Something Different

[2005palehorse]

http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/2005palehorse/

After a year and $700 it's finally finished. Now I can have the comfort of a Strat with the looks/ sound of a LP.

Here's the tech notes. I'll take their advice and make improvements later.

GuitarPaintGuys - Technical Evaluation

Project: Custom Calisto Electric Guitar

Customer: Tom

Post Evaluation Completed: 11/23/10

Description: Post finish assembly, wiring, set up, instrument adjustments.

Tech Notes:

.010 - .046 Strings were used. All base adjustments and set up completed, with

moderate issues noted.

High strings G,B,e, were extremely susceptible to variations, either flat or

sharp, contingent to neck angle and truss rod adjustments. This variation was

stabilized by way of mild neck relief, and verified corrected by way of

electronic tuner, and extensive playability tests.

Several related issues re-appeared, but more isolated to the high B, and

particularly, e, strings. These were again adjusted out, however, it is

possible that these minor issues may re-emerge, with the current setup.

We were somewhat limited in our final adjustments, due to bridge height in

relation to bridge pickup mounting height.

Saddle Height is near maximum. This was necessary to achieve playability of

the guitar after all truss rod adjustments were in tolerance.

Neck construction, relief, and angle, in relation to the bridge, are areas that

we would recommend improving. It is our opinion that a different type of bridge

and/or neck would allow better and more stable adjustments to be made with

respect to the guitar body.

Wiring was primarily a non issue:

Component Tests:

Master Volume: PASS

Master Tone: PASS

3 Way Blade: PASS

Neck PUP: PASS

Bridge PUP: PASS

Neck & Bridge Together: PASS

A standard .047µF Ceramic Capacitor is recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------

The bone nut was fitted and leveled in such a manner that combined with the face

angle of the headstock, string trees were not necessary.

However, a single "roller type" string tree was later added to the B and e

strings. This string tree was primarily used as a mild transitional control,

from a functional playability standpoint.

Ping Tuning machines were fitted to the guitar headstock, and torqued to

standard tension. Tuning machines operate smoothly and efficiently, with no

binding.

Final Thoughts, playability, sound:

Our test amplifier was a Peavey JSX - 2-12".

The completed guitar plays out well, considering the previously noted bridge and

neck observations.

There are no dead spots on the neck, notes and chords ring clear.

Guitar holds tune well. Harmonics ring clear.

The type of capacitor used does add a slight "muddiness" to the overall tone.

This is primarily evident on the clean channel. This does however, have a

unique "smoothing" effect, once a little overdrive is added.

The pickups are responsive, and seem to be naturally suited for classic rock,

blues, country, etc. They have a nice vintage PAF meets P-90 tone by

themselves, and they definitely bring a telecaster type "Twang" in the middle

position.

After about an hour of honest playing, everything from Ozzy to Chet Atkins, and

in between, this guitar is solid. Some minor improvements could enhance it

further, but this guitar is overall; officially "ready to rock!"

Edited December 5, 2010 by 2005palehorse

[Our Souls inc.]

It looks o.k. , but seems to have some design flaws.....

I'm referring to this part :

We were somewhat limited in our final adjustments, due to bridge height in

relation to bridge pickup mounting height.

Saddle Height is near maximum. This was necessary to achieve playability of

the guitar after all truss rod adjustments were in tolerance.

Neck construction, relief, and angle, in relation to the bridge, are areas that

we would recommend improving. It is our opinion that a different type of bridge

and/or neck would allow better and more stable adjustments to be made with

respect to the guitar body.

That just seems like a lot of $$ for a guitar that 'needs' bridge/saddle/pup/neck adjusting.........

Got any clips of its tone ?

[FireFly]

I think a good solution for the mentioned problems mentioned in Our Souls's post would be to address the depth of the neck pocket, and see if there's any angle needed to compensate after. From the discription of the problem, it appears that no neck angle is needed, as the action is too low.

I would route out the neck pocket so the neck sits lower in its slot. That way, you can keep the bridge that you're in love with, and the guitar keeps the charm that you like about it

[2005palehorse]

Yeah I was expecting some problems with the Ebay neck ($30 Chinese neck= junk). Warmoth quoted me $300 for a plain jane maple neck (their quality is really good but they are overpriced on everything). In a few months I'll send the guitar to a pro neck builder so a neck can be made that will work with the body/ bridge. It sounds like the neck pocket was not deep enough causing the fretboard to be higher and nearly out of reach of the saddles. It needs some tweaking but after buying electronics, hardware, body components and shipping, $700 added up pretty quickly.

I'm gonna' do a sound check on YOUTUBE and post a link on the forum for that.

I hoped the guitar would have turned out better but I think the majority of the problem is the cheap neck. The bridge was purchased from WARMOTH and is specifically for HB pickups (width).

Tom

[2005palehorse]

I agree (with all the above). Warmoth gets expensive when you start requesting finishing, thats when the cost of a neck gets in the $300 range. I could clear-coat at home but the 30 degree weather wouldn't work. This problem may be fixed by having a deeper neck pocket, shedding some wood from the neck (pocket side), or both.

Right now I'm considering getting in touch with a recommended "neck guy" and have a neck made that will work. I should send the whole guitar to the neck builder to be sure everything is right. This problem is my fault since I tried to go cheap with a major component that depends on precision.

I would really like to keep the "vintage" style bridge but I'm willing to change it also if its creating problems.

I bought a Russian made "oil" cap for this project and even that has seemed to "muddy" the sound. I may also change that later on.

As far as the neck problem, I need to set a budget for fixing the problem and stick with it. The guitar is "playable" in its current set-up but the neck issue is something that will have to be dealt with eventually.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and observations. If this project turns into a "money bucket" then I'll just leave it as-is.

Tom

[Tim37]

you can put a shim at the top of the neck pocket and i mean a very thin shim a buisness card cut down at most it will give the neck a little forward angle that should alow you to lower the sadles some.

also check out carvin i think a unfinished neck starts around 150 and they only charge a few bucks to finish it but be careful you can add on stuff and end up with a 500 dollar neck quick.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/guita....php?model=sc90

check out the top one

Edited December 5, 2010 by Tim37

[2005palehorse]

Thanks to all for the advice. The neck itself is creating some havoc (along with additional material in the neck pocket that must be removed for a better angle). I've looked at the Carvin catalog and their parts are better quality and more affordable than others I've seen. I like the blank headstock so I'm able to have any shape option I want.

This project has been a huge learning experience and I had asked the body maker to also do the neck but his shop wasn't offering necks. When joining two parts from different suppliers it's a coin toss to whether they'll mesh correctly (even if the parts are made to standard specs for that scale). In the future I would only buy body/ necks from the same source (maybe then they would be mated better).

I have been thinking of solutions for these areas that are causing problems so until the neck/ pocket can be addressed, could I shim the bridge a bit higher and make it easier for the saddles to do their job? I know its best to have the bridge mounted directly to the body top but if a hardwood was used (or even metal), then the bridge could meet the neck better.

I wished I could just "snap" my fingers and make the bridge plate X2 thick.

What would be the disadvantages to shim the bridge?

Thanks....Tom

[Juntunen Guitars]

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but the logical thing to do is to have the neck and then make the body, isn´t it? Or, stick to standard measurements like a Fender neck and use a pocket template for those specs. I don´t see joining the two parts from different makers as so much trouble...only if the body´s measurements have nothing to do with the neck´s.

(P.S. Amiee, did I use the verb correctly?)

I made the mistake on a couple guitars by not getting measurments right so I agree with you. Start with the neck because if you get one or two measurments just a hair off (which is not very hard to do) it can throw off a lot of the guitar so start with the neck and build around it.

[2005palehorse]

Being an engineering student (1st year), I've been "fed" the precision and detail proceedures so when I started this project and opted to "outsource" the work I knew the error factor was high (when multiple suppliers were involved). When more than one person/ company or supplier was providing parts that needed to match instead of a single shop, it would have been a miracle that things meshed perfectly.

I brought this up to the body maker (after being told that he wasn't making necks) and was told "regardless of where the neck comes from, as long as its to Fender scale (and curved heel), it will work. Tom these things are mass produced so much that it's no longer necessary to put much thought into it. My templates are the same that Fender uses and the Chinese probably also use the exact templates".

So, I was doubtful from the beginning that there would be zero problems because there are just too many variables. Is everybody using the same templates? Who's using metric or standard measurements? Is quality control doing their job?

Jim Riggs had done such a fantastic job on the body shape and contour but he's human and could be off a few thousanths of an inch. It really makes a difference. Making the body without seeing/ having the neck is over confidence in his abilities. If the neck is "out of spec tolerance", he could have adjusted the heel to avoid any joining problems. My choice in "vintage bridge" may have also caused it's placement to be "not exact" because everyone uses the four screw Strat bridge so the three screw plate takes some planning.

Anyway, whats done is done. I'll invest in a quality neck later and I may even have the neck built to fit the body (avoiding further pocket work). Mr. Riggs was unconcerned there would be any issues but he didn't factor that the Chinese neck would be "close to spec" but not exact.

When you deal with folks who are "subject matter experts", they are "numb" to any concerns after ??? years of experience. I wished it had gone better but the guitar is playable as-is but I'll probably spend more time adjusting rather than playing.

Tom

[Our Souls inc.]

Nothing personal , but even when I was just a teenager who used to throw guitars together from scrap parts - ANYTHING is possible if you give it some thought.....

Your issue ( to me ) sounds like a neck pocket issue.

Routed a bit deeper, your neck wouldn't sit so proud of the body, your saddles could go down and your pups too. I'd seriously give that pocket my attention. You can shim ( as Tim37 pointed out ) the front of the neck pocket to give the neck better angle or have a local luthier route it "right" for that neck.

What you have is a discredit to the body maker simply due to the fact that the neck pocket is so 'off'. - I'm an amatuer and I can get em right - a pro should have no problems......

Its a shame your first experience aint a great one, but keep at it. You'll find that elusive 'perfect' guitar.

[westhemann]

Don't over complicate it.You just need to deepen the neck pocket,just like Aimee said.

[Drak]

I'm relatively sure the builder made the pocket at standard thickness, so he can't be blamed THAT much.

In comparison, the purchase of a $30.00 neck was, to me, the dealkiller.

Unbelievable.

[Our Souls inc.]

I'm relatively sure the builder made the pocket at standard thickness, so he can't be blamed THAT much.

In comparison, the purchase of a $30.00 neck was, to me, the dealkiller.

Unbelievable.

Drak - the $$ the neck cost shouldn't be considered. At all... If the heel on the neck is THAT thick , it could easily be thinned out.... but if you look at the photobucket pics, the neck pocket does look pretty shallow. ( my guess is 1/2" )

Tom - any chance of getting some dimensions on that pocket? There are several ways to skin this cat.... and we all have knives.

[marksound]

The neck pocket looks shallower than 5/8" to me. It could be an optical illusion, but ...

click

It's possible that it's a combination of a slightly shallower pocket and a thicker than normal neck heel. Slight adjustments can be made to both to make it better.

As far as the price/country of origin of the neck, IMO it shouldn't matter too much. As long as it's straight and the truss rod works, any neck can be made playable. At least until it warps.

Assembling a guitar from parts is not hard to do. The body maker should have requested that the neck come to him for test fitting before the body was shipped.

My two cents, now 50% off.

[WezV]

anybody who has done parts projects knows how false the term 'standard dimensions' can become. this becomes a lot more true when working to a tight budget with cheaper parts. The trick is making them all fit - and its not that hard as long as you start off with all the parts

now since your luthier told you that you only needed to worry about scale length and end of neck shape i would have expected him to match pocket depth to the neck - but if he didnt have the neck it would have been hard to do

[westhemann]

As far as the price/country of origin of the neck, IMO it shouldn't matter too much.

I think the point Drak is trying to make(which seems to fly right over your heads so far ) is that spending $700 on a guitar body and putting a $30 neck on it is just "unbelievable".And he has a point.

[Our Souls inc.]

As far as the price/country of origin of the neck, IMO it shouldn't matter too much.

I think the point Drak is trying to make(which seems to fly right over your heads so far ) is that spending $700 on a guitar body and putting a $30 neck on it is just "unbelievable".And he has a point.

That he does, but I've just recently sold a Mighty Mite strat neck on the 'bay for 31 bucks, so a $30 neck just might BE a good neck. < That one was.

More unbelievable to me is spending the other $600 plus on a "custom" body that wasn't built to fit theneck or accomodate a hardtail bridge.........

[FireFly]

He could have saved 15% if he switched to Geico.

[Tim37]

the reason i sugested a shim was so when he did git a good neck he could make any adjustments that are needed to the body to make it fit at that point. if he was to rout the neck pocket deeper then guy a good neck for it that neck might sit too low.

btw if you are a engineering student i sugest buiding your own. (im convinced that all engineers should have to actualy do some of the work they come up with maybe then they would grow a couple of brain cells)

[2005palehorse]

Wow, this got heated quick!!!

The body was $175 (if I remember correctly). By the time paint, hardware, electronics, shipping, etc etc....the tally came to $700 (combined total). The good news is that the body maker (J. Riggs) is willing to re-examine the body and make any additional cuts that are needed. I sent him pics along with the tech notes and his recommendations were to not try to reshape the neck heel (my possible suggestion) but that he can take additional material from the pocket and use shorter mounting screws.

I like everyone who commented about this. You're passionate about guitars and I admire that.

I have also contacted a pro neck maker and he said he could look over the cheap neck and (possibly) salvage it by tweaking and adjusting. He mentioned that even if the tuning machines were a "sloppy" install, that alone produces problems. He even offered to make the same neck for $110 (if needed).

It would be worth shipping to me to send the guitar to these guys and let them work some "voodoo" on it.

For this guitar I'm opting to let more experienced hands to fix the gremlins. I do want to experiment and tinker with a homemade guitar in the future but need some woodworking tools first. At my skill level its likely that I'll make matters worse to fix the problems myself.

With the feedback from this forum, I've gained an understanding to what the problems are and how to deal with them. I'm close to having a quality guitar but I'll have to follow through with it.

Maybe I am infected with the Engineer sickness (Engineers consult with specific experts and assign them to fix the problem). "Manage the process for the expected product" is what were told (and I think it lessens the trainee for it). I think guitar building will become a hobby for me after school is finished and I can afford a garage/ shop + tools. I should do these things myself but school consumes everything I would need to take on a project solo.

I'll continue addressing the problem areas on this guitar and post a follow-up with the outcome. It has been a learning experience that I can apply to future problems.

I do wished Mr. Riggs had wanted to have the neck for insuring all would fit accordingly. I think at that stage he may have seen that the Strat bridge saddles was going to strain to clear the P/U's and fretboard. Its a minor fix and I still think he did a good job regardless.

Tom

Edited December 8, 2010 by 2005palehorse

[Tim37]

seriously deepening the neck pocket is insanely easy on a guitar with no neck angle

all you need is

1 piece of wood for a template

1 roll of double stick tape.

1 laminate trim bit

1 pattern bit

1 router

rough cut the neck pocket in the wood for the template, then tape it to the top of the guitar, now use the laminate trim bit to follow the neck pocket, now use the pattern bit to cut the neck pockt deeper.

[Muzz]

seriously deepening the neck pocket is insanely easy on a guitar with no neck angle

all you need is

1 piece of wood for a template

1 roll of double stick tape.

1 laminate trim bit

1 pattern bit

1 router

rough cut the neck pocket in the wood for the template, then tape it to the top of the guitar, now use the laminate trim bit to follow the neck pocket, now use the pattern bit to cut the neck pockt deeper.

Yep that would work, or just use a template following bit that is shorter than the neck pocket is deep and use the existing neck pocket as a template, and deepen as required. Just put some contact on the guitar to stop the router base scratching it.

[marksound]

As far as the price/country of origin of the neck, IMO it shouldn't matter too much.

I think the point Drak is trying to make(which seems to fly right over your heads so far ) is that spending $700 on a guitar body and putting a $30 neck on it is just "unbelievable".And he has a point.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, but it's really not necessary. You know, because it's obvious.

[2005palehorse]

Update...

Mr. Riggs has had a chance to inspect the guitar and will deepen the neck pocket for a proper fit. He mentioned that the paint shop had sanded a lot of material from the top of the guitar which worsened the flaw. He's offered to correct the pocket at no cost to me but suggested a proper set up be completed by a local shop thats near him. Both the neck and bridge are within tolerence and they have been excluded as contributing to the problems.

I know the Chinese made neck was a foolish decision but the body, paint and hardware had my budget stretched to its limits so the idea was to get the guitar playable and upgrade later. After seeing the neck in its finished form, I couldn't see any quality problems and will keep the neck unless it develops issues. Both the paint shop and body luthier have stated the neck is solid, frets well and is holding the position set by the truss rod. I expect if any of the neck material starts to fail its likely to be the fret wire (unless it has a standard percentage of hard nickel).

For now I seem to have a decent neck on my guitar but after some months/ years we'll see how durable it is. I'll spend the bucks and get a proper neck if the "cheapie" fails.

I imagine rock maple is the same the world over so as long as the truss rod works as I need it and the frets don't wear abnormally, I should get my investment's worth.

Sometimes your budget will dictate your direction.

Tom