Dr. Jabsco Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 would the titebond join be suffencent on a oily wood (such as bocote) on a scarf join? if not, how would somone go about removing it, and re gluing it properly hypothetically speeking of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrmiller Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 I was just pointing out that the glue with the longest track record isn't aliphatic resin, which has been around less than 50 years. I've used Titebond without problems, and I'm not saying it's worthless, but it seems to me that the reasons for not using hide glue have a lot more to do with convenience of application than with functionality. There are many old pieces of furniture many centuries old that are still holding (with the original glue joints). Keep in mind that the joints in a violin that fail are designed to give when they do, and are frequently glued with a weaker glue for this reason. If the top of your instrument shrinks at a different rate than the ribs, which would you prefer to have break? Gluing a loose seam is much easier than dealing with cracks. Hide glue sets by a two-stage process. The first stage is when the glue cools and gels. That holds the joint together. The second stage is evaporation, during which the glue shrinks. Many violin makers actually use this property to glue the center joint in a top or back with no clamps, in what's known as a "rubbed" joint. You put glue on the mating surfaces, rub the pieces until the glue grabs, and let it dry. The shrinking pulls the joint tighter, and these joints can and do easily hold for hundreds of years. Heat alone won't separate the pieces, but introducing lots of moisture can, so if you want to play in a sauna, maybe hide glue isn't for you. Then again, if your instrument is exposed to those conditions, you're likely to have plenty of other problems besides the glue. If anyone wants to try hide glue, you can get it through most woodworking stores. Woodcraft carries the Behlen brand, which is the same stuff Stewart Macdonald sells, and it's pretty good. Don't bother with the electric glue pot; you can make a better one in a few minutes from a Rival Hot Pot or an electric coffee pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 would the titebond join be suffencent on a oily wood (such as bocote) on a scarf join? if not, how would somone go about removing it, and re gluing it properly hypothetically speeking of course i used titebond on my bocote fretboard...as i ALREADY said...it works fine and bocote is not that oily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinP Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Are there any (audible) sonic differencies between epoxy / aliphatic / hide glue joints, say, when glueing a fretboard or laminating a neck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth_b Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 I stand corrected in that aliphatic resin glues were invented this century. What can't be argued is that joints getting their strength from molecular adhesion (i.e. titebond 1, hide glue) have held up for a long time. It's the right type of glue for jointed wood surfaces. Epoxy joints are no better for the intended use of gluing up a guitar body, and have some drawbacks as well. Tage Frid, the recently deceased dean of American woodworking, was a big fan of hide glue. But, mostly for its convenience, not any strength it offers above Aliphatic resins. Don't take my word for it, see Dr. Hoadley's book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 He's a professor of wood technology, and a fine wood-worker in his own right. 25 years ago, I glued some scraps of ebony together with standard wood workers glue (titebond, if I can remember--whatever was in the bucket in the shop) and turned a mallet from it. Last time I hit a chisel, it didn't look like it was coming apart any time soon. Surface preparation is more important that the type of wood, or it's oil content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 I noticed that the issue of Titebond Original vs. Titebond II has come up again - here's some info from a previous thread on that topic: Titebond I vs. Titebond II The info in that thread came from a tech. support person from Franklin (the makers of Titebond). To sum it up, he did not believe there would be any difference in joint creep between Titebond I and Titebond II. I don't think there's any real good reason to use TitebondII however but I thought it was interesting since many people seem to believe II does creep more than Original (maybe it does - I don't know). The main thing I got out of that conversation was that he pointed out Titebond Extend is more resistant to shifting. I'm posting this because I don't think many people even know that this product exists. I haven't seen it available at hardware stores but WoodCraft does sell it. Titebond Extend is supposedly used by people who build laminations for railings, ... things that need more time to set up and will be more resistent to joint creep over time. This was the product that he recommended if you're concerned about joint creep. I've been using it (off and on between Titebond Original) since that time and haven't had any issues yet but it's still too early to really know. I don't mean to infer that people using Titebond Original are at risk for having joint creep issues - I just wanted to point out that there is another product that is supposed to do even better in that area (according to Marc at Franklin). I think I remember reading that PRS uses a "special" epoxy for attaching fretboards - anyone remember reading that? DaveQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrmiller Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Are there any (audible) sonic differencies between epoxy / aliphatic / hide glue joints, say, when glueing a fretboard or laminating a neck? I don't know how audible the differences would be, especially in an electric guitar, but Jose Oribe has this to say about hide glue in The Fine Guitar: Flexibility: Another important property of animal glue is that it dries to a crystalized state. This crystaline material does not absorb or dampen the vibrations of the instrument. The soundboard, particularly, is affected by soft-flexible vinyl glues and in this case, the high frequencies are noticeably dampened. The thermo-plastic properties of polyvinyl adhesives are especially noticeable at all external glue joints. These adhesives soften and move under the finish with increased air temperature. So theoretically, PVA glues (which also include aliphatic resins) could have a damping effect, but I doubt it would be too noticeable in the joints you mention. I'll take your word that Tage Frid's reasons for preferring hide glue had more to do with convenience than strength, but hide glue is stronger than Titebond. According to Franklin, Original Titebond has a bond strength of 3600 psi, Titebond II has a bond strength of 3750 psi, and Titebond III, their strongest glue, has a bond strength of 4000 psi. Compare this to hot hide glue, which can have a strength in excess of 10,000 psi. For a guitar, these are all strong enough, but it's a mistake to assume that the modern glues are necessarily stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I'll take your word that Tage Frid's reasons for preferring hide glue had more to do with convenience than strength, but hide glue is stronger than Titebond. According to Franklin, Original Titebond has a bond strength of 3600 psi, Titebond II has a bond strength of 3750 psi, and Titebond III, their strongest glue, has a bond strength of 4000 psi. Compare this to hot hide glue, which can have a strength in excess of 10,000 psi. For a guitar, these are all strong enough, but it's a mistake to assume that the modern glues are necessarily stronger. Irrelevant, considering that titebond (as all glues should be) is stronger than the wood itself. It could be 10,000,000 psi strength, and still not be any better. I wonder what Jose's opinion is on rock hard modern finishes compared to flexible nitro?? Id say he does a complete about face and says that the flexi nitro is better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthier Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I wonder what Jose's opinion is on rock hard modern finishes compared to flexible nitro?? Id say he does a complete about face and says that the flexi nitro is better.... It's my understanding that nitro tends to not flex, and is known to check. My friend used to finish his guitars with nitro but switched when he noticed it would check, even on a new instrument. I've also heard Martin's finished in nitro do the same, my friend even has a Martin with finish checks in the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 It flexes more than lets say two pack or acrylic etc, but doesnt have the capability to expand and contract with the substrate as the temperature changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Cavanaugh Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Uh, while we're on the subject, how can I go about removing hardened Titebond Original? I had it sitting on the table and I thought it was on tight, but I guess not. And anyways, I guess one of my cats must have knocked it over and it's on the tiled floor. Good thing it wasn't a carpet, huh? This stuff seems to be a lot like Polyureathane I might add, does it have polyu in it? Oh yeah, my dad thought he'd be helpful one day and pick me up some wood glue. He bought me a gallon of Titebond II! Needless to say, I told him to hold on to it in case he's gotta do some reglueing on the porch! Of course this is the same guy that thought he'd help by sanding down my Earvana nut I spent $25 for lower action- with a palm sander that had 80 grit on it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Cavanaugh Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 BTW, I know for a fact you can glue basically any wood with Titebond given the surface is prepped and preferably you clamp the pieces together. Titebond is seriously harder and stronger than most woods itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthier Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Of course this is the same guy that thought he'd help by sanding down my Earvana nut I spent $25 for lower action- with a palm sander that had 80 grit on it! I'll just hold my tongue... I would think it would just come off with a chisel, but that may depend on the type of tile. It cleans up with hot water, but that's when it's still a little wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrmiller Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I wonder what Jose's opinion is on rock hard modern finishes compared to flexible nitro?? Id say he does a complete about face and says that the flexi nitro is better.... Actually, he says that "even the best lacquer when applied to the soundboard was not up to French polish in tone quality." He does say that he experimented with catalyzed finishes, and with the help of chemists was able to modify the resins to his satisfaction, to the point that he now uses French polish only on special request. His finish material is supposed to be controllable so that he can have just the flexibility he wants to enhance a particular instrument, but there are few details about exactly what he uses. Of course, this was all written in 1985, and I believe he has since returned to French polished soundboards on all instruments, with a nitrocellulose/shellac finish for the body of the standard models, and an all French polish finish for the top-of-the-line. Let me reiterate- I didn't say Titebond won't work. I've used it on occasion, and it seems okay, but I also didn't see any particular advantages over my usual hide glue. Is there some particular reason you think hide glue is unsuitable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted September 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 He bought me a gallon of Titebond II! Needless to say, I told him to hold on to it in case he's gotta do some reglueing on the porch! come on. they wouldnt make a product that crappy. it may be a little different, but ive talked to a couple of woodworkers and they said they have been using it for years and never had a problem with it. and they do that for a job. so just think abou that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthier Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Is there some particular reason you think hide glue is unsuitable? It may just be the availablity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 No body is saying Titebond II isn't suitable for general woodworking applications. However, guitars have some fairly specific requirements which demand different glue properties than furniture or the like. Since certain joints on a guitar are continually stressed by string tension, creep resistance is important. So is a glue which sets hard. Titebond II falls short in this regard. The manufacturors may claim otherwise, but I've heard enough accounts of failed glue joints to disregard their information. As for reasons against hide glue - like Lex said, availability, and convenience of application. Were it not for these issues I'd use hide glue for all my guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrock Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Not arguing with Setch here (I've got muchos repect for the guy) but epoxy resins creep over time too. Some quite considerably infact. I spent nearly a year testing the creep properties of Loctite Epoxy EA**** the stuff they stick plane wings on with. I think in general glues all have added advantages and disadvantages and everyone has a different method for glueing and getting everything ined up. It's horses for courses I think. One thing I will say is not to use the glue that I started with. It's lumberjack glue, the bloke in the shop said that it was the absolute raving dogs dangly bits but it goes sort of rubbery and makes the joint lines a little bigger than I would like. I'm rolling out the epoxy though for the fret board and set neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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