Grain orientation?

[toddler68]

I am going to do my first laminated neck with maple-purpleheart-maple-purpleheart-maple. This may be a dumb question but should the grain run parallel to the fretboard or perpendicular?

[Curtis P]

I have put the grain so it runs from the headstock to the hell, so its verticle, same with fretboard

Curtis

[skibum5545]

if you're making this out of flatsawn boards, flip them onto their sides so that they're in fact quartersawn boards. Then, have the grain orientations of the outer maple reversed from each other, and do the same as the purpleheart.

[www]

Mmmm.....! I'm not sure that by changing the way a board lies changes the initial cut. Once flatsawn always flatsawn and once quartersawn always quartersawn.

I think it would be that way! In my opinion. Just wondering.

[bowser]

ya it is the cut of wood isn't it, otherwise there wouldnt be any issue with flatsawn if all you had to do was flip it over

[westhemann]

ya it is the cut of wood isn't it, otherwise there wouldnt be any issue with flatsawn if all you had to do was flip it over

wrong...flatsawn is just quartersawn on it's side

where the problem comes in is the thickness of the piece when you turn a flatsawn board into a quartersawn,which is why you laminate it.

for example...if you have a maple 4" by 4" by whatever length....put it on one face,it is flatsawn..turn it 90 degrees...it is quartersawn

[toddler68]

Thanks for the wood lesson fellas. I suspected as much (flatsawn rotated = quartersawn) but I needed confirmation from some advanced users. How about the 5 layer lamination, am I taking any chances with 5 versus 3?

[westhemann]

Thanks for the wood lesson fellas. I suspected as much (flatsawn rotated = quartersawn) but I needed confirmation from some advanced users. How about the 5 layer lamination, am I taking any chances with 5 versus 3?

no...it is actually stronger the more laminations you use...as long as you make a proper lamination(clean,tight joints,good glue spread)

[GregP]

Thanks for the wood lesson fellas. I suspected as much (flatsawn rotated = quartersawn) but I needed confirmation from some advanced users.

I would say this is one of those rare cases where the experience level of the builder wouldn't matter, though I can understand that an experienced builder could give you more confidence. Your first instincts were correct right off the bat because you possess critical thinking skills and common sense! Combine that with confidence in your findings, and we'll be seeing world class guitars within a few years. ;-)

As for the nay-sayers, all it would have taken would have been a quick drawing on a piece of paper.

Greg

[daddy ray]

Thanks for the wood lesson fellas. I suspected as much (flatsawn rotated = quartersawn) but I needed confirmation from some advanced users. How about the 5 layer lamination, am I taking any chances with 5 versus 3?

no...it is actually stronger the more laminations you use...as long as you make a proper lamination(clean,tight joints,good glue spread)

i have a neck blank i built that is for an in the works neck through 7 string baritone

5 maple 4 purpleheart

the key to good glue joints is to fab. a glue press

i built mine out of corner angle brackets screwed to a hardwood 2x6 & then screwed to my bench top

on the other side a floating 2x6 that moves in as the clamps are tightened

the 2x6's are important to spread the pressure evenly on the neck strips

also it's important that one be screwed to the bench...it can be set perfectly straight with a straighe-edge as it's screwed down & this alignment then transfered to the neck as it is pressed & drying

use lots of clamps for even squeeze

wrap your glued wood with wax paper to keep from gluing everything to the press & bench cause their will be some squeeze-out

i'm just a hobby shoper & no web page...i'd be happy to post pics if someone could tutor me

dr

ps...i checked with alembic & they also wipe their woods with acetone as a prep before gluing

this is especially important with oily woods such as cocobola (did i spell that right?_

[MartinP]

One more good thing abt. laminating a neck - if building a neck with tilt back peghead, you gan make the peghead-neck connection (neck heel??) as a butt-joint. "A bit" more work, but you get a really strong construction in the weakest point of an neck.

And, of course, flatsawn wood is a lot cheaper than qs and more readily available.

[toddler68]

Daddy ray,

I would be very interested in seeing pics of your glue press. When you learn how to post the pics, tell me as I am a knucklehead in that department.

[daddy ray]

Daddy ray,

I would be very interested in seeing pics of your glue press. When you learn how to post the pics, tell me as I am a knucklehead in that department.

i do know how to send photos via email attachment

be happy to do that if it's cool with you

dr

[toddler68]

daddy ray,

sure! send to oneal_todd@hotmail.com. thanks again

[GarageRocker]

Hi all,

I've been lurking for about a month, appreciate all the good info here. I'm a long-experienced woodworker who's planning to build a few basses soon.

Rotating a flatsawn board on its side does not make it quartersawn. Flatsawn is sawn tangential to the rays, quartersawn is sawn parallel to the rays or radially from the pith. You can't change that by rotating a board, all you're doing is changing the orientation.

Adding more laminations does not necessarily make anything stronger. People talk about a good glue joint being stronger than the wood, but that just means its failure point is higher, not that it makes the structure stronger under normal use.

There are two big advantages to rip-and-flip laminations: If you do it right, it will be more stable than a solid piece; and you can make the it stiffer by adding laminations of a stiffer wood.

[litchfield]

One more good thing abt. laminating a neck - if building a neck with tilt back peghead, you gan make the peghead-neck connection (neck heel??) as a butt-joint. "A bit" more work, but you get a really strong construction in the weakest point of an neck.

And, of course, flatsawn wood is a lot cheaper than qs and more readily available.

I get it all the same price. I just pick thru for the quartersawn. Windsor plywood.

[westhemann]

Rotating a flatsawn board on its side does not make it quartersawn

.

of course it does...all quartersawn means is that the grain of the wood runs straight "up and down" so to speak between the face of the wood and the "back face"

by changing which side is the "face",you are ,of course,making it quartersawn

Adding more laminations does not necessarily make anything stronger

.

it makes a more stable piece of wood..which is of course what we are after in aguitar neck...and it is why hamer makes 3 piece all mahogany necks

really be careful of your facts...i know many "longtime woodworkers"(as well as guitar builders)who still fall prey to hearsay

as gregp says

As for the nay-sayers, all it would have taken would have been a quick drawing on a piece of paper

.

[diehardcrew]

Actually you're both right. Flatsawn laid on edge will only be like quartersawn for the pieces cut nearer the center of the log. If you've seen flatsawn end pieces, you'll know by the heavy grain lines that flipping it 90 degrees won't make it quartersawn.

However, the flatsawn pieces nearer to the center will pretty much be identical to quartersawn wood if laid on edge.

Notice I said pretty much, because indeed they are not the same. If you don't believe me or want to find out for yourself, take a smaller log and cut it right down the center. Take one half and cut it into half, so you have 2 quarters. Take a quarter and start sawing off lumber, almost like pie slices.

Take the other half and just start sawing off parallel to the flat side (the center). You'll see that the farther you get from the center, the more of a difference there is between quartersawn and flatsawn laid on edge.

We're not dealing with lines and squares here, we'll dealing with circles, and as you get nearer the "round" part of the circles (the outside), the way you slice it does matter.

So once again, all this means is that wood selection is important. Don't pick the end pieces of flatsawn, and you can effectively have a quartersawn neck with laminates.

[westhemann]

i am not sure but it sounds like you are talking about riftsawn....

i am talking about perfectly flatsawn and perfectly quartersawn

[GarageRocker]

really be careful of your facts...i know many "longtime woodworkers"(as well as guitar builders)who still fall prey to hearsay

You know, I tried to be nice since it was my first post and I have plenty to learn about building guitars. But you need to be careful of your facts. You're the one making unsupportable statements.

...all quartersawn means is that the grain of the wood runs straight "up and down" so to speak between the face of the wood and the "back face"

No, that's not what it means at all. It has to do with how the wood is sawn from the log.

Here's a .pdf of chapter 3 from the USDA Forest Service's Wood Handbook: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/Ch03.pdf Look at the explanation and illustrations on pgae 3-2, also the table at the bottom of the page. It should be pretty apparent that flipping a board on end can't turn a flatsawn board into quartersawn or vice versa.

it makes a more stable piece of wood..which is of course what we are after in aguitar neck...and it is why hamer makes 3 piece all mahogany necks.

Umm, I said it makes it more stable if it's done right. That's not the same thing as stronger, which is what you said: that more laminations make it stronger.

Rip-and-flip laminations do help counteract movement. I do like laminated necks, and I'm planning two laminations of ebony or pau ferro in between three walnut laminations for my first two necks -- I have some nice stable old walnut.

[westhemann]

Here's a .pdf of chapter 3 from the USDA Forest Service's Wood Handbook: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/Ch03.pdf Look at the explanation and illustrations on pgae 3-2

take figure "a"

turn it on it's side...it becomes a piece of flatsawn with a very thin face

take piece "b"...turn it on it's side...it is not quartersawn...

my contention deals with the direction the grain runs

and it is funny that in all my time here you are the first with experience to contend otherwise

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this is a diagram from another post

Umm, I said it makes it more stable if it's done right. That's not the same thing as stronger, which is what you said: that more laminations make it stronger.

see...in the english that i speak...it is similar enough in meaning as to be interchangeable...

[westhemann]

You know, I tried to be nice

this is a difference in beliefs....not a nicefest or a getpissedoff fest...

your job is to convince me and everyone else through facts

this is what i have been told on many,many occasions throughout the years i have been here by all of the experienced builders that have ever answered a question about this

at the very least you are getting all the strength and stablity of a quartersawn piece of wood,if not more,by doing as i,and many others suggest...

there is alot of bad advice going around the site lately,so if you think my suggestion results in a less stable and strong neck,then tell me how

[westhemann]

by the way what i am trying to say is that i am interested in the correct info being on here,even if that means i am wrong

so let's be specific in how this applies to guitar building as to what provides the stronger,more stable neck...as well as the specific definition of quartersawn and flatsawn

[skibum5545]

I drew up a diagram of a tree in Visio, and I'm STILL confused... that's when you KNOW it's time to go to the experts...

A is Tangential, B is radial from the pith....

From GarageRocker's explanation, quartersawn wood has to be either infinitely thin or wedge-shaped, NEITHER of which make for very good guitars....

So... what am I missing?

[westhemann]

from what i understand...the strength of the wood pulling towards the face depends on the grain orientation,not the way it is sawn...

the sawing is just what gets it to that orientation

so if you can get the grain to orient perpendicular to the face by turning it on it's side...then in effect you have quartersawn...

i think i am correct in my thinking here...what am i missing?