Sustainer Ideas

[psw]

pete

Put a watch on the auction...are you bidding CS?

[

Indeed! Oh, and I think this is the model in particular:

http://www.musicyo.com/planet/metallist.asp

If I win the auction I'll have to take careful measurements to make sure the routing I've done a few months ago is sufficient. And if it is indeed the same driver/circuit it works with a pair of 9V batteries in series (ouch, more routing? ) but on the plus side it would also work as a neck pickup!

Well, there is your wiring diagram, again we see all the pickups being controlled most likely by electronic switching with everything going to the board. You can see here the size of the routing and modifications required, substantial. This has been my driving force to simplify this as far as possible as well as shrink it down. Here we have two batteries, a large board with set switch locations, substantial routing and not one but two batteries...plus a complete rewire and loss of pickup choice...

You really should ask yourself if you shouldn't look out for a complete guitar once it gets to this stage.

In contrast, if I could get a tele to work with a mid pickup, no rewire, just connect the circuit to the selector and add optional controls and stick on the driver...similarly a strat, rewire out the middle pickup and install the driver in it's place. For all the work on driver technology and such, sustain can be had with the DIY version but the installation and addressing these issues has had little practical attention here and few if any conclusive solutions!

Driver design innovations are pursued with the end goal of making a sustainer like device that addresses the above issues, otherwise simply buy one is my advice. Trying to copy one will take work, skill and expense, making one "better" is a noble cause I guess, but only in the context of something practical in my book.

My epoxy is still setting so too early today to get any reasonable outcomes from the new bi-lateral design of mine. So far this has proved to be one of the few designs that have even come close to working in the mid position, however it's defects (uneven drive (a and b strings dominating) and the problem of string bending over the gap between g and d strings are significant. It appears to require more power and this kills batteries pretty quick (the reason the above uses two I suspect).

Still worth pursuing, and some of the problems with power consumption may be partly explaind by my small coils and shallow low power driver design not using it efficiently enough. The other problems, well I think these are inherent in the design itself, but perhaps not insurmountable or a toned down enough to a workable comprimise between performance and application and installation...we will see...

pete

[psw]

Some more interesting and encouraging results with the bi-lateral idea MKII. The driver coils came out perfectly but were a little low so put some thin wider ceramics under them of the same polarity to give them a bit more magnetism...I guess I can try a few variations on this scheme. The b string is most responsive and the whole thing runs with a lot less power, in fact in some instances, my amp won't go that low (it doesn't reduce to zero) and I get different and surprising results with different pickups. The neck pickup for instance sounds bright and a bit more like the middle position when in sustainer mode, the bridge pickup, a typical SC tele is very bright. This guitar also has that ashtray bridge pickup plate, so this may also be causing a few side effects you wouldn't get on a strat. Likewise, cheap single coils, typically noisy. Middle selection (both pickups) barely sustains at all, perhaps they are sending opposite signals or something and defeating the gain...hard to tell.

I can get a lot of squeal but quite by accident, and similar to UI's loop strategy, I tried to push the coil away from the bridge pickup...in doing so the point touched the bottom of the magnet on the side reducing or even removing the squeal all together, but leaving the sustain effect. This may also be in line with the sustainiac side plates and I will also have to investigate a version of this, perhaps even the fins.

It seems to work a bit better if arranged end to end, but this makes it a little wider than a normal pickup...aesthetic you know!! However, it will work in a Z coil mode especially if there is a small gap between the coils. In both set ups, there is less of a drop out with the g, occasionally you get a weird harmonic effect with bending, probably the effect of a reversed coil and residual polarity from the opposite magnet or something.

Even with the additional magnets, this driver fits easily stickytaped to the scratchplate of a tele with about 3mm gap, more than a lot of normal drivers. Each coil is still pretty thin in width, less than 10mm so is easy to avoid with the pick (though slightly annoying.

The wiring is still as before, circuit and all, so perhaps I should retry wiring of the circuit to the selector so that as used different pickups are selected for the circuit and for the guitar.

On a tele you get a different effect again from other guitars most of which featured a bridge HB. Much brighter and piercing as you would expect I guess, perhaps too bright a source for the circuit, playing with the tone control helps a bit, so there is another clue and maybe I should build a preamp with some control over the "tone" of the signal to smooth things out.

The driver is still not perfect but all the benefits remain and it is an improvement. The benefits are of course easy installation, no rewiring at all, little if any switch noise (perhaps a slight noise switching on, yet to be fully tested) and correct kind of format for the application (small surface mounted driver). The side benefits, use of different pickups and no bypass requirements, different sounds, different harmonic responses (probably due to this mid location).

At the moment I am testing it in a very traditional telecaster copy with single coils. What I want to do is develop it for my project guitar which features an HB in the bridge. This guitar is interesting as it has a large cavity under the HB with room for a bit of circuitry but retains the typical tele control plate which is removable with two screws and by chance perfectly allows a battery to be put under the controls (if push-pull pots are not used in this area).

Anyway...another day, another driver. Hope everyone is enjoying easter and catches up with this progress in due course. Suggestions and feedback welcome of course!

pete

Another quick update: This tele has two single coils and they are rwrp. The bilateral is also reverse wound,reverse polarity, but the lower and the upper are the reverse of one another. The result is that each pickup has a different sensitivity, on this one, the lower strings are attracted to the neck pickup and the upper string set attracted to the bridge pup. A fin of light metal from the underside of the pickup seems to make an improvement as it keeps some of this stray field by creating an opposite attracting field near by. It also give clues to some of the strange harmonic effects I am getting...the signal and magnetic polarity is reversing with the pickup changes...hmmm, interesting but hard to describe. Lots to play around with. It will be interesting to see how it copes with an HB or a stacked pickup, both of which feature in the guitar I am prototyping this for. Moving the driver only a tiny amount seems to make a big difference too, I suspect there is a sweet spot. Still the high strings predominate, perhaps in part to this polarity issue and the fact that I am not changing pickups to the circuit when I change selections. Getting late and the whilstle tones of this feedback guitar is probably going to disturbe the neighbours...ciao for now...p

Edited March 26, 2008 by psw

[ghendrickson04]

Pete, you were talking about making a bilateral driver that overlapped in the middle to remove the dead spot (looked kinda like a P-bass pickup). I was thinking about my bilateral driver (which I still haven't gotten around to installing), and was considering making metal tabs to put on top like the Sustainiac driver that would overlap on the edges of the middle, possibly eliminating or reducing the dead spot. Do you think that would help eliminate the dead spot with your bilateral driver?

[psw]

Pete, you were talking about making a bilateral driver that overlapped in the middle to remove the dead spot (looked kinda like a P-bass pickup). I was thinking about my bilateral driver (which I still haven't gotten around to installing), and was considering making metal tabs to put on top like the Sustainiac driver that would overlap on the edges of the middle, possibly eliminating or reducing the dead spot. Do you think that would help eliminate the dead spot with your bilateral driver?

Obviously this is why sustainiac has this feature however I did have some concerns that the cores would simply use this as a bridge between them (a bit like the continuous metal plate has on the magnetic field in col's FEMM drawings), perhaps you would need more magnetic power than you wouls otherwise require.

I have concerns that where there is a strong magnetic flux (in such top plates between driver magnets, or in a substantial bottom plate) this is where most of the electromagnetic effect will be taking place too. The only part that creates the sustain effect is in the part that crosses the strings, elsewhere it is wasted (though these concerns may be misplaced). Having the coils physically touch does seem to lessen the effect.

Unlike other bi-lateral experiments at the moment and I assume yours too, mine are a little different. Mine have been very compact with a limit to the mass of the coils (mine are entirely ferrite) and the size and power of the magnets, small very compacted coils with no bobbins at all and series 4 ohm coils. Sustainiac use quite large cores (laminated) and substantial windings.

If used in the middle position, I have been finding that some metal fins, "cage" or magnetic shielding seems to be necessary at least in some areas, particularly between the driver and the pickup of opposite (attracting) polarity. How the driver would react to HB pickups I don't know. It may be substantially better.

I am trying to think of a way of using both pickups to drive the amp but still allow for pickup selection to the output, any ideas? This appears to be what sustainiac do in their mid-driver patent. Also, one has to wonder why so much circuitry and such is dedicated to electronic switching for a mid-driver application, perhaps they do bypass the selector? You would think that if the sustainer is more of an "add-on" with little interaction between drivers and pickups then you wouldn't need to worry about switch noise and such...perhaps it is more there to make a transition for the driver to work as a pickup and this is the source of problems.....hmmm

Many tele players use the bridge pickup exclusively (like the original esquire design that came before it), if a convincing tone control could be devised to better replicate a neck pickups characteristics, or you dont care, one would be better off with a simple SC design in place of the neck pickup and save yourself a lot of hassles. After playing with this a bit, the driver in the middle position does get in the way and is higher than I would have a mid pickup on a strat for instance making it harder to finger pick particularly, and pick in general. Perhaps it is the size of my hands (fairly large) or my technique, but it is a little bit of a hassle.

Hope these other versions are coming along to add input into understanding the design and what quirks are related to my version or to the design in general...

pete

[Setain]

I am trying to think of a way of using both pickups to drive the amp but still allow for pickup selection to the output, any ideas? This appears to be what sustainiac do in their mid-driver patent.

The most simple way is to use two buffers. One for each pickup. I don't think two buffers would effect current draw very much, as it is the 386 that draws the most current.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Setain

[ghendrickson04]

I'm not very knowledgeable about designing pickups, speakers, etc., but would it work to use two laminated cores in a bilateral design shaped more like:

_____ ____

| // |

|____//____|

That way it would be the cores that would cross the center, not some top piece like the Sustainiac, and it would also fit inside a normal single coil slot. You could wrap each side, wire them in series, and then fit them to the bottom bobbin of a single coil pickup. Just put a single coil cover with the top removed over it and there you go.

EDIT: That picture looks much different now that it posted. Hmmm...I'll describe it. The cores are shaped like the top of the Sustainiac driver. They overlap. That's it.

Edited March 27, 2008 by ghendrickson04

[Fresh Fizz]

PSW: I am trying to think of a way of using both pickups to drive the amp but still allow for pickup selection to the output, any ideas? This appears to be what sustainiac do in their mid-driver patent.

Setain: The most simple way is to use two buffers. One for each pickup. I don't think two buffers would effect current draw very much, as it is the 386 that draws the most current.

I think that is the easiest way. Now it depends on what you really want. Do you want the switching to be active? The sustainiac mid driver version needs current even when the sustainer is switched off.

What type of switch does your tele have? Same as strat without the in-between positions?

If so, how about modifiying this old one? You need to insert the 2 buffers for bridge and neck (before S2a). Mid on S1a is the in-between position of the to pups. S1b shortcircuits bridge-only and neck-only to ground. No more need for S2a (?)

Just a quick reply, don't know if it's entirely correct.

About my own device: the Ross compressor is ready to be installed.

Cheers

FF

[psw]

PSW: I am trying to think of a way of using both pickups to drive the amp but still allow for pickup selection to the output, any ideas? This appears to be what sustainiac do in their mid-driver patent.

Setain: The most simple way is to use two buffers. One for each pickup. I don't think two buffers would effect current draw very much, as it is the 386 that draws the most current.

I think that is the easiest way. Now it depends on what you really want. Do you want the switching to be active? The sustainiac mid driver version needs current even when the sustainer is switched off.

What type of switch does your tele have? Same as strat without the in-between positions?

If so, how about modifiying this old one? You need to insert the 2 buffers for bridge and neck (before S2a). Mid on S1a is the in-between position of the to pups. S1b shortcircuits bridge-only and neck-only to ground. No more need for S2a (?)

Just a quick reply, don't know if it's entirely correct.

About my own device: the Ross compressor is ready to be installed.

Cheers

FF

I think the buffer idea is probably going to be the most likely solution, it is possible that a bit more preamp gain might help anyway with cheap single coils. On the tele I am testing on, I have a typical 3 way strat/tele type so could be rewired so I have one side of the switch free.

However, I have been busy building and adjusting (I don't know how many times this neck with strings attached is going to have to come on and off!) my new tele. Electronics are not yet wired up, there is a fair bit of customization but I don't want to do anything I will later regret on it. The switch on this one will be a chromed Les Paul type switch with potentially two hots coming out of it I I want, so a little more restricted than some as far as options.

I am using the standard chrome control plate and cavity route so things are going to be very tight in there with a battery and all. I have turned it around so the volume and tone are forward with the switch at the back, these controls are of more use, particularly on a tele than even the selector, and this way it will be well out of harms way and the volume in a perfect position for adjustment or swells!

The kahler trem seems to be working well, taking a bit of setting up though. It has an incredibly smooth feel and is like a cross between a bigsby and a floyd, with this guitar's wilkinson roller nut and locking schaller tuners, it is very smooth indeed. It is like a bigsby in that it is not a fulcrum device like on a strat, but like a floyd in the amount of travel both up and down it can achieve...it will also lock to a fixed bridge if you want, break a string or such.

In relation to the sustainer, such a trem is ideal as, unlike fulcrum trems such as the fender or floyd, the bridge remains completely stationary and solid and the action remains the same. So the strings don't rise or fall above the driver. I am moving to a heavier gauge of string too, 10-52 but with a lower action than on some of my guitars. This is a precursor to a change in style of playing I am trying to develop.

Once wired, I may experiment with the sustainer on this guitar as its dual HB pickups may in fact help things a little for this particular project.

@ghendrickson04...I can't quite work out what this means...oh, I see an edit. You mean the cores are angled slightly, you would still need a gap between the coils for the windings, mine are pretty small, but I suspect that the completely offset p-bass format has advantages. It may be possible to devise something that would fit in a SC size, my magnets and cores are pretty wide and if you look back a lot, you will see a whole bunch of rail like pickups where I suggested similar formats for bi-lateral piggyback designs, many of which overlapped in this gap in anticipation of this very effect. It may even be worth considering the rail design again for a mid driver...the ultimate in overlapping of the coils. I only ever made one, but my designs always have quirky features (usually very small, etc) and these may have interfered with the design concept a bit. After my last mid-drive attempt and the complexity of the rail driver, I am trying not to get too ahead of myself, minimizing construction and building some flexibility into the design. There are a lot of assumptions we play with, and undoubtedly different factors at play that can cause trouble. The way these new ones are being made, I can play with fins and magnets, even the arrangements of the coils without having to start all over.

Anyway, getting late again....keep thinking. I still don't see why some kind of stacked coil couldn't work, but I seem to be the only one...

pete

[psw]

Slightly off topic...I got around to wiring up my project telecaster. What a great guitar! No sustainer (yet) and unless a very good one can be devised that looks good and doesn't compromise it, it won't have one I suspect (which would be a shame).

When I was younger I spent all my playing and practicing time on a real Les Paul. I haven't played it now for years though it is a great guitar.

This telecaster though is different but so "fendery", like it was meant to be. It has a trem (kahler) that is really smooth and no tuning hassles at all, with brand new strings.

The pickups though are a real stand out and I know there are a few would be pickup makers about. In the neck position is a new fender SCN neck pickup...I was concerned that it wouldn't sound so good as my copy has a really dark sound and many simply don't use the neck pickup, but this came from a new deluxe and is absolutely silent but has an interesting bright tone, not a strat but kind of jazzy all the same. In the bridge I have a vintage "full range" fender humbucker. This is a really interesting sound, a very large pickup (much wider than a normal HB) it has two wide shallow coils with ofset screw magnetic poles (no under coil magnets and fake slugs and screws...these things are quite big too and made of some odd alloy that included copper in the mix. The full range HB was used in the starcaster and some tele's but never really caught on. You can definitely hear that keith richards sound there at times who perhaps most famously used them. It was designed by seth lover I believe (who designed gibson's PAF) for fender with the aim of making an HB with the fender sound. I have never heard an HB that is so fender like and it is a perfect match on this guitar and together with quite a different pickup in the neck you get 3 terrific varied sounds.

The guitar sounds like a tele, but not quite, in the middle position there is a bit of that strat quality but different in the neck position a fender crossed with a jazz guitar perhaps. This guitar sounds like no other yet is reminiscent of all these particularly fender like sounds (doesn't really do the gibson though the HB has quite a bit of the P-90 sound in it). However, it also sounds like no other guitar I have played, yet has a classic tone as if of a guitar that never was. Looks good, sounds great, plays great a definite keeper. I have not ruled out some fancy electronics and definitely a sustainer if such a thin works on it, but it would have to be good to mess with the simplicity of this thing or to compromise it's exceptional playability.

If I am not doing a lot with the sustainer, it is because I am busy playing this thing....very cool, very happy... pete

[Donut Man]

Ah, the ol' sustainer thread, I remember I almost convinced myself to try and build one 100 pages back, which I subsequently gave up

Can I just ask a few quick (and probably stupid) questions:

1. Why do I need a preamp for the sustainer circuit? Don't preamps just shape the tone? Is it possible make a working sustainer with just a power amp?

2. If I can bring myself to try and build the Fetzer-Ruby circuit, should I use plain board with holes in or board with copper strips on?

3. What is the view on driver placement? Neck position? Middle position? Or does it not matter that much as long as it is close to the strings.

I'd like to read the whole thread, but 200 pages scares me even more than the 100 last time I checked, so please forgive the noob questions.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Donut Man

[psw]

Hey there...bit daunting , however look at the much shorter tutorialsd and pictorials linked at the end of my posts...a bit easier to digest...

Ah, the ol' sustainer thread, I remember I almost convinced myself to try and build one 100 pages back, which I subsequently gave up

The thread that won't die, plus with sometimes hundreds a day looking in, I guess it has a life of it's own now and will never go away...

Can I just ask a few quick (and probably stupid) questions:

1. Why do I need a preamp for the sustainer circuit? Don't preamps just shape the tone? Is it possible make a working sustainer with just a power amp?

No, preamps are not to shape the tone but in this case especially, provide an impedance match between the high output pickups of the guitar and the power amp. Most importantly is the resultant effect of "loading" without it. The output of the guitar would be shared between the circuit and the guitar amplifier robbing the guitar of tone and power and the same for the sustainer circuit.

Out of interest, why does the idea of needing a preamp put you off, do you have a poweramp or something?

2. If I can bring myself to try and build the Fetzer-Ruby circuit, should I use plain board with holes in or board with copper strips on?

I like the copper strips, see the DIY layout software for ideas, do what is best for you or what is available. You may even find kits of something that might work or could be adapted...look for LM386 circuits and such. Really the F-R circuit is pretty simple with just a few extra components, so I don't quite understand people insisting on poweramps and weird obscure things. That said, I have never used the F-R, any LM386 like the ruby is fairly generic, the data sheet version is a bit better and any kind of preamp or buffer would most likely work, perhaps the slightly simpler ruby would surfice...check out the runoffgroove.com site for ideas, that is where it originated from. Basically any amp with a pre is going to work I guess, so something that works with dynamic mics for instance...I think there was something from canakits at hobbytron but they wont sell to me in OZ??? If I could get one, I could probably mod it and post the procedure, by hey, they don't like my money or something???

3. What is the view on driver placement? Neck position? Middle position? Or does it not matter that much as long as it is close to the strings.

The middle position drivers we are working on now are experimental and no one has really posted a lot of success in this. To make it work you need to have a very good and sophisticated driver design and construction. The neck position is what all commercial systems use as you need as much distance from the bridge pickup and the driver as they can link magnetically. Also, any other pickups (neck middle) will need to be completely bypassed when turned on, this will be a challenge if the guitar has more than one pickup and I still haven't got a reliable solution to this.

I'd like to read the whole thread, but 200 pages scares me even more than the 100 last time I checked, so please forgive the noob questions.

No...don't do that...you have done exactly the right thing. As I say, this is the biggest thread on this or possibly any guitar forum and has been going for years now. There is a lot of failures and ideas posted by me and others that didn't work and while a valuable resource, is misleading at best. Posting on this thread also gets attention from the most recent people and ideas and is guaranteed a quick response.

Ok...thanks donut man, others may wish to speak to this and we have not yet got a F-R layout I am entirely satisfied with, but as I don't use it, I am not really inclined to do much of this stuff for risk of mistakes and such. Someone should make a better standard amp for this project, the fetzer part was designed for "tone" and has no advantages in this over other designs that may be easier.

Otherwise, although these questions have been asked before, at least I can answer them quick! There are a lot of people who may look in occasionally and so may also have the same things on their mid but don't have the courage to post or feel they may be interrupting the flow of conversation...fear not!

Have a nice day... pete

[Donut Man]

Thanks for clearing all that up for me. The reason I don't want to make a preamp is because I find myself slightly incompetent at soldering and want an "easy way out", maybe using a few pre assembled components. And yet I don't want to pay £100 for a 6 string sustainer kit, or more trying to track down a 7 string Fernandes, to cannibalise the 7 string sustainer - Bad combination, I know......

So basically, if I can't build a F-R myself, I just need to find an audio amp that has an input buffer?

Also, as a slightly unrelated question - Is the impedence problem you described similar to what people experience when they try to mix piezo pickups and magnetic pickups without a "buffer" preamp?

EDIT: Another quick question, Galaga_Mike mentions in his "make your own sustainer" guide that the Ruby doesn't have enough gain for lower output pickups. How low output is he talking here? PAF low? or higher? The reason I ask is, I play metal, and all of my pickups are pretty high output humbuckers, so I'm wondering if I will actually have a problem using the Ruby circuit.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Donut Man

[psw]

Thanks for clearing all that up for me. The reason I don't want to make a preamp is because I find myself slightly incompetent at soldering and want an "easy way out", maybe using a few pre assembled components. And yet I don't want to pay £100 for a 6 string sustainer kit, or more trying to track down a 7 string Fernandes, to cannibalise the 7 string sustainer - Bad combination, I know......

So basically, if I can't build a F-R myself, I just need to find an audio amp that has an input buffer?

Well post what you are considering using, I made my early ones from modified kits. If you can find an pramp and LM386 circuit about then this could work ok. It sounds as if you may need some help if your soldering is a little sus, this can be a tricky operation, I find the installation can be very tricky and frustrating, and then the driver construction is another problem in itself. The circuitry and stuff is easy enough but the project itself has many, many challenges...hence the length of this thread!

Also, as a slightly unrelated question - Is the impedence problem you described similar to what people experience when they try to mix piezo pickups and magnetic pickups without a "buffer" preamp?

Yes...exactly the same as this, the two don't mix at all. Poweramps generally have low imedance inputs while pickups are generally high impedance (excepting EMG's etc which already have preamps in them for this very reason).

EDIT: Another quick question, Galaga_Mike mentions in his "make your own sustainer" guide that the Ruby doesn't have enough gain for lower output pickups. How low output is he talking here? PAF low? or higher? The reason I ask is, I play metal, and all of my pickups are pretty high output humbuckers, so I'm wondering if I will actually have a problem using the Ruby circuit.

Beware of G-mikes tutorial, he jumped in to that before I consider it to have been ready. It is good and this is where the F-R amp was born, as I say, I have never made one myself. Of particular note is the driver which was not made to the specifications (should be 0.2mm wire) and odd neo magnets salvaged from disc drives, not the ideal.

If he had used a very good driver chances are that he wouldn't need gain in the preamp stage. At the time I was using far more pre-gain than that with the sustain-o-caster but now I am using a buffer with excellent results with SD JB type HB in the bridge and better drivers. If you have high power pickups, then yes, less gain is probably ok...even no gain as I think the ruby has, but you will still need that pesky transistor or something like it to buffer the amp in the pre-amp stage to prevent loading no matter the pickup.

A seven string sustainer has not yet been attempted, but I see no reason for it not to work pretty well if done right. It sounds like you may need help, you will need to practice the soldering and have the basic equipment (multimeter, etc) and while it looks like a cheap alternative, results are not guaranteed and generally, there is a reason the sustainer's cost so much. I have noticed though that a lot of people have had considerable trouble installing the comercial units and tuning them up to their guitars application, so even that is not guaranteed...most will need a competent guitar electronics guy even with these. Trying this project is not, at least at this time any easier. Still for a seven string, I don't think there are any on the market presently, so perhaps there is not a lot of choice in that regard...

good luck... pete

[MUNKIE]

I know I've spoken to PSW before about this but got no clear answer. I wanna make this I'm going to start off with just a standard sustainer. but I really want the Harmonic side of it too. how is this done?

[psw]

I know I've spoken to PSW before about this but got no clear answer. I wanna make this I'm going to start off with just a standard sustainer. but I really want the Harmonic side of it too. how is this done?

Hmmm...didn't I explain it properly. Never mind. The idea is simple, you reverse the driver leads! This can be done with a dpdt switch wired exactly as you would a phase switch for a pickup (typically a kind of X on the wiring) so you can switch back and forth. If a driver isn't working right, try this reversal anyway.

By doing this what happens is that the driver instead of driving the strings is actually trying to stop them, or drive them in reverse. What actually happens is just as you create a harmonic by stopping the string lightly on the twelfth fret say, the fundamental (naming note) is suppressed but the harmonics behind it are driven instead. The harmonic produced depends on the driver placement and the fretted position of the note amongst other factors. Therefore, you won't get harmonics consistently in octaves, often it is an octave and fifth above, they all derive from the natural harmonic series and are present in the note and so are musical and predictable.

While my early models seemed to do this pretty well, lately I have had trouble with this function. Instead, you can bias the circuit to have more treble or include a tone control or simply drive the strings harder (if your system is good enough not to cause excessive fizz or EMI problems). Generally I use a 100uF output capacitor and my low strings tend to sound as harmonics.

There are a lot of factors involved, how many harmonics are in your note, the pickup that is driving it (my spiky tele pickup seems to produce harmonics no matter what). Also, if you pluck a harmonic (pinch or natural) this tends to sustain and if you slide them around the following notes tend to stay harmonic.

Anyway I hope that explains it, the wiring diagram has been posted several times, perhaps in my contributions in the tutorial...check it out... pete

[Captainstrat]

I apologise in advance if someone's already said this but...I'm about to take a page from Reeves Gabrels' book! I read that he's used a vibrator to play slide as it increased sustain

I mean, all jokes aside it would vibrate the strings...I've been thinking of a different approach to the sustainer, maybe attach a piezzo buzzer (or the innards of a vibrator? ) to the underside of the Strat's bridge... something tells me that might not work-in order to generate enough vibrations the "buzzer" noise might be amplified by the pickups...not something I'd want!

[psw]

Yes, well I gave up with some of these ideas, and I did try a lot of them. One is the piezo buzzer idea, it takes a lot more energy to vibrate a bridge with the weight of all those strings attached to it, a lot more than simply trying to move the strings, you will find that there is a significant phase difference and that trying to get a buzzer to buzz that these high frequencies to move the high strings even if you could get a buzzer to move like that.

As for vibrators, you know how they work I assume...electric motors. This means EMI at a fixed frequency. I had thought the little vibrating motors from mobile phones. You can try the experiemnet, take an electric motor and hook it up instead of the driver. The result is that the AC signal will rotate the motor (or try to) backwards and forwards and is a cool demonstration of what you can't see the driver doing to the strings. The difference is that there is a lot of momentum and such to try and stop and reverse the direction of the motor so with high strings, not going to happen.

Here is an idea I tried over 20 years ago now (yes, I really am that old). Look up the gizmotron and it's weird history with the members 10cc...wiki...

Theses had little wheels inside with a lot of little tiny picks on it that span around plucking the string when a little lever was pushed down. Even way back then, I was intrigued by such tecnology. I made my own in 5 minutes by taking an electric toothbrush (also a new idea at that time), cutting a slot into it and wedging a guitar pick in there. The brushes motion was up and down and if held over the string very rapidly plucked the string in a similar way. It did work, but it also sent the signal of the motor directly into the pickups and so the amp, making a steady g note!

This will also happen with vibrators, gizmo's and other such devices operated by motors.

I honestly did hold some hopes for such acoustic sustainers. I for instance really hoped that a transducer (small speaker with the cone removed and coil weighted, could be mounted to the springs in a strat which in turn would vibrate the bridge...still lots of EMI and in general didn't work.

I came to the conclusion that these ideas make a lot of acoustic noise and vibration and require a fair amount of work for at best a compromise result if any at all. Let's face it, it has to be easier to drive a string tuned to the frequency that it is being driven at and already in motion, than it would be to vibrate the bridge or the entire instrument.

Still no reason not to play around with these ideas and like me, you may well find some insight by trying some of this stuff...and of course what you do with a sexual aid in the priovacy of your home is your own business....be aware however that if you claim it works, we will want pictures if not a youtube video!!!!

pete

[Donut Man]

Late night idea:

http://store.guitarfetish.com/on25waguamdr.html

Would that work as a preamp/poweramp setup?

[psw]

Late night idea:

http://store.guitarfetish.com/on25waguamdr.html

Would that work as a preamp/poweramp setup?

hehehe....

I actually bought one recently, haven't used it yet. I suspect from looking at it and the chips data sheet, that it doesn't have a preamp. The pot is also an on off switch BTW and the amp is BTL which may be an interesting twist as far as grounding (one of the reasons that I was looking into it). Also, 2.5 watts is a little much but I had hoped to get some extra clean headroom with it.

As I have my own circuit and doing comparisons on drivers, I have chosen to concentrate on this over experimenting with alternate circuits. There may be some promise and a big part of buying one was in the hope of it creating a ready made solution, but I suspect that it will require some kind of buffer in front of it and of course there is no AGC or anything fancy.

Still, an interesting alternative to the LM386, this uses a JRC 2073 chip in bridge tied load...just went and got it in front of my and there appears to be nothing but this chip and a few resistors and caps...so no preamp from what I can see. The trim pot probably simply tones the gain down so you won't get 2.5 watts of clean power.

I have had a series of emails by the way with someone that has made a fabulous driver but the symptoms described sound a lot like too much power...beware of seeking power for power's sake. If you are in canada or the us I have posted a link to an interesting and cheaper LM386 circuit with preamp and they even sell it built...however, they wont sell to Australia!!! It is made by canakits and sold through hobbytron. It would likely require a few simple mods and I'd be interested in getting one myself. I don't understand their policy but there you go. Otherwise, there are kits of the champ for instance, even though it does require a preamp or buffer there is a prechamp or other preamps around in kit form.

I had thought about selling my circuit built up, but being hand built and all, I am not sure what I would charge for it. Also, inevitably with a project like this where the amp is only a small part of the equation, if it doesn't "work" because of driver design or construction or installation...then I may be swamped by other questions that I can't answer. This is the reason for seeking to make the driver too in a universal format (the ultra thin coil pickup conversion) but once I did that, it was vertually a sustainer system and the bugs really need to be ironed out if it was going to be sold as such.

Anyway, you know that the F-R is one very easy circuit and the skills learn't will help. If you are daunted by building this, how will you deal with troubleshooting installation or even making a successful driver...got to take some courage but it is not as hard as it looks. Even though this is not a difficult project to attempt, it does take a lot of perseverance. If it were easy, every one would make them and we all could simply buy one...clearly it's not.

Anyway...good luck to all, I take it from the silence lately with all these projects on the go that either time is short or there are some problems being ironed out. @curtisa, watch out for the storms today, Victoria was hit pretty bad and the sky was brown with dust and blocked out the sun in melbourne!!! I heard this morning that the winds reached hurricane force and I spent the day running out and fixing things on the house as they blew away...hehehe

pete

[curtisa]

@curtisa, watch out for the storms today, Victoria was hit pretty bad and the sky was brown with dust and blocked out the sun in melbourne!!! I heard this morning that the winds reached hurricane force and I spent the day running out and fixing things on the house as they blew away...hehehe

Yeah, weather was crazy for a bit there, wasn't it? Hobart and Melbourne airports were shut down because of high winds, and a truck crossing the Tasman bridge had a shipping container blown off the back of it onto the road! Was chatting to one of the electricity distribution operators today (I work in the power industry) who said they were flat out servicing customers with blackouts for a period of about 36 hours.

Progress has slowed a little now that I'm back at work from my time off. However I have drawn up a PCB layout ready for etching of a class-D driver. It's all surface mount components, but not the really tiny stuff. Everything should be workable with a regular soldering iron and a bit of patience. Board size is 80mm x 55mm, a bit bigger than a credit card. I can get it a little bit smaller still but at the expense of height (I'm using right-angle plug-in headers for the external connections to the circuit. Using vertical headers instead will make the board a bit smaller, but the connectors will stick straight up requiring a deeper cavity inside the guitar.

[ToneMonkey]

This has to be the longest thread in internet histroy

[vallste]

Hello to everybody!

I'm planning to try the build of the sustainer for may 7 strings fretless bass... I have "some" doubts:

1. Since the low B string is quite large (.130 if I'm not wrong...) do you think that the Fetzer Ruby circuit will deliver enough power?

2. I've some problem to find suitable (big enough) magnets for a "blade" design (let me say that string spacing at bridge is 17 mm and 10 mm at nut, o figure). Maybe individual polepieces will be easier to find. I don't care of string bending, I slide! That said wich kind of magnets will be suitable, any supplier in Europe?

3. needing such a big driver do you think that the magnetic field emitted will be strong enough or some energy will be lost in moving nothing?

4. What about a single driver for every single string made with 1 magnetic polepiece surrounded by 1 ohm coil, with all the coils connected in series?

Keep this thead going, it' amazing

[psw]

Welcome Vallste...

At last someone wants to make a bass sustainer.

First thing you need to do is acknowledge that it is going to be experimental and the results a little unpredictable. However it should work in some configuration and in some fashion, the trick will be find out what is best. I am not sure if anyone else has done stuff on bass sustainers, I have given it a cursory go (including something recently) and sustainiac used to make one.

With a bass you are going to need something that can amplify these very low frequencies, even lower with your bass. & strings means a huge frequency range...id be very tempted to devise a stereo system. So, a sustainer for the lower strings and another for the upper set. This could have some very interesting and useful musical applications but it may also allow for a pair of circuits driving different frequency sets.

In support of that also is the fact that string damping may be a problem. All or any of the strings are likely to want to feedback all the time and damping is very important to keep this under control. With a huge string spread and a lot of bass techniques, such damping is going to be difficult if not impossible. One cheat that you can steel from "tappers" is to tie a sock or rock approved scarf (or devise a jennifer batten style open string damper) so that only fretted notes will feedback while in use.

Hello to everybody!

I'm planning to try the build of the sustainer for may 7 strings fretless bass... I have "some" doubts:

1. Since the low B string is quite large (.130 if I'm not wrong...) do you think that the Fetzer Ruby circuit will deliver enough power?

I am not sure, perhaps others would have an opinion on this. Being so large, it has a lot of metal in it and so in some ways it is easier to drive. Also, at these frequencies it is vibrating a lot slower than a low e on a guitar (let alone the guitar's troublesome high e) so there are some advantages there too. My concern would be that it may not be able to handle such low frequencies adequately.

2. I've some problem to find suitable (big enough) magnets for a "blade" design (let me say that string spacing at bridge is 17 mm and 10 mm at nut, o figure). Maybe individual polepieces will be easier to find. I don't care of string bending, I slide! That said wich kind of magnets will be suitable, any supplier in Europe?

Magnets are all around us once you start looking. I have found some good ones in craft shops. Which ones will depend a little on the design approach. You can use a row of individual ones and yes, I think individual poles, two drivers or even individual poles or driver coils for each string is likely to be a good approach for your application. It might even be an idea to reverse the magnet and coils for each as I recently did on my dual coil design (an the other dual coil bi-lateral designs discussed recently) to reduce EMI effects.

3. needing such a big driver do you think that the magnetic field emitted will be strong enough or some energy will be lost in moving nothing?

Since string bending isn't an issue and the string spacing likely to be wider, either individual drivers or coils or a pair of drivers in stereo is likely to be more efficient and possibly easier to do.

4. What about a single driver for every single string made with 1 magnetic polepiece surrounded by 1 ohm coil, with all the coils connected in series?

This might be the way to start...

Keep this thead going, it' amazing

As long as there is interest, I am interested (though I am going through a period just now where sustain is not something so important musically to me...it is good to take a break).

Planning is crucial...but don't forget that ideas need to be backed up with deeds and this can be a very frustrating process. I would suggest posting a pic. With all my bass ideas, I have found that there is room between the strings and the top of the instrument to devise drivers that could be stuck on with double sided tape without modification to the instrument...you simply need a wire from the selector if there is adequate space between the pickup/s and where the driver is going to go...so pickup bypassing is not an issue in many cases. If you have split pickups like a p bass, it may even be possible to use each separately for a true stereo driving experience...but that may get tricky.

So...I think it is doable, I think you have the right idea but it is something of an unknown territory. I have had an on/off affair with a bass version because I don't really have a musical use for it. I love the fretless bass sound BTW and have one here but I am not a "bass player". However I do acknowledge that a lot of bass players are adventurous (more so that guitarist in general) with their designs and approaches adding strings and electronics and techniques to take advantage of these features. It must be becoming more common too as the GOTM competition has been dominated by such instruments.

If you could make it work, the ability for the upper or lower string set to sustain notes while accompanied by the other without it may make for some interesting ideas and be easier to control.

A thought occurs, I was going to say if Micheal Mannring (its that the guy?) can drive a bass with 4 ebows or something, then obviously the sustainer will work...and then I thought...you know the guts of an ebow is essentially a F-R LM386 kind of circuit with an individual driver.

It might benefit from different design characteristics...parallel coils with more winds, thicker wire and more power, stronger magnets perhaps. Others here might have some ideas on this. If the bass is active, you may not need the fetzer/preamp stage BTW. 1 ohm coils may be a little weak, however a stereo system may allow for 3 ohm coils in series which might help also in this regard.

Anyway...5 am here, back to bed!! Perhaps a picture will inspire more ideas and I hope other's will comment and contribute to the idea...very interesting...

pete

[Dirge for november]

Hey, another probably answered question :

I am now seriously thinking about making myself one of these rigs, as I can combine it with my internship as an extra assignment. I plan on refinishing my older ibanez, and instead of 3 pickups just one p-90 in the bridge. This is what I would like to put the rig in. My question is, is it possible to wire the system so that a three way switch acts like this: back=bridge pickup middle=bridge plus driver front=bridge plus driver harmonics mode.

Another question is:

Is this tut. still up to date, or are there better ways to do it nowadays? http://www.storm-software.co.yu/diy/index....oject=sustainer

Please excuse the questions.

Cheers

[psw]

Welcome back Dirge for november,

Yes I think that tut is pretty good and the software is excellent with layouts for the fetzer-ruby amp as well. I think a few modifications to this amp may be desirable or even necessary, mainly tweaking I guess. Adjustable gain between pins 1 and 8 with a 1k trim pot and a 10uF cap is a good idea. Maybe you might wish to lower the value of the output cap, I use 100uF...it may depend of the guitar and pickup.

My question is, is it possible to wire the system so that a three way switch acts like this: back=bridge pickup middle=bridge plus driver front=bridge plus driver harmonics mode.

It depends on the switch...a gibson style toggle probably not, you could have it on standby though operated by another switch and be activated that way with some of these switches. A fender style switch probably could be adjusted to switch the power on in these modes...maybe not, I would have to think about it....actually no, I suspect you may need a 4pdt switch to achieve the phase reversal, plus power operation...so maybe a 3way 4pdt or something, or a rotary switch. Perhaps some others will have some ideas.

Things have been very quiet on the sustainer front, however I have been corresponding via email and another very interesting and well made sustainer was completed recently with an interesting solution to some EMI issues it would seem using an actual pickup coil hidden under the scratch plate. Now that it is working perhaps it will be posted...some interesting stuff.

I am doing some music stuff that does not require a sustainer so it is not a high priority for me at the moment but I am still here and working away on other stuff. I recently finished one guitar and have started another as well as getting into some digital recording...

I recently bought a BR600 cheap and this is an amazing little device but with a very steep learning curve. If anyone has experience or tips on using this thing, contact me. Otherwise, this tiny little thing has 8 tracks CD quality with 8 virtual tracks each, a velocity sensitive drum machine that is independent and synced to the recording so can be edited along the way, a big selection of Boss amp and effect models (including pretty good bass and acoustic guitar simulators) plus mastering effects including pitch correction for your dodgy vocals, two inbuilt but very good condenser mics, a phrase trainer that will allow slowing down of things without changing the pitch, and USB to dump it into a computer or upload midi drum tracks into it...the list goes on. Even though the manual is as big as the machine, it is a little cryptic and I came from an era of bouncing tracks between cassette recorders so it does take a little getting used to.

Another thing of interest and is free, not sustainer related but thought I'd share, is the Power Tab Editor. This or Guitar Pro can down load tabs of course, or make your own...but it can also import midi. So, if you pick a midi file off the web you can import it into Power Tab and it will try and tab out the parts into separate tracks. Then, you can attempt to play piano or other parts and adapt them to the guitar. You can also strip away any other parts and play along or import the midi into the drum machine and have a whole drum arrangement to play with for no cost...very cool!

Musically, I am moving away from the traditional soloing and rhythm guitar and trying to combine both with the melody of real songs. So, the sustainer is not really useful for this style which can get a bit busy. I am also using Kahler trems on my new guitars and these things have been great. Not only does it have a very smooth action and incredible range (slack to about a fifth up) the action doesn't change and the bridge is fixed, not a fulcrum like fender or floyd. I am using it for more subtle bigsby type things, the real boon is the string definition, each note in a chord is really well defined and notes are very articulated. They don't retrofit easily nor are they cheap, but they are very good. The guitar I am playing is a modified telecaster and the one I am working on a Les Paul with a few tricks thrown in.

Anyway...hope everyone is ok and sustaining away with their various projects...best of luck...

pete