Help With My Idea

[verhoevenc]

Ok, so I'm wanting to expand on the Teuffel birdfish and the Toone Unineck designs. I like the idea of swappable parts... but dislike what I see in Tueffel/Toone's work as disregard for the body's tone impact. Teuffel has those bars... which I don't think is enough, and Toone makes these airy, no-sided things for his Uninecks that I can't see as doing anything tonally. Therefore, I want to make swappable bodies and neck where the body actually plays a role! And I figured, why not make swappable pickup assemblies too then (hence the questions about CAT5 wire, routing, etc.)?!?! But I've hit a sort of wall though... I want these swappable parts to work with both my doublecut and singlecut shapes.

When you carve the neck to fit a singlecut it looks great:

However, when you throw it into a doublecut you have a PRS sized bleh heel! And you can't carve it in any further... or when you throw it back into the singlecut it won't work:

Technically this works and isn't any worse than a lot of production guitars... however, I'm not a factory and this isn't a defeat I'd like to accept. So I came up with another idea. If I continued the carve INTO the pocket and squared off the heel inside the body, then it wouldn't matter what the shape of the body is, there will NEVER be a heel! So the neck carve would continue into the body, and then once hidden, square off for bolting on like this pocket shows (it has to go in at least a 1/4" I'd guess so that the short endgrain pieces surrounding the carve don't break off):

As a side note, the bathtub route is to accommodate all the different pickup assemblies. You'd swap out square "pickguards" with a simple plug in/plug out process. These show it a bit better.

HOWEVER, this leads to yet ANOTHER problem. The neck area around the last fret/neck pickup is EXTREMELY weak looking!!!

So it seems that down any path I take a run into SOME sort of problem. Does anyone have any ideas that may help this heel issue? Feel free to tackle/talk about either option if you have fix ideas for one or the other.

Chris

[WezV]

very interesting idea,

First i think its worth noting that many players are extremely happy with a PRS style heel. I agree its good to aim for more (less) but dont let the persuit to be rid of it stop a good idea

definately looks too weak to do your idea in wood,

obviously things can be moved, fret access can be sacrificed and pickup placement comprimised to get it to work but i am guessing thats not what you want

so how about an aluminium frame for the inner body section - just have to sort out how that attaches to the neck then (as if thats an easy task ) I have an idea for that, but need to think about it a bit more as its rather vague at the moment

then you still have the issue of actually atatching the parts in a way that a) they are easy to seperate and reassemble, and the tonal benefits/impacts of the materials used is not lost

[Prostheta]

Perhaps this is moving out of the some of traditional styles you are attempting to maintain, but what about pickup modelling and/or ultra low profile pickups? Either of these would leave more meat in the tub.

As mentioned - a small amount of remaining heel shouldn't be a problem to most players, plus it'll help "maintain tone". IIRC, aren't PRS' with the larger heel vaunted as having better tone and less dead spots or something? Not a big PRS guy ;-)

Edited March 31, 2010 by Prostheta

[sam_c]

if youve got the ability to cut/route the concave neck profile into the body, then why not do that on the single cut body shape only and keep the flat heel section of the neck the same as in your single cut neck shape? if that makes sense???

so for the double cut version you have a slight flat heel at the neck/body joint and it will give you more wood/thickness which you need in the weak spot.

for the single cut version, you have what is shown in your 2nd drawing, but with only a slight area of heel on the treble side. You could then route the body with the concave neck profile and let it wrap around the neck. You may need some kind of thin compressible material in there so theres no gaps and it feels solid. It would also keep the neck free from scratches if you did want to swap it over to a double cut body.

I hope that made some sense, I can picture it in my head but I doubt Id be able to draw it

[verhoevenc]

Sam, I like your idea! However, I'll be doing this by hand, not CNC, and there's no WAY I'll be able to accurately carve the pocket for an area of neck that transitions from carve to heel. The only reason I'm able to do it the way about without a CNC is that the carve is relatively similar as it extends into the body. That way I can rough it out, and then "floss" with sandpaper to perfect it just like you do with alignment of acoustic heels... or fitting archtop bridges to carves.

Prostheta, I did think about modeling, but it kinda of goes against the ideas I had for this project. I was initially sparked by the idea of choice. Hence multiple necks, bodies, pickup assemblies, etc. If I go down the road of low profile, or modeling, I essentially limit my choices. If I build these I'd like for people to be able to go "that's sweet, but I want my pickup assemblies to be two bareknuckle humbuckers, and then another one with 3 Lollar P90s." Modeling gives me the "classic" pickup tones and that's it (and I might as well buy a Variax then), and low profile pickups, there aren't many out there.

WezV, I had thought about compromising already, and like you assumed, had thought against it. That said, people do like the PRS heels... and they are said to be more "toney." Heck, even I toured with one before i started building! So no, it's not the end of the world... but if there's a way around it, why not?

As for the metal idea... I am lost lol.

Chris

[Woodenspoke]

From the pictures my first thought is stability and how much wood is in that joint and where would it break. Yes I agree the single cut will work for this very reason but the double cut neck looks weak.

I believe PRS modified the heel design (made the heel longer)to eliminate unwanted vibration.

[sam_c]

I would have thought CNC would be the preferable option for this type of stuff, not just for the complexity of the routing but also to guaruntee that all the parts you make will be interchangeable with each other.

I guess you could keep a reference set of parts to make sure that any new ones you build are consistent.

[Workingman]

Since you are starting with a very out of the box idea I hope this one is not to far out. How about having a neck that is set up for the double cut and a bolt on heal that is put on the neck when you are putting it on the single cut?

[Johnny Foreigner]

[Johnny Foreigner]

or...

excuse the very quick and sloppy photoshopping...

[Metalhead28]

@ Johnny Foreigner - If he doesn't want the unnecessary extra heel - I think the first picture only makes it worse (and also doesn't look too classy). On the single cut pic - you would either still have a heel there, or you'd have the carved away edge of the neck butting up against the body, which would look kind of silly in my opinion.

Honestly, I'd probably just make single cut and double cut necks seperately.

You could make generic necks with a large heel that were interchangable if someone really needed to do that.

[WezV]

yeah, PRS market the long heel on tone reasons... reducing dead spots and cutting unwanted vibration are really similar issues

WezV, I had thought about compromising already, and like you assumed, had thought against it. That said, people do like the PRS heels... and they are said to be more "toney." Heck, even I toured with one before i started building! So no, it's not the end of the world... but if there's a way around it, why not?

As for the metal idea... I am lost lol.

Chris

Just tells you what i have been looking at recently. Some thin bodies tele's where the maker has put a metal frame in the middle to add strength to the overly thin neck join.... which to me seems like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut

http://saguaroguitars.com/tombstone.html

in your case i imagined something similar, put rather than the aluminium going under the neck it could go into the neck part way up the heel leaving the underside round. A aluminium frame in the middle would also help make things more modular

here is a rough side profile. The neck could slot into the frame before being secured by a bolt or two - just done to generate discussion and ideas

[sam_c]

you could just reduce the flat area of the heel so that you are able to get a a shelf for the singlecut body to sit on and more of the normal neck profile shape further up the neck. This should be a better compromise when its used with a doublecut body... a bit like this maybe?? the thick line would be where the body joins the neck.

[verhoevenc]

Actually yeah. That does work out really well. I'll obviously have to make a new template with the shape change for the singlecut... but all the changes will be behind the neck, so really it doesn't change much at all.

Chris

[verhoevenc]

But yeah... I'm stupid, I can't believe I didn't think of that... it's like one of those "duh" things lol. And I've seen it all the time like with Scott French:

http://www.scottfrench.com/i/Finished%20Cu...0Guitar/98_back

Chris

[Johnny Foreigner]

But yeah... I'm stupid, I can't believe I didn't think of that... it's like one of those "duh" things lol. And I've seen it all the time like with Scott French:

http://www.scottfrench.com/i/Finished%20Cu...0Guitar/98_back

Chris

that's what my second picture was kindof getting at.

[Metalhead28]

Honestly, I think that would be even more awkward on the double cut than just a larger, more generically shaped heel.

Like this:

My thumb would always be be resting right up there on that sharp corner and the rest of the oddly shaped contouring would just look kind of funny to me.

[Bionic Dave]

you could just reduce the flat area of the heel so that you are able to get a a shelf for the singlecut body to sit on and more of the normal neck profile shape further up the neck. This should be a better compromise when its used with a doublecut body... a bit like this maybe?? the thick line would be where the body joins the neck.

I thought of this ideaand it will work. I also thought of this. use the design you have for the single and when put onto the double you can just add the rest of the heel via a biscut joint or Magnets on both the neck heel and the second piece. the magnets in the neck would be hind when on the single cut body.

Just my thought.

[Billy Bones]

I have been thinking about this too. I wanted to have one neck that worked for singles, doubles and sg's. No good answers yet. The heel is fairly integral to the instrument and it is totally different from one to the next.

If you've spent any time in a repair shop, you've seen a million Gibson specials that snapped their necks off because there was not enough meet left after routing in the neck pickup. I think the way around that is a deepl thick rennin or a thin profile pickup. Neither of which work for you.

If you are hand building these guitars, you way have to build them all for single cuts and then shape the double cut. When that comes up.

Is this because you wann to have a bunch of necks on the wall and grab one when you need one? You could rough in the single cut and then finish the heel when you know what type guitar it's going on.

Is it mainly for the concept of universality?

[verhoevenc]

All concept of universality.

Chris

[Cobalt Fall]

Ok - i hope this idea comes across without a diagram......

I think your concept whereas the neck extends under the pickup cavity is a cool solution to what you are trying to accomplish. But that joint forward of the pickup cavity is definitely the weak point, as you already pointed out.

But....

What if you WIDENED the neck just inside the body line, and also reduced the area of the body that is contoured to the neck. Let me try to be more descriptive.....

First, you should be able to thicken that weak point by having less of the body contoured to the neck. In your rendering, it looks that the "tunnel" contoured to the neck is, maybe, 1.5" to 2" long at the bass side, and a little less at the treble. What about reducing that? Make that "tunnel" as short as possible - maybe even down to 1/4" on the treble side. That'll beef up that weak joint significantly.

Another idea (one that can be used in conjunction with the above concept) would be to widen the entire joint area of the neck. Think of it as a "paddle", if you will. Make the entire area that lies inside the body as wide (or wider) than the pickup cavity. Again, this will beef up that weak joint. The body area of the neck could even contain the entire routing area for pickups. Think of a neck with a wide "boat" at the end for the pickups, instead of the "dip" you have now.

As a side "benefit", it may allow the neck and pickups to become one assembly (pickups mounted directly to the widened "paddle" portion of the neck). If the neck screws could be accessible without removing the pickups entirely (perhaps the "paddle" is wider than the pickups, and the area is simply covered with a trim plate of sorts), the whole neck/pickup assembly could be moved to a different body (your plug-n-play compatibility) fairly easily.

I hope at least some if this is clear - if not, I *might* be able to pshop something......