Need Help Finishing Stained Flame Maple

[exiler]

Hello all, first time poster here.

I have a flame maple body that I stained black with stewmac colortone dye, and after putting on a couple coats of sanding sealer, I'm noticing that the surface feels rough and the flame is not shimmering like I would expect it to. I'm wondering if it's because I didn't wet and sand the wood before staining it (which I didnt hear about until after i stained it) , so that now after being wet the wood is rougher than when I started and is too rough to shine. Or is this normal at this stage and after putting on more lacquer and polishing the final finish to a high gloss the shimmer will come back? I'm considering sanding the sealer off and starting over, but I'm worried that I won't be able to get all the sealer off and if I try to re-stain it'll come out really blotchy. (It's dyed in a bit of a burst pattern which I think will be really hard to recreate if any sealer remains) Anyone have advice?

I've done a lacquer finish over a paint before, but this is my first time working with figured wood. It's also my first complete build so I want it to come out nice.

Thanks!

[Woodenspoke]

Hello all, first time poster here.

I have a flame maple body that I stained black with stewmac colortone dye, and after putting on a couple coats of sanding sealer, I'm noticing that the surface feels rough and the flame is not shimmering like I would expect it to. I'm wondering if it's because I didn't wet and sand the wood before staining it (which I didnt hear about until after i stained it) , so that now after being wet the wood is rougher than when I started and is too rough to shine. Or is this normal at this stage and after putting on more lacquer and polishing the final finish to a high gloss the shimmer will come back? I'm considering sanding the sealer off and starting over, but I'm worried that I won't be able to get all the sealer off and if I try to re-stain it'll come out really blotchy. (It's dyed in a bit of a burst pattern which I think will be really hard to recreate if any sealer remains) Anyone have advice?

I've done a lacquer finish over a paint before, but this is my first time working with figured wood. It's also my first complete build so I want it to come out nice.

Thanks!

Not an expert here but the wood should have been rough prior to you adding sealer. You can try sanding it down and see if you can flatten it without ruining the stain. Certianly do not add layers to fix the problem.

many fine posts regarding stain on wood do a search.

[wood is good]

DO NOT WET SAND THE WOOD

That will ruin the wood.

You probably heard about wetting the wood and appying the dye, or something to that sort.

[ToddW]

Exiler,

Sounds like you just raised the grain a little. The dye or sealer cause the little whiskers that sand paper leaves behind to swell and stand up. Don't wet sand until after you've finished clear coating it!

Just take a 320 grit sanding pad or really fine paper, and very gently sand with the grain. Then dust it off and see if that solved the problem. It won't be shiny until it's cleared and buffed, but it should be smooth. After you do that, you could add another coat of sanding sealer to see if it looks shinier, but I don't know if I would, because the sealer might effect your dye if you wet it too much.

Best,

Todd

[exiler]

Thanks guys! I should clarify I didnt meant wet-sand the wood, i meant wet it a little so the grain raises, let dry, then sand smooth. Not sure if that's good advice or not. But it sounds like you're saying a little roughness after staining is normal about and after properly finishing it i'll get the look i'm after.

[Quarter]

i meant wet it a little so the grain raises, let dry, then sand smooth.

Thats referred to as raising the grain and is good to do before the dye goes on.

[Drak]

What you're experiencing is perfectly normal, there is nothing to worry about.

If you don't raise the grain and nip the edges before dying, this is what happens.

I rarely ever do that myself, so don't sweat it.

I would recommend giving it a REAL LIGHT FEATHER SAND with 320 or 400,

all you want to do is clip the rough edges off the raised grain.

Do not press down with your sandpaper, just real lightly go over it to clip the tops of the grain.

Real light, real fast, shouldn't take more than 1 minute to do what you need to do.

Then just proceed as you have.

You won't see any real gloss until you have a LOT of clear coats on it.

Having said all that, w/o pics to look at, I can't tell that you actually did do the dye job properly,

but I'll take your word for it that everything on that end is fine for the moment.

Or you could throw up a pic or two.

[exiler]

Welllll I think at this point I'm in too deep to do anything about it if the dye isnt right, so really I'd rather not know about it

But here's a couple pics. The first one is before any lacquer and the second one is after a couple coats of sealer. The flash kind of drowns out the burst, but in real life it's noticeably darker around the edge.

stain 1

stain 2

[westhemann]

I think it looks pretty nice...very nice craftsmanship,only things I am iffy on are the color of that redish piece in the middle(don't think it matches anything) and the fretboard seems a bit far away from the body,though I do understand you may want that for fret access...

I notice your blueprints..is that a standard neck position for that SG?

And I would use black hardware...but that is just me.

[Drak]

Wow, pics always tell so much more than a typical post.

For starters, for someone who apparently doesn't know a lot about finishing yet,

your dye job looks superb. Really really nice job there from the looks of it.

I would not do a single thing that would compromise that finish in any way yet.

Second, I agree with you, the difference between the first pic and the second surprised me,

I expected to see a lot more difference than I see so far, they almost look the same to me.

Lets look at a few things...

I would imagine it is a lacquer-based sealer?

Please tell me specifically about what product you are using.

Is it sanding sealer?

Spray can?

Applying it wet enough (spraying close enough) for penetration?

What does it look like as you are spraying it?

Does it look wet when you shoot it on and dries to the appearance in your pics,

or does it always look just like it does, even when initially wet with the sealer?

This is a long shot, but if you are spraying too far away from the piece and moving too fast, the product can hit the piece 'dry' and not penetrate into the wood, and could cause it to look 'dry' with no pop. Just one possibility.

How did you apply the stain BTW?

[exiler]

Wow, pics always tell so much more than a typical post.

For starters, for someone who apparently doesn't know a lot about finishing yet,

your dye job looks superb. Really really nice job there from the looks of it.

I would not do a single thing that would compromise that finish in any way yet.

Second, I agree with you, the difference between the first pic and the second surprised me,

I expected to see a lot more difference than I see so far, they almost look the same to me.

Lets look at a few things...

I would imagine it is a lacquer-based sealer?

Please tell me specifically about what product you are using.

Is it sanding sealer?

Spray can?

Applying it wet enough (spraying close enough) for penetration?

What does it look like as you are spraying it?

Does it look wet when you shoot it on and dries to the appearance in your pics,

or does it always look just like it does, even when initially wet with the sealer?

This is a long shot, but if you are spraying too far away from the piece and moving too fast, the product can hit the piece 'dry' and not penetrate into the wood, and could cause it to look 'dry' with no pop. Just one possibility.

How did you apply the stain BTW?

I'm using stewmac aerosol sanding sealer lacquer. Still haven't made the leap to a spray gun. I've put on about half a can (4 coats) in the second pic, and havent done any sanding yet. I spray it about a foot away, maybe a little more. It looks normal enough when im spraying it, though I havent really noticed how wet it looks, i'll have to pay more attention next time i put a coat on. Maybe I need to put it on a little heavier to wet it out.

For the stain, I wiped on a couple coats over the whole body, then sprayed the burst a little darker with an airbrush.

EDIT: I think it's coming around. I took it outside and it looks better than it did with the camera flash. Here's a picture: stain 3. You can probably tell the wings arent actually glued on yet.. my last big challenge is figuring out how to do that without screwing up the finish, but I think I have a plan. They're pegged for alignment, so I'm only worried about glue dripping out, but I think some low tack masking tape along the edges will catch most of it, and I can wipe off the rest with a wet rag (hence putting the sealer on before glueing) Then do the remaining coats of lacquer once it's glued.

westhemann: I'm not really sold on the wood selection either... it's supposed to be tulipwood, though it doesnt look like any of the pictures of tulipwood i've seen online. (bought the wood online without seeing the actual pieces) I was expecting it to be yellower with a purplish grain that would match the purpleheart. The whole thing kind of doesnt look as good as it did in my head, and if i was starting over now I'd do some things different, but whatever. Seeing as it's my first time I didnt wanna get too picky since I figured there was a good chance i'd completely screw it up and have to start over anyway. The neck position matches the plans (67 sg), though I may have carved the horns a little deeper than they say, but it's mostly according to plan.

Edited June 14, 2009 by exiler

[Drak]

Well, take this as my opinion only.

Personally, I don't see the need for sanding sealer at all.

Sanding sealer is designed to fill pores a little faster than normal, and make sanding easier, that's it.

With a dyed figured Maple top, I see no reason at all to even use the stuff.

I would go straight to lacquer now.

IF you sprayed the first coat or two too dry, then to solve the problem, you need to spray the next coat rather heavy and wet, because what you're trying to do is re-melt the entire finish down to the first coat to allow it to sink into the wood pores and 'wet' the look.

That is ONLY if you sprayed the first coat too dry, and I'm not saying you did, I am not trying to get you in any deeper than you are (if at all), just saying that is what you need to do IF the first coat went on too dry, it isn't about just making the next coat wetter, it's about re-melting the entire finish so the first coat remelts and sinks in like it was supposed to.

I say this with caution because if you try to do that, you have to be extremely careful not to get runs or sags and take yourself backwards.

The reason it looks dry MAY BE because of the sanding sealer. I haven't used that stuff in over 10 years, so I forget what it looks like when dry.