RickBlacker Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Hey all.. This is my first body build. I've assembled guitars and modified bodies in the past, but never done a complete build from scratch on a body. Wanted to show my status so far and get some input on the neck joint area. As of now, I have the body created and cut out. I still need to sand up the sides back and front. I bought the blueprint off ebay. I'm building the shape of the body exactly. Having said that I am going to take some liberties on this. I'm not using a "true" Explorer neck. I'm using a Peavey Tracer neck that I bought off ebay. I've cleaned it and refretted it. Turned out nice. Can't wait to see how it turned out once I get it on the guitar. Also another liberty that I may take is, only one pickup and no tone control. I'm personally not a fan of tone controls. I never use them except to turn them all the way up. Because this is not a true Gibson Explorer neck I'm going to have to be a little bit careful. If you look at the first picture, I've indicated where, according to the plans I would have needed to end the neck pocket. Given that this is not a set neck, that would not leave me much support. So, I've extended the pocket out a bit, in fact a full 1-1/4". This gives me the same amount of support that the neck originally had. I can tell from the coloration on the back of the neck where it has been placed before. The bridge I'm using is also non standard Gibson. This is a Schaller bridge. I chose it because it has the fine tuners on it. Really like that. So, in reality, this is more of a basturdized version of an Explorer. But, that's ok it's what I was going for. I hope this does not offend any purists out there. Anyway, any feedback is GREATLY appreciated. I'd like to start working on the neck pocket this weekend. Edited January 7, 2011 by RickBlacker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 you can extend it as far as you want - but carve and shape it so it doesnt look so long. you can remove quite a bit without loosing the extra strength you are gaining by having the extra length Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickBlacker Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I had a feeling it was ok to extend it out. Also, in case it was not obvious, that is my plexiglass template sitting on top of the guitar body. Two follow up questions. 1) I see a lot of necks where one side of the neck has more body to rest against. Up by the low E string. Given the fact that I'm not doing a set neck, should I extend some of the body? I got to thinking about that the other day. I'd even consider scabbing in some extra wood there to thicken up the amount of support I could give it. I know this would look super ugly, however, I'm going to be painting this guitar. My maple top is not very pretty, not going to put a nicer veneer on it. 2) The neck I purchased already has mounting screw holes on it. The neck is maple. However, I already have some oak dowel. Is there any problem if I bore out the existing screw holes and plug them with my oak dowel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 A set neck will give you much better upper register access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickBlacker Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Right, but, I like these peavey tracer necks. very thin and play well. At least for me they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 ...so copy the profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Souls inc. Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 A set neck will give you much better upper register access. Really?!?! Tell that to Ibanez....... Honestly, you're doing great from what I can see. you seem to be aware of the little minutia over having the neck waaaaay out of the body where fret access is easy Vs.having it set inside a bit where you'll have to reach for those last couple of frets. Just to make it even funnier - That LP up there is only 22 frets, the Ibby is 24, with better access. Go-o-o-o , bolt on !! You can use any bridge/pup combo you want if you plan it out first. Good luck, and happy building. quick edit : the holes can be filled and doweled, but you can always make a paper template of the neck heel with holes, then transfer it over to your neck pocket and drill matching holes. No new neck holes to drill. Or dowel and re-drill, just make sure you don't go through the neck..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 An LP is not a good example of a well designed set neck for upper fret access,now is it?You can get great access with any style,but bolt on guitars tend to have a bulkier heel than what you can get with neck through or a good set neck.I used to play Ibanez bolt ons exclusively,because in the 80s and early 90s it was impossible to get a neck through for less than a couple of grand...then Ibanez came out with the RGT 42 and I bought one and fell in love with the better access...because of the less bulky heel. Then I started to buy only neck through guitars,and that is what I made at first too,but upon becoming a member here I learned about carving set neck heels to get the same access,but because it is a set neck it allows you to build the body and neck separate,and gives you more options on body and neck wood ratios..so I started building them. Now ESP and several others have been making all access set necks for years...so give up on this vs that and forget about upper fret access as an excuse for anything...because you can get it with any type of neck joint...just build what you like for whatever reason. I like set necks...because it saves wood and I don't like the bulky heel,which even when it is not in the way it still bugs me...might be a mental thing,but whatever.Nobody has to make excuses for what they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 A set neck will give you much better upper register access. Really?!?! Tell that to Ibanez....... Haha! Good one. Yes but you chose the wosrt (Les Paul) and the best (Ibanez AANJ). The problem is that the neck that the OP wants to use is not an AANJ. The set neck on my Explorer gives me great upper register access and is profile exactly the way I want it. This is a 24 fret neck: @ Wes: How do you figure a set neck saves wood? A bolt on uses less wood the way I make them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Saves wood over a neck through.Rather it allows less neck wood and allows you to run a one piece body of any wood you choose.It isn't better,it is just different. No "wood" advantage or disadvantage over a bolt on...And if you think you are using less wood in a bolt on than a set neck,then you are doing your set necks in a wasteful manner.The only difference between a set neck and a bolt on is glue vs bolts..I make my set necks much like a bolt on neck.. But I still don't get why you guys are still going on about one joint being better than another? By the way.I know from experience that if you run the neck that far out of the body(the explorer),it puts the nut end uncomfortably far away from you...designing a proper guitar is give and take,as you all know,so why pretend otherwise?...you can modify your explorer to have full access to the 24th fret,but it will involve a deeper cutaway or pushing the neck further out... I have been working on a "proper"(for me) explorer design for a few years now..built the first prototype or whatever you want to call it,and came up with a very workable design Really not much different than yours,except I altered the body shape to have a deeper cutaway,among other things,while still keeping a decent amount of wood around the bass side of the neck...25.5" scale,and 24 frets,which obviously I have complete access to..but the nut is about the same distance away from your body(you the player,not the guitar body) as a 27" scale baritone ESP F I used to have...in other words,it is not as comfortable to play at the nut as a real Gibson Explorer....and since my goal is to have better access but not at the sake of playability at the other end,the next one(prototype 2) is going to have the upper 2 frets slightly further into the body...in other words,access to the 24th fret is going to be similar as access to the 22nd on a real Gibson explorer,and then I will see how well that plays...I started building them at 25.5 because I felt at the time that the extra room between the upper frets made it easier to play there,but since then I started using less wide fretwire(more Gibson sized),so the truth is I no longer feel the need for the 25.5 scale..but I am already in the middle of that one,so I will finish it out as is...the next one(#3 explorer) will be 24.75",because to me,the closer the nut is to my body,the more "a part of me" the guitar feels.May not be so for everybody,but who cares about everyone else's opinions of my preferences? So some day soon I will have a good design of a comfortable explorer with full access to the upper frets...but it is going to be a set neck most likely.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickBlacker Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) Wow, those are some beautiful Explorers! Very nice! Someone asked, why don't I create a set neck? Well, to be honest, this is my first body build, my guitar building skills are not yet up to par to build a neck. Someday, but not yet. You all have brought up some great points that I've not thought of. Probably the one that strikes me most is the thought of pushing the neck out further so as to have better access to the lower registry. For me, I'm not as worried about the upper registry, I'd rather have the nut closer to my body. I'm not a tall guy with long arms, so the closer the nut to me, the better. Edited January 8, 2011 by RickBlacker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 You can use any joint you like.One is not better than the other..just better for somebody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Wes - I guess that you just do a set neck with a 3/4" thick tenon? I like my tenon to be a little beefier. Personal preference I guess. All I meant to say with a set neck is that you wouldn't need a big heel/support behind it if it was properly designed VS the bolt on neck the OP want to use. Of course, you could make it an AANJ but if you're making a neck, might as well just glue it in. To the OP, you really should consider making your own neck. They're not all that complex. Just take your time and start with a good template. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 here is my 'all access' explorer. Its another 25.5" scale 24 fretter - but with the explorer pro body shape - just about 90% of the original the neck may not be as completely free of the body as some, but i dont really find it needs to be - when i have gone that way its felt like it needed more frets, i guess i like having to reach a little for the last one this one has a set neck tenon that extends to the pickup cavity, and a 5 piece laminate neck blank - its an incredibly solid feeling guitar, but not too heavy and still quite ergonomic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Wes - I guess that you just do a set neck with a 3/4" thick tenon? I like my tenon to be a little beefier. Personal preference I guess. Yeah..3/4" tenon...I did tests with set necks on guitars that did not come out too well and checked the neck joint with a 4 lb sledge and found that all were very good,regardless of type of glue...more than enough strength..so that really helped me stop worrying about them as much.But I do set them deep and run a neck angle to really sink it in there. Still,on the ones coming up I am going to use a slightly thicker tenon and carry it into the neck pickup cavity,because they are going to be thin bodies..I really have to work out the design a bit though,because I ran into a lot of room issues on my latest super thin...namely it is hard to place a battery(easy solution..use passives instead) and the standard Gibson 3 way toggle won't fit in the upcoming ones...so I need to switch to the mini fat toggle...but I really like the looks of that one,so no loss... To the OP, you really should consider making your own neck. They're not all that complex. That is true...building the neck is really the most rewarding part of the guitar...heck,I don't even use templates on mine...but I did make my first guitar with a Carvin neck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yeah..3/4" tenon...I did tests with set necks on guitars that did not come out too well and checked the neck joint with a 4 lb sledge and found that all were very good,regardless of type of glue...more than enough strength..so that really helped me stop worrying about them as much.But I do set them deep and run a neck angle to really sink it in there. Still,on the ones coming up I am going to use a slightly thicker tenon and carry it into the neck pickup cavity,because they are going to be thin bodies..I really have to work out the design a bit though,because I ran into a lot of room issues on my latest super thin...namely it is hard to place a battery(easy solution..use passives instead) and the standard Gibson 3 way toggle won't fit in the upcoming ones...so I need to switch to the mini fat toggle...but I really like the looks of that one,so no loss... Yeah, I'm sure a 3/4" tenon works fine but as you say, if you run it into the pickup cavity, a thicker tenon is a good idea. Rhoads23 had an interesting idea where he took a bolt on neck, glued a small piece of wood on the base of the heel to extend it and thicken it somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yeah,but that doesn't do anything to increase strength over a 3/4" tenon,because you still have glue lines in the exact same spots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yeah,but that doesn't do anything to increase strength over a 3/4" tenon,because you still have glue lines in the exact same spots... but the glue line isn't the weak point, so if anything, Rhoads23's technique adds strength. I think we're taking this thread off topic though... sorry to the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Rhoads23's technique adds strength. No it really doesn't... Think about the mechanics of it,exactly...all you are doing is gluing an extra piece on the bottom of the neck,and then taking away the same amount of wood from the neck pocket...but it is exactly the same as if you just left the wood off the neck and routed a regular pocket.. No difference...you still have the same dimensions of the primary neck pocket,which is the three glue lines you hit first..the two on the sides and the one at the bottom of the neck itself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Rhoads23's technique adds strength. No it really doesn't... Think about the mechanics of it,exactly...all you are doing is gluing an extra piece on the bottom of the neck,and then taking away the same amount of wood from the neck pocket...but it is exactly the same as if you just left the wood off the neck and routed a regular pocket.. No difference...you still have the same dimensions of the primary neck pocket,which is the three glue lines you hit first..the two on the sides and the one at the bottom of the neck itself... it also depends on the body's neck heel. There are many factors in joint stregth, not just the shape of the tenon. Rhoads' technique involved an extension into the pickup cavity, which is why I suppose it would be stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Not to argue..but still,no,it is not any stronger,because if you never added that piece to the heel,the piece in the bottom of the cavity you routed out would still be there as part of the body instead of part of the neck. There is no way around it...you are not changing the mechanical strength of the joint that way.It is not any weaker,but not stronger either...the only time you gain a strength advantage in that way is if the body is,for example,basswood,and the neck wood was something much stronger...and the piece you glued on was of the same(stronger) material as the neck If that were the case,you would be spreading out the stronger wood over a larger area of the weaker wood,so it would in that particular case be stronger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devnull Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 To the OP: I'd suggest sculpting the heel like the AANJ. I always do that now and it seems plenty strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Souls inc. Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 When I made my post I was just squashing this tidbit of bad advice : A set neck will give you much better upper register access. ^^^ Thats a pretty bad generalization. So, I chose the best neck joint I could think of against the first pic of a setneck I found. Worst case scenario? sure. But when people come along looking for advice, it's not good to make such a broad statement. No parameters were given ,only set Vs. bolt . besides, the OP already stated he was using a bolt on......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 When I made my post I was just squashing this tidbit of bad advice : A set neck will give you much better upper register access. ^^^ Thats a pretty bad generalization. So, I chose the best neck joint I could think of against the first pic of a setneck I found. Worst case scenario? sure. But when people come along looking for advice, it's not good to make such a broad statement. No parameters were given ,only set Vs. bolt . besides, the OP already stated he was using a bolt on......... The two examples you gave are bad. Why? Because one is 24 fret and the other is 22 frets. I can build a 22 fret neck with better access using a set nek vs a bolt on. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I can build a 22 fret neck with better access using a set nek vs a bolt on. That's all. I agree with that...The part of the body that meets the heel will be roughly the same,but the extra wood needed to handle the screw pressure doesn't allow you to thin the bottom of the bolt on pocket nearly as much. Ibanez does a good job,but on a bolt on Ibanez my thumb still hits the heel at the upper frets..it doesn't on my set necks. Of course,you can redesign the bolt on to bolt in to the neck pickup cavity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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