asm Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 ive heard some *bad* stuff about titebond, such as moisture retention, long dry time, possible warpage, ect. on the other hand ive only heard good stuff about epoxies, and supposedly they are supposed to be better for resinous woods, faster dry time, clear glue lines, as strong/stronger than wood glue, ect. soooo.... i was thinking of just using all epoxies instead of titebond for my project. what are the disadvantages of epoxy? all i can think of is cost wise it may be a bit more. please share any ideas and experiences with epoxy too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 I've used the original TiteBond for repairs for quite a while without problems - it does have a high water content and that may cause some swelling under certain conditions, but it's never caused me a problem. I have heard that the new TiteBond II doesn't dry as completely and may cause creep in joints under stress, but I've never used it. The only experience I've had with epoxies and wood was doing boat repairs with West Systems epoxy, and it worked great! The only disadvantages I can think of would be if you had to disassemble a glue joint after it cured, and the fact that it's kinda harsh on the respiratory system. Keep in mind, my experience is limited, so there may be issues I've never encountered, or didn't notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth_b Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Epoxy will form a mechanical bond, which can be quite strong. Aliphtic resin glues, like titebond, are the most versitile glues for wood. However, they have a low resistance to moisture and heat (not a problem in a guitar). The specific adhesion of titebond is the result of molecular forces between the adhesive and the wood surface. This force is many times greater than the mechanical adhesion of epoxy, or of titebond for that matter. Choose your adhesive based on type of joint, gluing conditions, strength requirements, and cost. Titebond is an excellent choice for a guitar: Properly jointed wood is idealy suited to this type of glue. Titebond will set in as little as 1/2 hour under most woodshop/garage conditions (overnight is safest). Titebond is plenty strong and holds up well over time (there are many examples of wood joints more than several hundred years old that are still stronger than the material they hold together). Titebond is inexpensive, compared with epoxies. If you can be sure your guitar will never experience tempatures greater than 32f, water is an excellent, low-cost, adhesive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrmiller Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Titebond is plenty strong and holds up well over time (there are many examples of wood joints more than several hundred years old that are still stronger than the material they hold together). Where does one find an aliphatic resin glue joint hundreds of years old? Titebond, the first AR glue, was invented in 1955, so we can't really say anything about its lifespan beyond fifty years. The glue that does have those centuries of use to back it up is hot hide glue, which is much easier to use than most people realize. It's very strong, resists heat better than most modern glues (important if the instrument is left in a hot car, for example), and is fully reversible, should you ever want to undo a joint. For some reason, guitar makers have shifted to AR glues, while violin makers have kept with the traditional hide glue. Personally I can't think of any reason to use a modern glue when hide glue has so many advantages. Note that this only applies to the kind of hide glue you prepare by mixing with water and heating. The Franklin liquid "hide glue" isn't good for much other than gluing in labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Wow, very bad advice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 IVe sent you a PM asm, with the answers you need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Allow me to clarify... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 lol. this is quite entertaining. go on, seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthier Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Titebond is a wood glue...guitars are made of wood...probably a pretty bad answer. I have had nothing but great experiences with Titebond I. If you have good, clean fitting joints, and a good amount of clamping pressure, you should be absolutely fine with Titebond. I actually wouldn't mind trying hot hide glue though, but where do you get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFC Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 IVe sent you a PM asm, with the answers you need Please post it here or send me a PM with the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 IVe sent you a PM asm, with the answers you need Please post it here or send me a PM with the info Sorry, i sent it via PM to conserve bandwidth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Dontcha think it's worth some bandwidth so that everyone who reads this thread doesn't go away with misinformation? I'd like to know exactly -what- was bad advice, at any rate, so I don't disregard this -entire- thread, y'know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Use tightbond or elmers wood glue. End of discussion. Its called wood glue for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFC Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 IVe sent you a PM asm, with the answers you need Please post it here or send me a PM with the info Sorry, i sent it via PM to conserve bandwidth If its pictures I can host them, if it's anything else, I can host that too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Here is one point Epoxy will not take a stain.... You glue with epoxy you will have visible glue lines... Thats what rhoads56 is probably referring too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Violins may be glued together with hide glue, but from what i've seen, they also require a lot more TLC over the course of their lifetime. They seem to frequently require repairing, rebuilding and re-gluing of all sorts. I highly doubt an instrument that's been around a couple hundred years is still held together with its original glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Thats what rhoads56 is probably referring too. Nope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I've got an old Gibson banner year J-45 that my dad had given to me, and the bracings are all trying to fall out, some already has, I'm assuming they used the good hide glue? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 so enlighten us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Sorry, i sent it via PM to conserve bandwidth Are you sure that bandwidth is what you want to conserve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Yeah, let's have it. I would love to be educated on what is the right glue for each job. I mean, what if I've been doing it wrong for my whole career? I'd sure like to know. I like Titebond for any clean wood to wood combinations that aren't under a lot of stress, but including some bracing, bridgeplate, and a few bridges, too. Reglues are different, though. You have to deal with residue (hopefully you've removed it) and some chipping or tearing. So then I move to an epoxy or CA. I do most headstock repairs with CA. If there's graphite involved I use epoxy or CA. If I have graphite in a neck then I epoxy the fretboard on because titebond won't have good adhesion to the two strips. I thought titebond could shift a little under pressure over time, but someone said that titebond II was more likely to do that because it never really cures. But I've only used the original so I don't know. I worked with a guy who always used titebond for headstock repairs and I always gave him crap about it because I felt it could walk, and I didn't like titebond when there were minor gaps to be filled from chipping. Plus if the headstock wasn't broken clean off, I felt like you never could get titebond to go all the way in there like you could with CA. But they all held just fine. So most of this stuff is like splitting hairs. Maybe its my ignorange, but I can't bring myself to use hot hyde glue. It's like you're saying "here's this glue that has to be heated to use, and its not permanent because you can heat it up to re-fit a joint later. And by the way, it's very heat resistant!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted August 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 well, i went with this epoxy: http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts....+All+Wood+Epoxy i cant afford with this expensive wood for it not to bond because its resinous. they said its great for woods like rosewood and cocobola so im thinking it will prove good results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 epoxy requires a gap to adhere properly...hence the glue lines.... clean the wood with naptha prior to glueing if it is an oily wood...and use wood glue it will adhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 The thing with hide glue is it's reversible with heat *and* moisture. Keep it dry, and it's the most heat resistant glue there is. Much more resistant to heat and creeping than titebond or epoxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I guess that's my thing. There have been times when customers have brought me guitars that were in their trunk, and there's beads of sweat running down the guitar. So not only is it hot, but it's wet too. I know it's supposed to be the best, but I just can't get my brain around the idea. I know it's my own ignorance but since everything I'm doing now and have been doing so far is working, I never tried it. As for oily woods, I agree with Wes. A good cleaning with a drying agent like alcohol or naptha, and I'll use wood glue almost every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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