AndrewCE Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 I have read many places that vintage guitars had cloth-coated wires connecting the components. Does this DO anything differently than plastic coated wire? Or is is just for people who are **** about vintage replication and identification? One place said that cloth wires were individually shielded by the cotton. Isn't cotton nonconductive? I am confused. Answers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Authenticity for the intended build. That's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 The "shielded" thing...they probably mean insulated...one thing about cloth covered wire is that the cloth can be pulled back and soldered...then the cloth pulled back over the join...but yes it is an authenticity thing like using exotic vintage caps as much as anything. soooo many questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 The "shielded" thing...they probably mean insulated...one thing about cloth covered wire is that the cloth can be pulled back and soldered...then the cloth pulled back over the join...but yes it is an authenticity thing like using exotic vintage caps as much as anything. soooo many questions! that pulling cloth over the joint thing sounds cool... do i ask too many questions? it's only because i love guitar electronics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I have read many places that vintage guitars had cloth-coated wires connecting the components. Does this DO anything differently than plastic coated wire? Or is is just for people who are **** about vintage replication and identification? One place said that cloth wires were individually shielded by the cotton. Isn't cotton nonconductive? I am confused. Answers? dude did this website just bleep out the word that starts with a cr- and ends with a -azy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Maybe he said nuts Nope, nevermind Edited January 5, 2009 by Keegan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Cloth wire isn't any different than any other insulated wire. Like already mentioned, it's mainly just for the people obsessed with vintage this and vintage that. If you're building a '59 Bassman or a brownface replica, then the cloth wire would need to be included since that is what was used at the time those amps were made. Details, details... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I will say, after using cloth wire (it came with an amp kit I built once) the push-back properties of it are a peach to work with - no stripping, no heat shrink if you want an extra bit of protection against shorts, and often you can pull it right up over the tabs of the pots. Makes working much quicker. That said, seeing the condition of ancient cotton wire in the telephone lines in my house makes me understand why it was phased out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I will say, after using cloth wire (it came with an amp kit I built once) the push-back properties of it are a peach to work with - no stripping, no heat shrink if you want an extra bit of protection against shorts, and often you can pull it right up over the tabs of the pots. Makes working much quicker. That said, seeing the condition of ancient cotton wire in the telephone lines in my house makes me understand why it was phased out. There's another old solution you can use. It's called spaghetti. Usually made of cloth, and comes in various sizes, and can be pulled over solder joints. It's main use is in point to point wiring, where lots of long, uninsulated component leads might come into contact with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hey, isn't cloth wire also solid core? That doesn't work too well in an environment where the wires will get moved around a lot - they will break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 The wires in a amp are fairly heavy gauge and they don't get moved that much so it holds up fine. btw in my humble opinion i think that all the "mojo" associated with cloth is bs its just a way to get you to spend money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 btw in my humble opinion i think that all the "mojo" associated with cloth is bs its just a way to get you to spend money. I agree, it's mostly hype. Just like hi-fi speaker wire and guitar cables. And a good many other things, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I agree, it's mostly hype. Just like hi-fi speaker wire and guitar cables. And a good many other things, too. WOAH i disagree there. Cable capacitance does play a role in guitar tone; you lose high end, especially with the volume pot turned down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarter Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I like and use 22ga stranded cloth wire on my steels, it looks cool, makes for a clean looking join, is handy and not much extra coin in the scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) I agree, it's mostly hype. Just like hi-fi speaker wire and guitar cables. And a good many other things, too. WOAH i disagree there. Cable capacitance does play a role in guitar tone; you lose high end, especially with the volume pot turned down. It's never been a concern for me, I HATE that icepick in your forehead treble sound. I like a thicker, meatier sound. I also think that most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a $100 3-foot long Monster cable and a 25-foot long $25 cable in a blindfolded test. This kind of stuff is psychoacoustics at work again. The same kind of snake oil hogwash as "oxygen-free copper". I know, now you're going to tell me that you can hear the difference, blah, blah, blah. But can you really? Or are actually thinking that you can because you believe it is true? That's why people need to do a blindfolded test to really truly let their ears decide. I submit to you that it's in people's minds that a cable that costs four times as much and has a few pF/per foot less capacitance is so immensely better. Edited January 7, 2009 by Paul Marossy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 It's never been a concern for me, I HATE that icepick in your forehead treble sound. I like a thicker, meatier sound. I also think that most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a $100 3-foot long Monster cable and a 25-foot long $25 cable in a blindfolded test. This kind of stuff is psychoacoustics at work again. The same kind of snake oil hogwash as "oxygen-free copper". I know, now you're going to tell me that you can hear the difference, blah, blah, blah. But can you really? Or are actually thinking that you can because you believe it is true? That's why people need to do a blindfolded test to really truly let their ears decide. I submit to you that it's in people's minds that a cable that costs four times as much and has a few pF/per foot less capacitance is so immensely better. actually i've never done a blindfold test between cables but i have rolled down my volume control and noticed that it gets muddy. "muddy" not "thick" or "heavy". Simply cutting highs makes something sound muddy. and even if there's not noticable difference, all those little things all over your sound combine to make a significant difference even so, i personally don't think $50 is reasonable for any guitar cable, even a 0mF cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddW Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) but i have rolled down my volume control and noticed that it gets muddy. "muddy" not "thick" or "heavy". Simply cutting highs makes something sound muddy. and even if there's not noticable difference, all those little things all over your sound combine to make a significant difference even so, i personally don't think $50 is reasonable for any guitar cable, even a 0mF cable Here you go Andrew, Easiest fix around and it'll only cost you $0.50 or so: http://www.bothner.co.za/articles/volumepot2.shtml or http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/volpass.php I like the first one, but the second also shows a 150k resistor has nothing to do with fixing the muddyness. It just changes the curve of the pot so the volume change is less extreme at the end so I put it up in case you felt like adding it at the same time. edit: I just realized that the guitarnuts person simply got confused. He probably meant to talk about putting the 150k in series with the capacitor, which is a good tweek to this, and does just what the first link says. But he added a resistor in parallel, and that does something completely different. I'm not sure that 150k would be the right value to use in parallel, because it depends on if you have a 250 or 500k volume pot. I'd use a higher value, but a search will find you more detail. If you already knew about these, sorry for being redundant. Best, Todd Edited January 8, 2009 by ToddW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I agree, it's mostly hype. Just like hi-fi speaker wire and guitar cables. And a good many other things, too. WOAH i disagree there. Cable capacitance does play a role in guitar tone; you lose high end, especially with the volume pot turned down. It's never been a concern for me, I HATE that icepick in your forehead treble sound. I like a thicker, meatier sound. I also think that most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a $100 3-foot long Monster cable and a 25-foot long $25 cable in a blindfolded test. This kind of stuff is psychoacoustics at work again. The same kind of snake oil hogwash as "oxygen-free copper". I know, now you're going to tell me that you can hear the difference, blah, blah, blah. But can you really? Or are actually thinking that you can because you believe it is true? That's why people need to do a blindfolded test to really truly let their ears decide. I submit to you that it's in people's minds that a cable that costs four times as much and has a few pF/per foot less capacitance is so immensely better. i certainly think (some will say its psychoacoustics i suppose, i guess i have to trust my ears) i can hear the difference between a curly and straight guitar lead... the treble roll off you get seems very noticeable but different to the treble roll-off you get with a long vs short lead (which is also obvious and undeniable). And i can tell the difference between my 10' cheapo cable and the 10' dimarzio one, why i havnt thrown the cheapo one out i will never know!! You dont have to spend stupid money on cables but i wouldnt just accept cheap ones either. The dimarzio's are a fair price for a good sounding (and non tangling) cable, the award session cleartones seem good as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Easiest fix around and it'll only cost you $0.50 or so: http://www.bothner.co.za/articles/volumepot2.shtml or http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/volpass.php I like the first one, but the second also shows a 150k resistor has nothing to do with fixing the muddyness. It just changes the curve of the pot so the volume change is less extreme at the end so I put it up in case you felt like adding it at the same time. edit: I just realized that the guitarnuts person simply got confused. He probably meant to talk about putting the 150k in series with the capacitor, which is a good tweek to this, and does just what the first link says. But he added a resistor in parallel, and that does something completely different. I'm not sure that 150k would be the right value to use in parallel, because it depends on if you have a 250 or 500k volume pot. I'd use a higher value, but a search will find you more detail. If you already knew about these, sorry for being redundant. Best, Todd i've already done that to my guitars ( I actually have a thread about it on this board somewhere). It works pretty well, but the volume taper is not quite the same. It only fights against the cable capacitance, but it would still be better if you could eliminate the capacitance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 i've already done that to my guitars ( I actually have a thread about it on this board somewhere). It works pretty well, but the volume taper is not quite the same. It only fights against the cable capacitance, but it would still be better if you could eliminate the capacitance. Go down the radio shack and get you some tv antana wire that sould do away with the capacitance but you may have problems with hum. J/K Sorry couldn't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewCE Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Go down the radio shack and get you some tv antana wire that sould do away with the capacitance but you may have problems with hum. J/K Sorry couldn't resist. Grrrrr... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 hehehe.... You know the "sweet switch" that PES originally put on their guitars was to simulate cable capacitance for people who go wireless and therefore don't experience it...the idea was to put that back into the guitar. It was silly and overly complicated, add a switch for no good reason (that could have been put inside the guitar if necessary at all) and has since been abandoned. Cloth covered cables inside the guitar are generally not such a good idea...it is generally used in point to point high voltage valve amp applications. Inside the guitar the lengths are very short so there is little capacitance at all. If you shield the guitar, normal stranded wire is best...if not shielded...it might be an idea to use shielded cable inside the cavity...but generally it is more trouble than it is worth if the pickup cables are shielded and the output jack wire is shielded, that is more than enough generally. These little lengths are pretty irrelevant. ... I bought a costly (relatively) cable last year...the socket end broke inside on the first "live" use...hmmm...better to have a couple of decent ones so you have a spare than one good one that might fail when you need it most! Cloth covered wire is not "shielded" but simply insulated against shorting...plastic insulation inside a guitar is better wearing and reliable. If you have some really exotic and close work...wiring tiny connections on a phase switch for instance...sometime solid insulate wire is better and easier to use (it won't flex around). It is even possible, should you think there might be a chance of shorting if things move around inside a guitar...to insulate solid wire or joins with a coating of nail varnish...not the best if you need to desolder and rewire later. Use of insulating tape can be useful too...shielded cavities can often touch hot connections on a strat switch and not be apparent till you screw the scratchplate down...a bit of PVC tape over the shielding will insulate the connections against that possibility and not affect the shielding qualities at all...I have been caught out with this kind of thing before. A buffer will eliminate most capacitance effects...it can be useful to use something like this even at the start of an effects chain...I used to use an active hall effect volume pedal with gain from 0-20dB at my feet when I played in bands...good for a boost for a solo...some expressive volume swells...or just turning the thing off to tune or between songs...plus, you have a variable "hotness" of pickup output and eliminate most capacitance effects! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I agree, it's mostly hype. Just like hi-fi speaker wire and guitar cables. And a good many other things, too. WOAH i disagree there. Cable capacitance does play a role in guitar tone; you lose high end, especially with the volume pot turned down. It's never been a concern for me, I HATE that icepick in your forehead treble sound. I like a thicker, meatier sound. I also think that most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a $100 3-foot long Monster cable and a 25-foot long $25 cable in a blindfolded test. This kind of stuff is psychoacoustics at work again. The same kind of snake oil hogwash as "oxygen-free copper". I know, now you're going to tell me that you can hear the difference, blah, blah, blah. But can you really? Or are actually thinking that you can because you believe it is true? That's why people need to do a blindfolded test to really truly let their ears decide. I submit to you that it's in people's minds that a cable that costs four times as much and has a few pF/per foot less capacitance is so immensely better. i certainly think (some will say its psychoacoustics i suppose, i guess i have to trust my ears) i can hear the difference between a curly and straight guitar lead... the treble roll off you get seems very noticeable but different to the treble roll-off you get with a long vs short lead (which is also obvious and undeniable). And i can tell the difference between my 10' cheapo cable and the 10' dimarzio one, why i havnt thrown the cheapo one out i will never know!! You dont have to spend stupid money on cables but i wouldnt just accept cheap ones either. The dimarzio's are a fair price for a good sounding (and non tangling) cable, the award session cleartones seem good as well I personally am not really concerned about cable capacitance. But I am concerned with how long it's going to last and how reliable it is likely to be. Of course, I don't want something with terrible capacitance, either. I will agree with the coiled cable having more capacitance vs. a straight cable. The coiled cable has a lot more capacitance by design. I still think people that fork out ridiculous money for Monster cables and "oxygen free" copper are being, well, ripped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hey, isn't cloth wire also solid core? That doesn't work too well in an environment where the wires will get moved around a lot - they will break. The cloth wire I use is multi-strand. Its a joy to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hey, isn't cloth wire also solid core? That doesn't work too well in an environment where the wires will get moved around a lot - they will break. The cloth wire I use is multi-strand. Its a joy to work with. They have stranded cloth wire? Wow, I didn't know that. That's cool. I actually do like they way cloth wire looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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