GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Hi! I always see post where people talk about knocking on a piece of wood and judging it's tonal properties by it. But in my opinion the tap tone is mostly related to the size and thickness of the piece. Every differently sized piece should have a different resonance frequency or am I wrong here? Thanks in advance, Marcel Knapp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 i agree with you...but some don't it is hard to claim something like that is fact or fiction,but i find that the ones i have built have no relation to the "tap tone" but there are others who believe in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 i agree to a certain extent, but i have found that pieces the same size and species can all have a different resonance when tapped, this way the best piece can be found(i did this with my current project) and guess what the lightest piece had the longest 'sustain' when tapped. interesting eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 As far as I know the resonance frequency of a piece of wood is mainly related to it's size and density. As long as the two pieces you compare do not have EXACTLY(John!!!!) the same size and density they will always sound different. Take a tuning fork(don't know if this is the correct name in english) for example: If you remove the slightest portion of metal on one end, it will not resonate with the correct 440 HZ anymore. And then the question remains if it is possible to judge the final sound of an instrument by it's tap tone.... I cannot believe it makes sense at all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 please note that I don't want to prove someone wrong here or play the smartass....I am just interested in what you think about the issue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 i agree, youre right, i was just saying that, of two pieces, both resonated pretty much the same. just that one of them rang on longer(by a significant amount). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 i agree, youre right, i was just saying that, of two pieces, both resonated pretty much the same. just that one of them rang on longer(by a significant amount). I don't think having a piece of wood that resonates longer means that the guitar will have more sustain, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syxxstring Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 I talked about this with my friend who is at robero-venn right now. He says they lurned about it more when shaping braces of an acoustic top. Basically to see what effect you were having on the how the top would work with you current brace configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 I don't think having a piece of wood that resonates longer means that the guitar will have more sustain, though. No, but it's a good place to start. If you start building with a piece of wood that has no resonance (just goes "thud" when you tap it), there's little you can do to improve on that. If you start with a lively piece of wood, (one that has a nice, ringing "knock" when tapped) it's a lot less likely that you'll have a dead instrument. Of course, a lot can happen with all the cutting, drilling and carving, but it's always good to start with an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Don't confuse lively sound with sustain. A piece of granite would not resonate like a piece of wood but it would have loads of sustain because it would act as a solid anchor for the strings, but you wouldn't get the rich sound that vibrating wood adds to it, especially when played clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 It's much more important to building acoustic instruments than solidbodies. It does have a place in building solidbodies, but nowhear near as important. But to any acoustic builder reading your title, and you calling it nonsense, you would be showing more your lack of understanding and experience on the subject than making a point of tap tone importance. Let's take a simple quality knife for example. Say you live in the 'burbs somewhere, where a good knife may not have much meaning in your everyday life. You would say 'what's the big deal about packing a knife, I never use it, what nonsense, what's the big deal..if I really wanted to pack, I'd have a Glock anyway'... Give that knife to an avid outdoorsman or someone who lives in the mountains, and that simple knife can mean the difference between living comfortably and uncomfortably, being able to get things done or not, where that same knife would have easily over 10,000 uses and get used pretty much every single day of his existence, and be an integral part of that person, almost like a 3rd hand, it would be 'that' important. Tap tone is like that, it's a tool for those who need it. And for those that do, tap tone has a story to tell for those who read the whole book. There is a LOT of information in a tap tone to an experienced ear. But not everyone needs it. And it takes years to develop that experienced ear. Just because you have no need of it or don't quite know how to 'read the signals' it gives off does not mean it's nonsense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlexVDL Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 exactly!! I couldn't have said it better... (although my comparisons are kinda strange sometimes ...toilets.. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Drak....please take the time to read my posts properly before you start such aa pointless attack. The title was "Tap tone of wood....isn't it a nonsense?". Do you see the question mark? Did you read the following reply from me: please note that I don't want to prove someone wrong here or play the smartass....I am just interested in what you think about the issue.... It's pretty obvious that I just asked if it makes sense to check tonewood by knocking on it and that it should not be a objective method if you look at it with physics. I was just curious what people think about it and if it makes sense. Additionally I made this post in the "Solid Body" Forum as I know that I have no clue about acoustic guitars, but that was not the point. Drak I respect your knowledge about guitar building and I know that you built very nice instruments, however this is not the first time that I see a post from you critizing someone just to prove how great you are no matter what the topic off the original post was. You don't have to do that, we already know that you are a good builder.... The bottom line is: I NEVER said that checking the tap tone of wood is nonsense....I was just wondering what you guys think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Oh well...can't please all the people all the time... If you didn't want to debate it, then you shouldn't use words like 'nonsense', and 'my opinion'... PS, I have never referred to myself as anything but a backyard hobbyist amateur, so I guess you're not reading posts any too close either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Drak: Sad that you are not able to accept any critique, although I even stressed that I respect your work.... If you didn't want to debate it, then you shouldn't use words like 'nonsense', and 'my opinion'... I NEVER wrote that I dont't want to debate the topic. What do you think I started the thread for? As I explained before I NEVER said that checking tap tones is nonsense PS, I have never referred to myself as anything but a backyard hobbyist amateur, so I guess you're not reading posts any too close either... You have not read my post again....I stressed that I have respect for your work and think that you are a quite good luthier judging by the pics of your work. I NEVER said that I think that you have that opinion of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Drak: Sad that you are not able to accept any critique, although I even stressed that I respect your work.... If you didn't want to debate it, then you shouldn't use words like 'nonsense', and 'my opinion'... I NEVER wrote that I dont't wante to debate the topic. What do you think I started the thread for? As I explained before I NEVER said that checking tap tones is nonsense PS, I have never referred to myself as anything but a backyard hobbyist amateur, so I guess you're not reading posts any too close either... You have not read my post again....I stressed that I have respect for your work and think that you are a quite good luthier judging by the pics of your work. I NEVER said that I think that you have that opinion of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Don't you think you're going just a 'wee' bit overboard dude? Lighten up for chrissakes, lay off the caffeine, it's not that big of a deal. I engaged your topic, and all you have done is attack me personally left and right, sounds to me like you were never really interested in the tonal plusses of tap tone at all, and you were really just troll-baiting, 'cuz that's what you've turned this into. Either grow up or lighten up, or don't post inflammatory topics if you don't know how to debate without taking it so personally. I'm done here, have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlexVDL Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 edited again: this discussion is nonsense, I don't even want to spend my words on it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 @Drak: I NEVER attacked you....in fact I stressed your knowledge concerning guitars. You came in this thread and attacked me based on misreading my posts. I NEVER posted a flamebait as well. Until now you did not refer to even one of my points of critique but just began to try to make a fool of me and calling me names instead of staying on topic and debate in a acceptable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Talk about hijacking your own topic, this has turned into 2 pages of absolutely worthless drivel. Did you come here to talk about guitars or to just post crap? 2nd time now I have tried to get this back on post, no success. Sometimes this place is a complete joke. No further information on tap tone to be found here, this topic has been shot down in flames by it's own author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 and i thought i was argumentative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbkim Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 I'm waiting for the GuitarMaestro vs. Drak thread like the Strat-war/GuitarMaestro vs. AlexVDL thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 But in my opinion the tap tone is mostly related to the size and thickness of the piece. Actually I think it is related more to the density of the grain of the wood, sap content of the pores in the grain and the overall moisture content. Every differently sized piece should have a different resonance frequency or am I wrong here? While size may matter you have to also take into account the way the actual grain of the wood flows in each piece, they are more like finger prints which may make them unique but they also could be so close that to measure that difference would be almost impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 please note that I don't want to prove someone wrong here or play the smartass....I am just interested in what you think about the issue.... With a statement such as this, going on the defensive shouldn't happen but if the bickering does continue I will move parts of this thread to the correct forum for a continuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Well stated Brian. On to original topic. In tne tapping, one must consider size, shape and thickness. I have found that tap tone is not 100% accurate, actually about 80 to 85 percent. Usually, hen one taps a board, the board should be held loosley to chek resonance and tone. A tight grip will give inaccurate conclusions. Tapping can also conclude if there are any defects in the board as Brian referred to. Sap pockets, wormholes, decay, and bug damage give off telltale signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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