troyw Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Got one coat of filler on. Looks good except for the red grain lines which did nothing at all. I'll let it dry and sand back and do another coat tomorrow. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I did a little work on those knots before filling today to make them a little more natural looking...here are some pics. I think they look better. Still not sure I'm happy with the overall results of the dark filler. I was hoping to get a little more of a striped pattern then I did. Maybe it's just not going to work out with this piece of ash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 i think the grainfill worked really well - shoudl look good under a colour i think you have done enough with the filled bits to make them ok under the colour as well... not perfect but most wont notice that aint natural wood grain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 i think you have done enough with the filled bits to make them ok under the colour as well... not perfect but most wont notice that aint natural wood grain Thanks Wez! Yeah, they're all on the back which will be stained black anyway...with the color on, I'm hoping they'll look fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 What's the dry time between coats of filler? (Pore-o-pac) Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Check the label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Check the label. Gee there's a thought... I would have never thought of that on my own. The can says "over night" but it doesn't seem like it's very set up overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm kind of having a change of heart on the color of this thing. I was originally thinking olive green because I like that color a lot and thought it would be different. Now that I look at the wood I'm not sure that's the best option. Seems to be crying out for something warmer. (red, amber, umber) Are there any techniques for black under a tinted finish? I was wondering what would happen if I stained it black and then come back over it with a color tinted clear. My thoughts are that it would look black until the light hit it the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 The can says "over night" but it doesn't seem like it's very set up overnight. There's nothing wrong with giving it another day if you're unsure about it. There's one extremely important thing to have when building guitars - patience. I had to learn it the hard way, but you cannot rush things. So again, if it doesn't seem like it's been long enough, give it some more time. Going too slow will never hurt anything, but going too fast can easily ruin it all. I wouldn't go green over black. I tried it - you couldn't tell the grain was black at all. FWIW: I used hunter green stain. A dye MIGHT act different, but I can't testify to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I wouldn't go green over black. I tried it - you couldn't tell the grain was black at all. FWIW: I used hunter green stain. A dye MIGHT act different, but I can't testify to it. Thanks John - Actually I wasn't going to do green over black...My original thought was to do an olive to black burst. Now, after looking at the sealed and filled piece, I kinda feel like it needs a warmer color (especially with that red stripe of grain) so I was thinking over some alternative ideas. One thought that I had was to stain the whole thing black and then put a dark red or amber tint over that but i'm not sure yet. This is where being an artist gets to be frustrating. Too many ideas...In the digital world I work in, you've always got the "undo" command...no such luck here other than a few sheets of sand paper and lots of elbow grease! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Here is the body after two coats of filler and sanded. I tried to catch some light on it but I'm not sure I was getting the right angle where I was at. Now I guess it's on tot he sanding sealer. I can see a few small pores but I'm ok with that if the SS doesn't get them. I'm finishing in oil so a slight woody look is ok with me. What kind of stain or dye is going to adhere best to the sealcoat? (I'm not spraying.) It's Zinsser Bulls eye sealcoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 The only real issue with using sanding sealer is that it sometimes doesn't stick well to finishes. There's a soap-like lubricant added to make it sand easier and not load up the sandpaper as quickly. It's that lubricant that occasionally interferes. Personally, I have used sanding sealer under shellac, lacquer, and poly, and haven't had a problem yet. That's not to say that you won't, just that I haven't... yet. So... if you're worried about even the possibility, what can you do about it? Use a coat of shellac. Shellac is one of those odd finishes that sticks to EVERYTHING. I'm confident that if you laid out the sanding sealer like you wanted, smoothed it out, then laid on a coat of shellac, whatever top coat you use will stick great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 The only real issue with using sanding sealer is that it sometimes doesn't stick well to finishes. There's a soap-like lubricant added to make it sand easier and not load up the sandpaper as quickly. It's that lubricant that occasionally interferes. Personally, I have used sanding sealer under shellac, lacquer, and poly, and haven't had a problem yet. That's not to say that you won't, just that I haven't... yet. So... if you're worried about even the possibility, what can you do about it? Use a coat of shellac. Shellac is one of those odd finishes that sticks to EVERYTHING. I'm confident that if you laid out the sanding sealer like you wanted, smoothed it out, then laid on a coat of shellac, whatever top coat you use will stick great. The sanding sealer I'm using is shellac...thinned down...100% wax free. I know that shellac is pretty compatible with most everything but is that going to go for stains or dyes too? That's my next step. I already know I'm finishing in oil so I need to know what is best to use for color that will "stick" the the shellac and not cause I problem with the oil. Actually, if I use a few coats of sealcoat after the color the finish really wont matter will it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 The sanding sealer I'm using is shellac...thinned down...100% wax free. I know that shellac is pretty compatible with most everything but is that going to go for stains or dyes too? That's my next step. I already know I'm finishing in oil so I need to know what is best to use for color that will "stick" the the shellac and not cause I problem with the oil. Actually, if I use a few coats of sealcoat after the color the finish really wont matter will it? Big question - is it a sanding sealer or a thinned down (washcoat) of shellac? What does the label say it is? Second, what type of oil are you using for the finish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Big question - is it a sanding sealer or a thinned down (washcoat) of shellac? What does the label say it is? Second, what type of oil are you using for the finish? Zinsser Bullseye® SealCoat - 100% wax free shellac Tru-oil was what i had in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 I have a can of that Sealcoat and it works fine for whatever you need really. Just be sure it's under three years old as it has a shelf life and you may want to thin it because it comes in a 2lb. cut which isn't that thin, especially for a wash coat. Its up to you though, honestly I tried that for a while and while it worked I found melting my own shellac flakes much better. You have more control over everything and its going to be as fresh as you can get, you also have a say in color which is not something you can control with the Sealcoat. Plus, I enjoy melting flakes, it doesn't take anything special at all either. Tru-oil is cool, I've been playing with that for a while, something that the member here Quarter said and its something I agree with entirely, go with very thin layers on the tru-oil, it is so much easier to control that way and lots less work. Best of luck! J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Don't know if this will help but here is a virtual mock up I did at USA guitar. This is kind of what I'm shooting for. it's a little more green than what I'm after but it's close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foil1more Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Well, I don't think you can use straight stain over shellac. You could mix color in with the shellac, but I haven't tried this yet so I couldn't give you any hints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Stain or dye needs to penetrate in order to work. The idea of sealing the wood is to prevent moisture from being introduces to the wood. Can't stain/dye it if it can't get into the pores. I don't know that you'd NEED the sealer coat of shellac with tru-oil. Every barrier finish (which tru-oil is) seals the wood just fine with the first coat or two. The subsequent coats build up the thickness. So, for pure sealing purposes, the shellac would be un-necessary. Now, you've introduced color to the wood. With that, you'd need to consider if the solvent would draw the pigment from the wood, dorking up the whole process. To the best of my knowledge, grain filler doesn't become solvent again after it dries, so whatever solvent is in the finish would not draw the pigment out. If you do stain/dye the body, repeat the whole process on a piece of scrap and test everything on there. Alcohol, shellac's solvent, might draw the pigment, as could whatever is in tru-oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) I'm starting over - I took it down to bare wood again. I just didn't feel happy with the way things where going so far and since it's my first build I want something I can be proud of. I found a few color choices for the olive green that I want. One is a dylon dye that can be used like RIT. It has no salt added so I think it might be safer than RIT. I tried it on a piece of ash that I got my hands on and it worked well. The problem was that I used Denatured Alcohol and it seems like a lot of the crystals didn't dissolve. Because of this it came out more hunter green than olive. when I dumped the sludge after straining it there was a lot of sandy yellowish crystals so I'm thinking that was why it changed shades. maybe it needs the heat to melt ALL of the powder so it might be better go use water and treat it like an aniline dye. The other is a waterbased stain by either behr or minwax they can make customer colors at the paint counter and they have a few different shades of olive green that are really nice and warm. After working with the scrap I kind of feel like it would be better to dye/stain first and then do the filler. The concern I have with this is that I'm not so great at sanding yet and am concerned with sand through into the color. The reason I think it might be better is that the stain seems to bring out a lot more of the grain lines than the filler alone did. (going by my test piece.) I also feel like the washcoat before doing the filler screwed me up a little on the first go round. I probably put it on too heavy cause and it blocked or rounded off some of the pores so the filler didn't stick as well as it should have. The nice part was that I could practically wipe off the excess filler after it was dry. Anyhow that is my sad story Back to the drawing board. Gonna read a few chapters of Flexner, research a few things on the net and see if I can make some headway today. (Or at least get a good game plan.) Edited February 15, 2009 by troyw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 You probably made the right move. It might feel like a small defeat, but it'll lead to a greater win in the long run. Sometimes, you just have to blow up and start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I've got the body stripped back down and filled again. If there's one thing I've learned it's not to use Pore-o-pac filler again. It's a pain! Here's the body now. The green speck in the control cavity is pretty much the color I'm looking for as the base color. But the only thing I could find the color I like in was a waterbased stain and a powdered (RIT type) dye. Neither worked. The dye was too green and didn't dissolve properly in the denatured alcohol. Then I tried the WB stain...This didn't look good on my test piece though...really muddy. It's almost like paint! It's lacks the richness of stained wood. Not good. After much deliberation and loosing a few night sleep, I've decided to go with Aniline dye and do it the way I originally planned. (per the video posted above) I ordered the full set of colors from LMI and figured I can make whatever shades I want (with the help of my wife who's an artist) to use and do my burst more creatively than with the WB stain. Which seems to form a barrier so the next color doesn't absorb into the wood. It's crap! I don't want to sand it down again but I figure if I do have to it's because of something the I really wanted to do and it didn't work out. Not because I'm trying to get something out of product that I feel aren't going to look good. I talked to the guy at LMI about it and he said that I should have no major problems with the dye on ash and seems surprised when I told him that I'd been told differently. I'm going to play around with the other powered dye today just to get a feel for the wiping and blending. If I get the result I'm after on my test piece, I'll take a pic. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Going into the dying mode today with waterbased aniline. The body has been sanded down again and, as a result, some of the grain lines/filler has been lots (again) I'm going forward with the color then I'm going to do a wash coat of thinned down sealcoat (shellac) and spot fill where I need it. The sealcoat made it so easy to get off the excess filler that I feel this a better option for me. Putting the black filler on the raw wood just seems to stain it so much that I need to sand the hell out of it to get it off and thus loosing my fill or opening up more pores. I know If I do have to sand at all after color it's going to have to be a light touch to avoid sand through areas but I'm prepared to deal with that as opposed to trying to apply the filler to the unsealed wood again. I spent some time talking on the phone with a finishing guy from the MIM board and he seems to feel this is also a good way for me to go. I'll post some pics as soon as I have some results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I Think I got my colors worked out. Not sure how it's going to translate on the web but this is looking pretty good in real time. The main color is a little more olive than it looks here but you get the gist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyw Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hey all - Well, I got the dye on and while i'm pretty happy with the way the burst went down. (still need to finesse it a bit) I'm not so happy with the uneven color of the Olive. This is with the first application of dye and I know that dye looks pretty bad unfinished but if anyone has any "fix" or blending ideas I'm all ears. I did it once before and it looked less blotchy but that time I sanded down to a finer grit. maybe I need to sand it down finer so it is less porous? Also, if I sand it off the front, (the back is fine as it's all black) when do I have to be concerned with it taking the bridge position down too low? I've done it 3 times already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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