kpcrash Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I was brought an Ibanez Wizard neck off of a late 80's RG model. It appears "someone" - the owner swears it wasn't him. Overtightened the truss rod to the point that it snapped the neck behind the scarf making a perfect W shape with the two holes for the FR nut. I probably should have taken a picture because it was truly a clean W. Anyway - I did the proper gentle cleaning of the wound with some sanding cord - just to get the fine splinters out and have already glued/clamped this back together. It has cured now for about 36 hours. So my question is - does anyone see a problem of my re-attaching the neck (BTW - the fretboard popped complete off when the break happened) with no fretboard and a titebond-ed joint and adding low E and high E to verify the joint? Another thought I had was to possibly add 2 thin pieces of fiberglass cloth along the length of the neck (similar to what model airplane hobbyists use) or would that even make a difference. To clarify, the fiberglass cloth would be sandwiched between the FB and the neck. Broken headstocks aren't usually repaired that way (to my knowledge) but since this guy has asked me to go ahead and replace the FB with one he is ordering, I'd like to make sure it doesn't snap again. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Stand on the neck for 1 min. If it breaks, the repair is no good. As long you you don't weigh too much (over 175lbs), it should be a good test. One thing you could do to add strength, is fill the nut bolts with epoxy and use top mount screws instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterblastor Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I was brought an Ibanez Wizard neck off of a late 80's RG model. It appears "someone" - the owner swears it wasn't him. Overtightened the truss rod to the point that it snapped the neck behind the scarf making a perfect W shape with the two holes for the FR nut. I probably should have taken a picture because it was truly a clean W. Anyway - I did the proper gentle cleaning of the wound with some sanding cord - just to get the fine splinters out and have already glued/clamped this back together. It has cured now for about 36 hours. So my question is - does anyone see a problem of my re-attaching the neck (BTW - the fretboard popped complete off when the break happened) with no fretboard and a titebond-ed joint and adding low E and high E to verify the joint? Another thought I had was to possibly add 2 thin pieces of fiberglass cloth along the length of the neck (similar to what model airplane hobbyists use) or would that even make a difference. To clarify, the fiberglass cloth would be sandwiched between the FB and the neck. Broken headstocks aren't usually repaired that way (to my knowledge) but since this guy has asked me to go ahead and replace the FB with one he is ordering, I'd like to make sure it doesn't snap again. Thoughts? Just pull the break open without doing any more damage and squeeze as much titebond in the joint as you can with a needle. 36 hours should be good. It will break again anyway regardless of what you do. It's part of what one should expect if they're playing that neck. My 88 RG and 89 EX360 fm with the origial wiz necks have both broken and been repaired in that same spot a half dozen times between them. They've never split twice on the same repaired joint tho. If it makes him feel any better, it would have broken eventually even if the truss rod was never touched. If you want a real fix, build a new neck for it and don't drive bolts through your scarf joint on a paper thin neck. Damn that was a stupid design. Don't stnd on it. It will break. I don't care how good your glueup is. It will just split in a different spot. Edited February 21, 2011 by masterblastor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 if your fretboard is off anyway i would consider adding some carbon fibre reinforcement bars to the whole length of the neck at this stage, one either side of the truss rod. i would run them right under the locking nut just to the outside of the two bolt holes. - you should be able to get it to look stock but be massively more stable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just pull the break open without doing any more damage and squeeze as much titebond in the joint as you can with a needle. 36 hours should be good. It will break again anyway regardless of what you do. It's part of what one should expect if they're playing that neck. My 88 RG and 89 EX360 fm with the origial wiz necks have both broken and been repaired in that same spot a half dozen times between them. They've never split twice on the same repaired joint tho. If it makes him feel any better, it would have broken eventually even if the truss rod was never touched. If you want a real fix, build a new neck for it and don't drive bolts through your scarf joint on a paper thin neck. Damn that was a stupid design. Don't stnd on it. It will break. I don't care how good your glueup is. It will just split in a different spot. I've built an Ibanez style neck on my 2005 Red Korina Jem and never had issues with it. My 1987 Jem has been real good to me as well, both with through holes for the nut bolts. My next build will be a top mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thanks guys - the Titebond did a pretty stout job, but I think I might just consider the carbon rods as they're easily accessible. Filling in those holes and going in from the top was my first reaction - esp. with all the cracks you see around those two screws on Ibanez necks. We'll see if they're up for that. I think my plan for this will be to sand off the rest of the nut shelf first (since it splintered nicely when the FB popped off) and add a nice little piece of veneer in its place - possibly add the rods/convert the nut and go from there. The next challenge arrived this afternoon when the FB he ordered from evilBay showed up and SURPRISE it's about .5 mm too wide from about the 8th - 1st fret. Only issue is - of course - it's bound... yea...... Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterblastor Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've built an Ibanez style neck on my 2005 Red Korina Jem and never had issues with it. My 1987 Jem has been real good to me as well, both with through holes for the nut bolts. My next build will be a top mount. Wow, an 87 Jem. Sick!!! Wish I had one. The 87 jem had a different neck. it was 19mm at the first fret. The Roadstar, RGs, and EXs were 17 mm thick. They were the same width tho. iirc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've built an Ibanez style neck on my 2005 Red Korina Jem and never had issues with it. My 1987 Jem has been real good to me as well, both with through holes for the nut bolts. My next build will be a top mount. Wow, an 87 Jem. Sick!!! Wish I had one. The 87 jem had a different neck. it was 19mm at the first fret. The Roadstar, RGs, and EXs were 17 mm thick. They were the same width tho. iirc I love the '87 Jem. I played the crap out of that thing over the years. It had multiple re-frets and eventually had to replace the fingerboard. I went with an Ebony board for the replacement so the guitar is not completely original anymore. Its a player, not a collector's item. Here it is, played live, this past February: The Dimarzio PAF Pro really give it distinctive voice, which cuts through the mix prefectly. My 2005 Korina has a similar neck with a more rounded profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 im pretty sure you have taken the idea off the table at this point but i dont think fiberglass would make it much stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 \m/ wow I don't think I have ever seen that covered! Dio and Sabbath in the same song!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 im pretty sure you have taken the idea off the table at this point but i dont think fiberglass would make it much stronger. Thanks Tim. It was a thought, but I'm pretty sure the carbon rods will do more. I've done it before in bass necks - will be 'extra' careful doing it to a wizard. The Dimarzio PAF Pro really give it distinctive voice, which cuts through the mix prefectly. Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireFly Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Stand on the neck for 1 min. If it breaks, the repair is no good. As long you you don't weigh too much (over 175lbs), it should be a good test. One thing you could do to add strength, is fill the nut bolts with epoxy and use top mount screws instead. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Stand on the neck for 1 min. If it breaks, the repair is no good. As long you you don't weigh too much (over 175lbs), it should be a good test. One thing you could do to add strength, is fill the nut bolts with epoxy and use top mount screws instead. -1 If you consider that a normal guitar neck has about 90lbs of pressure on it, testing the joint with 140-170lbs of pressure doesn't seem asking too much. If a neck can't withstand that, there's no point in using it IMO. Of course, you'll say that the 90lbs isn't applied directly to the scarf joint but I like to make sure that if the neck takes a hit, it won't snap off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireFly Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 While that could all be true, you should never stand on a customers instrument. As for testing your own glue joints on your builds/commissions, i have no problem with that practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 While that could all be true, you should never stand on a customers instrument. As for testing your own glue joints on your builds/commissions, i have no problem with that practice. I guess you could just use weights instead. I would just hate to fix a neck, put a new fretboard on only to have it break again. Speaking of which, since the fretboard has to be replaced, why not just scarf a new headstock on a nice, recut scarf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Me too I weigh about 150-160 and the physics of standing on a wizard neck with no fretboard - broken or not scares the hell out me. At least with a fretboard it's closer to 3/4" thick. Even with a truss rod, I dare say that a 1.5" x .5" piece of maple could stand up to me standing on it supported only at the headstock and butt - BUT - I have done that test on other necks and got the idea from seeing a PRS (I think) ad years ago where he stood on one of his necks stretched across 2 chairs to show how sturdy they were. This guy agreed to the CF rod install as the headstock has a custom paint job and he really does not want me to replace the neck (funny - he can afford for me to fix it - but not replace/refinish it.... oh well). I spoke to him as well about switching the nut since it appears to not be a stock Ibanez nut (having 5 threaded holes in it) and he wasn't too keen on that - like it violates some Ibanez voodoo or something, so I let it go. I'm just here to make sure that the neck gets fixed, fretboard replaced and frets installed correctly You can imagine how happy he was to when I explained that whole "you bought a fretboard that's too wide at the top and it's got binding - how shall I proceed" thing. Speaking of which, since the fretboard has to be replaced, why not just scarf a new headstock on a nice, recut scarf? The break is about 1.5" above the scarf - the scarf is in great shape - I'll go take a quick pic of it now so you can see. Edited February 22, 2011 by kpcrash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wow. That's quite the break. There's so little wood there, its not funny. This is what I did on my 2005 Korina Jem: http://pic100.picturetrail.com:80/VOL912/4316378/14511501/254753539.jpg The CF rods will do nothing for the nut. Its a waste of time and money IMO. I really think that filling those nut holes with epoxy is a solution. Maybe you could add a couple layers of Maple veneer behind to nut and make a smooth transition between the neck and headstock while leaving as much material as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 The CF rods will do nothing for the nut. Its a waste of time and money IMO. ya really think? i was talking about installing the bars laid out like this - although obviously under the fretboard - not on the back of the neck they need to go under the nut as far as possible to get the most benefit - but not onto the headstock. i cant see how that wont massively increase the strength in this area (as well as reinforcing the whole neck!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 The CF rods will do nothing for the nut. Its a waste of time and money IMO. ya really think? i was talking about installing the bars laid out like this - although obviously under the fretboard - not on the back of the neck they need to go under the nut as far as possible to get the most benefit - but not onto the headstock. i cant see how that wont massively increase the strength in this area (as well as reinforcing the whole neck!!) ok - I get it now. Would a piece of walnut or similar wood have the same basic effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterblastor Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 The break is about 1.5" above the scarf - the scarf is in great shape - I'll go take a quick pic of it now so you can see. Yep, that's the wizard's curse. stamped with a "W". +1 on the CF rods. Great idea WezV! Depending on the grain that should shore up 80% of it. I've also wondered about plugging the holes with dowels and attaching the nut with glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 ok - I get it now. Would a piece of walnut or similar wood have the same basic effect? it would certainly help and would probably be more than enough. if i was doing that i would think a few inches long would do it - but the full length CF bars are a worthwhile addition to any skinny neck Then there is the question of what to do with the holes. If you can get the CF bars out the way of them its no issue, you will have to see how best to lay them out, if not i would plug then with a matching wood plug (not a dowel), probably before routing for the Cf bars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Something like this is what I'm thinking at this point.... I'm not sure that any kind of wood would have the same effect. Again, the nut "pad" will be a piece of maple veneer. Forgive the freehand nut drawing location - but it gets the point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wow. That's quite the break. There's so little wood there, its not funny. This is what I did on my 2005 Korina Jem: http://pic100.pictur...1/254753539.jpg That's pretty cool... I'll probably bug you more about how your router sled is set up for these necks once I get a few more little projects knocked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 nother thought I had was to possibly add 2 thin pieces of fiberglass cloth along the length of the neck (similar to what model airplane hobbyists use) or would that even make a difference. To clarify, the fiberglass cloth would be sandwiched between the FB and the neck. Broken headstocks aren't usually repaired that way (to my knowledge) but since this guy has asked me to go ahead and replace the FB with one he is ordering, I'd like to make sure it doesn't snap again. Thoughts? If you did use the fiberglass(not a bad idea,on a Wizard)I would use epoxy at that joint. Don't stand on it.It will break.I have an original Wizard neck and studied the way they backmount the locking nut,and it is not made to withstand that much pressure..it is meant to be thin,not very strong.I would never even use strings thicker than 10s(I use 9s).The wood is almost nonexistent at that point. Veneer is also a good solution,instead of fiberglass,since you most likely will lose a little thickness in prepping the joint for a re-glue. Again,never stand on a customer's guitar.That is called "destructive testing"(testing a joint to the point of failure),and you only do that on test pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Ok, so I got the CF rods installed, no biggie there. Grabbed the new customer supplied FB and for grins decided to dry fit it since there looked to be a low spot near the nut on the low E side. Surprisingly, from about the 12th-13th fret area up, there is about a 1/16" gap with the fb clamped down. I didn't want to put too much pressure on it right now since I'm just lining things up. Being a wizard neck that's already had some kind of surgery on it to remove the original FB (before it got here) - any suggestions on how best to level this out without sanding? I mean - I guess I could make sure it's level in the neck cradle and spread epoxy to level - but anything better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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