo Distortion and I think they made a turbo overdrive too that you might want to try out. The turbo sound is very smooth. Personally, I like a little background analogue delay (over reverb)and this can sometimes help to smooth things out quite a bit, even some graininess in the amp. I find that chorus like effects give sound a little sea sick and is very 80's...an echo gives a similar depth without the pitch shift.

Careful damping, legato use and picking location and angle play a big part in getting a smooth sound...play light but loud!

I've never used this OD pedal > clean amp setup before, except with a Metal Zone, single coils, into my old Gibson L5. That was a horror period in the history of tone.

That does sound bad. I never liked the metalzone thing...but then I don't play metal...it sounds like a fuzz to me.

Thinking about a pedal sounds like a good idea, picking the right one depends on a lot of factors.

One thing not mentioned is the guitar and pickups you are playing.

pete

[westhemann]

Reverb and delay is all you need,trust me on that...to be honest,you don't even need the delay.

I just have my reverb pedal(boss rv 5) set up to be noticeable,but not too deep,and it REALLY helps.

Send me your email via p.m. and I will attach a sound clip of me playing the intro lead to fade the black with nothing but stock amp gain and reverb.

[Xanthus]

Borge: I had the DS-1 before, it was my first crunch pedal. But this was back before I knew anything about.... well, anything really So I can't comment on how it sounds to me NOW. But a lot of the virtuoso guys have used it in their setups for years, so it must be doing something right, is my opinion. The speakers in my amp are G12-T75. The guy I bought it from said he used it for less than 9 months. I don't know how long a set needs, to be "broken in." As far as playing levels, I set up around 2, for bedroom playing. I'm in the process of designing an iso booth for recording. Maybe I should turn it up a notch... I realize that getting an OD pedal for my amp is a bit crazy, but I'm really confused as to what's "wrong" with my setup. I know bands like Killswitch, 3IOB, those guys use a Tube-Something in front of their Mesas and Madisons, but from what I've read, it's more to tighten up the attack than anything.

PSW: I'll take your recommendation for the Turbo, though I can't find exactly what you specify in their website. I'm a big fan of delay or phaser on solos, and I don't go crazy on chorus. I set it so it's very "flat" almost like a double-tracking effect. And I told you that setup was bad! I'm moving up in the world, from DS-1 > Crate practice amp, to metal zone > L5, to Pod, now I'm at the V3. It only took me 6 years or so! As far as guitars/pickups go, My main (until I get the V fixed) is a Carvin with Carvin pickups of unknown model. It's a maple neckthrough with some sort of open-grained wings. I'm thinking ash or mahog, but either way it looks kinda bland. I've also got a maple/mahog Explorer neckthrough with 81/60's. But for now, I'm sticking with the Carvin. Sadly, of the two guitars I've built, I still like the Carvin the best

Wes: Sending you a PM now, thanks!

-------------------

Any thoughts about switching out the tubes? This is what Carvin says about them:

- Preamp Tubes: Five 12AX7's (V1, V2, V3 are Groove Tubes™)

- Power Amp Tubes: 4-EL34 matched Groove Tubes™

Eurotubes has a pretty decent write-up of what sounds one could expect from each set of tubes, but I don't know nothin' about what tubes are good or bad.

[westhemann]

http://thetubestore.com/

I have dealt with them before..they are great...Just look for "low microphonics" in the tube description.

High end tubes always help

[Daniel Sorbera]

Reverb and delay is all you need,trust me on that...to be honest,you don't even need the delay.

I just have my reverb pedal(boss rv 5) set up to be noticeable,but not too deep,and it REALLY helps.

Send me your email via p.m. and I will attach a sound clip of me playing the intro lead to fade the black with nothing but stock amp gain and reverb.

+1

the right reverb and delay (mostly reverb) will make or break your solo tone.

[Metalhead28]

I've always smoothed out my lead tone a bit by running my Boss EQ in my effects loop and gently cutting some of the extreme highs and bumping up the mids a bit. It gives me a smooth, fat tone and a volume boost at the same time.

And like was already mentioned, delay / reverb makes a big difference.

[borge]

I'd be hesitant to change the tubes, the difference can be disappointingly subtle for some (but placebo effect is a powerful thing for others )

are you using it in a bedroom only situation? some tones can be great in the bedroom/stage/studio but suck in other situations, that gritty/grainy tone might be just what you need to cut through live

i cant count the number of times ive heard disappointment from 100watt all tube owning players, 99% of the time its because its just too damn quiet!

IME G12-T75 often have quite a scooped tone with a harsh top end (still a good speaker though!), maybe try another cab to see if thats the problem?

[westhemann]

I'd be hesitant to change the tubes, the difference can be disappointingly subtle for some (but placebo effect is a powerful thing for others

With tubes,it's more about low microphonics than "tone"...cut the background hissing and squeeling,and you get a better tone/noise ratio.Why would you want your hissing to "cut through" the mix?Turn up the mids until you cut through,if you must.

But I do find it amusing when people oblivious to subtle differences write it off as everyone else's "placebo effect"

I bought several 12ax7 tubes all at once in my old mode 4,and swapped them around until I was happy with the sound...less harshness,more cream..it does make a difference,but it will in no way make up for reverb.By the way,manufacturers invariably use cheap tubes to cut down price and sell more product...

I also retubed my old fender twin reverb using tubes all bought for low microphonics/low gain...the tone difference was gigantic,but that was a completely different application for sure...you just have to research for your choice.

[borge]

I'd be hesitant to change the tubes, the difference can be disappointingly subtle for some (but placebo effect is a powerful thing for others

With tubes,it's more about low microphonics than "tone"...cut the background hissing and squeeling,and you get a better tone/noise ratio.Why would you want your hissing to "cut through" the mix?Turn up the mids until you cut through,if you must.

But I do find it amusing when people oblivious to subtle differences write it off as everyone else's "placebo effect"

if he was complaining about microphonics/noise/hiss its a given to check the tubes.........but theres no talk of that......

all im saying is tube swapping shouldn't be the first port of call in situations like this, theres likely a cheaper/faster/more adjustable solution.

if he had asked for earlier/later breakup or less preamp fizz thats another story.....

I bought several 12ax7 tubes all at once in my old mode 4,and swapped them around until I was happy with the sound...less harshness,more cream..it does make a difference,but it will in no way make up for reverb.By the way,manufacturers invariably use cheap tubes to cut down price and sell more product...

I also retubed my old fender twin reverb using tubes all bought for low microphonics/low gain...the tone difference was gigantic,but that was a completely different application for sure...you just have to research for your choice.

i was swapping out preamp tubes in my bassman 50 at a jam one night and everyone could hear the "difference" even when i pretended to swap but didnt "oh thats much smoother now" "yeah, less top end fizz" ect.

one guitarist there (who supplied the tubes, also an amp tech) was grinning to himself in the corner, he hears that stuff everyday, he livelihood is based on it, even though his 'scope says otherwise......... although i wouldn't expect many techs to admit to that!

when i changed to a high end speaker cable everyone was shocked, it was like i took a blanket of the cab! when i took my wah of my pedalboard it was like i took another blanket off! man those dunlop buffers suck!

people hear what they want to hear..... only a blind AB test can really show the difference.

/rant

[westhemann]

I am so sorry some can't hear the difference between low microphonic tubes and the cheapies,but I guess that means they won't spend much on tubes,so it is a blessing,in a way.Nice anectdote,but as we all know,anectdotal evidence is usually imagination based.

Hell,even letting the tubes get good and hot affects the tone,but I agree tubes are not the basis of the poster's issue...But he didn'e ask if they would give him a smooth lead tone...he said

Any thoughts about switching out the tubes? This is what Carvin says about them:

- Preamp Tubes: Five 12AX7's (V1, V2, V3 are Groove Tubes™)

- Power Amp Tubes: 4-EL34 matched Groove Tubes™

Eurotubes has a pretty decent write-up of what sounds one could expect from each set of tubes, but I don't know nothin' about what tubes are good or bad.

Which I take to be a standalone question...groove tubes suck...they are very noisy and all that extra noise will give you headaches and deafen you quick,which may explain why you can't hear the difference?

Anyway...happy we could have this talk...

I feel like I will never get the last five minutes back...

[borge]

I am so sorry some can't hear the difference between low microphonic tubes and the cheapies,but I guess that means they won't spend much on tubes,so it is a blessing,in a way.

again with the microphonics! low microphonics/noise levels has little affect on "tone", gain factor and current draw do, sure no one wants a noisy amp but if low noise was the be all and end all everyone would've chucked their single coils out for emgs

but if the gains on 10 (like in this case) noise/microphonics probably outweigh the "tone" side of it.

Nice anectdote,but as we all know,anectdotal evidence is usually imagination based.

thats exactly the point

[westhemann]

I am just funnin' ya.Tone arguments are never productive...I just always ditch the cheap tubes for low microphonics...and if YOU don't play high gain full time as I do,you will never know what I am talking about.

But so you know,the original poster plays high gain like me.So we win,you lose

Also,the v3 is much similar to the engl head I play through,and I sent the man sound clips,so he probably likes me better than you...and I am also very good looking...

the one on the right is me

[joshvegas]

Thats quite a pair....

...of headlights!

[westhemann]

Yes,look at my headlights...

[Muzz]

and I am also very good looking...

the one on the right is me

The next time 'you' have a pillow fight with your friend just pop a picture or seven on the Announcements board.

[westhemann]

Sure thing,no prob

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loupiote/2267485695/

[Muzz]

[westhemann]

Nothing funny about a pillow fight...pillows can be quite the blunt instrument of trauma and death.

[Xanthus]

Thats quite a pair....

...of headlights!

There's a car in that picture?

har har har har

Anyways, I didn't notice there was postage going on on this thread until right now. I'm a bit more content now that I've switched out my PAF Pro bridge for a Tone Zone. The thing is much more smoother, and much ballsier! Now if I could only sort out this hum/noise issue I'll be set!

Yep, shameless plug. I'm going to burn in Forum Ettiquite Hell.

I can't wait to get a G Major or similar multieffects to finally have some effects. I mean, I have the plug ins in ProTools, but I find the actual equipment much easier to use.

I've been looking around at tubes, though, just for kicks and the fact that now I have a real job waiting for me at school. I've heard good things about the guy over at Eurotubes, that if you sit down and discuss what you're looking to get tonally or improve upon he can point you in the right direction. Also, Wes' link had a ton of information that I bookmarked and am working through. On a similar note, the 5150III amp is a MONSTER. The only thing I didn't like is that the clean channel isn't as clean as it could be (I like the JSX's idea of a no-drive clean channel). I can't find any info on what brand tubes are in the 5150, and though I know tubes aren't everything (this thread proved that and more ) did anyone have any information on it?

Next time I have a car, I really want to A/B the Carvin and JSX, because every time I sit down and play the Satch amp, I love the hell out of it.....

[westhemann]

The JSX is one hell of an amp...I had one for a month before I traded for my engl...I honestly believe the JSX is a more toneful amp than the engl...it's just too microphonic...needs better tubes(the JSX)

[Muzz]

OK the recipe for a smooth solo tone and to make an impact.

Your solo has to DOMINATE, there is nothing so pitiful as a solo that is getting drowned out by the band, whatever volume you were playing at before the lead break has to increase a lot when you are doing the widdly diddly stuff, you need a sound mixer that knows the songs or you need a second master volume (cranked) on your amp that is foot switchable. The second option is better because it injects more power amp gain that is going to give you a fatter smoother sound. The option of a switchable midi preamp as well as your tube amp can give you a whole swag of more solo tone options.

Next is a good delay to add the overtones that inject harmony and emotion to the solo.

Essential component (for parts of the solo, not the whole thing), speed, it adds exhilaration. Melody and unpredictability are also essential ingredients.

Some of my favourite solos that tick these boxes, Megadeth - A Tout le Monde, KISS - Deuce, Metallica - Enter Sandman, Thin Lizzy - The Black Rose, Vain - Secrets, Backyard Babies - Making Enemies is Good, LA Guns - I Wanna Be Your Man.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Muzz

[The royal consort]

Smooth Solo tone (in my world anyway)

Sey hello to your neck pickup and roll the tone down a bit.

If your using a very metal rythm sound an EQ pedal in the effects loop with a mid boost set into it is probably also not a bad idea.

Reverb, chorus and delay.... if you like.... I like a touch of chorus on everything...

Reverb is easy to overuse and muddy yourself, especially live, but it never fails to amaze me how much delay can be gotten away with...

Pedal vs Tube overdrive...

Well tubes are really better for this sort of thing... unless like me you use fender amps...

Both my ProCo Rat and H&K Warp Factor can produce smooth tones without a problem...

[Muzz]

Smooth Solo tone (in my world anyway)

Sey hello to your neck pickup and roll the tone down a bit.

Yep, good advice, Slash and Carlos would agree with that.

More stuff to try, look on the internet, buy the cheapest single coil pup you can find, it should have lots of buzz, put it in your guitar and play it through hot valves.

Double track your solo, pan it to 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock. Tap so it sounds like bagpipes. Create some digital weirdness on the second solo.

Click on >>>> Van Muzzlen

Edited September 6, 2008 by Muzz