Kevan Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey everyone. I just got some odd news from a company that I sent a few Tremol-No units to- I just found out that they are "missing" several. Here are the missing unit serial numbers: #0015 #0021- FOUND (10.6.04) #0066 #0071 #0072 #0073 If you see any of these for sale/trade, on Ebay, or anywhere else, please notify me immediately: kevan@tremol-no.com. The company would also like to know who's taking stuff out of their place w/o permission. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment
Lex Luthier Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 What exactly will they look like? Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 They are all Tremol-No Standard units. They look like THIS. Machined 7075 T-6 Aluminum with black anodized thumbscrews. The serial number is engraved on the side of the receiver. Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Updated. Quote Link to comment
AlGeeEater Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 (edited) Theres nothing on E Bay. What state was the company located? Maybe someone who works for them took some(like a jerk off) lives near the company? Edited October 7, 2004 by AlGeeEater Quote Link to comment
Jehle Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 #0021- FOUND (10.6.04) What the story behind the one that was found. Did it show up behind some file cabinet in their shop? "Oh... there it is... Silly me." Or, did you find it installed on one of their guitars or something? Just curious about how these things grew legs and walked out on their own. Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 It was one that I'd sent to someone, and they decided it needed to be on an endorsees guitar, and not on their desk.....so off it went. I didn't know this, and I sent an IM to the endorsee whom I hadn't seen online in a few months. Just saying, "Hey...how's it going?" and he replied with, "Hey! I got a Tremol-No. It's fantastic! My tech loves it too! Thanks!" Excuse you? He got me the serial number, and I've since adjusted the Owners List. The original owner simply forgot he'd put it in the endorsees guitar when he sent it to him. Kind of a rush job, so...no harm, no foul. Now....let's see where the others turn up. Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Well, since you never filed a patent application for the device and you let your trademark on the "tremol-no" name lapse, I wouldn't be surprised if they started showing up in some Ibanez or ESP guitars within the next year or so...maybe even under the Floyd Rose name. Better contact your attorney and start shaking that company down who "lost" your tremol-nos. You could be wide open to lose a lot of money now, my friend. Especially if the units are in the hands of Mr. Gotoh or Ms. Schaller. Why license it? No patent, no trademark, no problem! How else do you think these multi-million dollar corporations get their next big ideas? If you can't buy the invention (or have absolutely no reason to do so), just steal it! They have their eyes and ears open at NAMM just like everyone else, just looking for the next big idea and the little guy to steal it from. Good luck. Quote Link to comment
Maiden69 Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Crafty I think you need to go to the tremol-no thread and read it completely before posting that... That's about the reason why it's not available for sale yet, it takes for ever to get the patents approved. Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Crafty- With a post like that, I'm going to have to assign some reading homework for you. First Assignment: http://www.tremol-no.com/faq.html Second Assignment: http://www.tremol-no.com/evolution.html Third Assignement: http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=4337 We'll have a quiz tomorrow. Be prepared. Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Are you calling me out? Are YOU calling ME out?! Actually, here's the deal: I'm a law student. A third-year, in fact, who's bored as HELL on fall break right now. So, I'm not a lawyer--yet, but your situation looks very interesting from an academic point of view. I was reading the various Tremol-No threads and read about your current situation with the missing units. I decided to go over to the USPTO's website on current filings with the USPTO. Here's what I found: according to the USPTO TESS/TARR system, your trademarked term "tremolno" was abandoned as of June 18, 2004. This was due to either the failure of yourself or your attorney to respond to correspondence regarding your mark. I swear, I'm not making this up. You can go to www.uspto.gov and see for yourself. Your last name is Geier, right? So then I decided to check and see if you had any patents or patent applications filed for the device. Bupkis. There are no pending or approved applications for a device such as the Tremol-No listed under your name at all. Again, see for yourself. Believe it or not, there is a difference between researching a patent and actually filing a patent, as you did mention on your website: I was surprised to find out that about five patents were on the way. All this from such a simple idea. Anyway, from what I can tell, all you have protecting you right now is basic claim of copyright on the images of the device on your website. All that seems to suggest is prior art which could potentially stop someone else from trying to patent an idea they stole from you. However, if your "missing" units have somehow wound up in the hands of some guitar accessories companies' R&D department, you're screwed unless you have a cool million to take them to court. So, before another famous PG Forum flame war erupts here, let me just say that I wasn't trying to start anything and I actually did read your website and the initial announcement thread in its entirety. All I'm saying is that instead of focusing on just looking around ebay or pawnshops for the missing devices, I'd focus on getting the law involved and squeezing the company who "lost" the devices for answers. It's your money, not mine, brother. I'd rather be buying "original" tremol-nos from you than a company that just stole your idea. I eagerly await your "quiz"... Quote Link to comment
lovekraft Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 A bored law student, who isn't trying to start a flame war, but who assumes that he knows more about the situation than the people who are involved, might just want to consider moderating the tone of his posts, especially when addressing Kevan. You are obviously not in possession of all the information (how could you be, web databases notwithstanding, unless you were on Kevan's legal team?), and as such are speaking only from supposition - the "facts" you've cited do not necessarily prove your assumptions. Cool it before you ignite the very conflict you say you'd like to avoid. Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Are you calling me out? Are YOU calling ME out?!Ummm....YES. Actually, here's the deal: I'm a law student. A third-year, in fact, who's bored as HELL on fall break right now. So, I'm not a lawyer--yet, but your situation looks very interesting from an academic point of view. I was reading the various Tremol-No threads and read about your current situation with the missing units. I decided to go over to the USPTO's website on current filings with the USPTO. Here's what I found: according to the USPTO TESS/TARR system, your trademarked term "tremolno" was abandoned as of June 18, 2004. This was due to either the failure of yourself or your attorney to respond to correspondence regarding your mark. I swear, I'm not making this up. You can go to www.uspto.gov and see for yourself. Your last name is Geier, right?You'll have to wait another 36 hours until I can get to my atty's office. The patent and copyright paperwork are here, but the trademark stuff is at his office. I'll update you on that. I know for a fact that we got the little 'postcard' back from the USPTO regarding the trademark, so...maybe it's just not up on their server yet. Plus, I didn't trademark the term "tremolno"; I trademarked the term "Tremol-No". So then I decided to check and see if you had any patents or patent applications filed for the device. Bupkis. There are no pending or approved applications for a device such as the Tremol-No listed under your name at all. Again, see for yourself. Believe it or not, there is a difference between researching a patent and actually filing a patent, as you did mention on your website:...There's also a difference between what's published (and thus available online), and what's on an examiners desk. I have the Tremol-No patent paperwork here just to my right. I look at it everyday: "37 Total Pages including Claims & Abstract" "20 Total Claims including 3 Independent and 17 Dependent Claims" "25 Figures in 10 Drawing Sheets" It's was filed almost 2 years ago and we're awaiting official patent numbers from the USPTO. When something is APPLIED FOR (i.e. received) with the USPTO, it doesn't get PUBLISHED immediately. Some examiners publish pending documents, some do it after numbers have been issued. You *can* pay a fee and get your pending patent published BEFORE a number is issued, but....I decided against that, so you probably won't see anything with my name on it until the end of the year or so. See? This is why you need that 4th year of law school. :-) Anyway, from what I can tell, all you have protecting you right now is basic claim of copyright on the images of the device on your website. All that seems to suggest is prior art which could potentially stop someone else from trying to patent an idea they stole from you. However, if your "missing" units have somehow wound up in the hands of some guitar accessories companies' R&D department, you're screwed unless you have a cool million to take them to court. So, before another famous PG Forum flame war erupts here, let me just say that I wasn't trying to start anything and I actually did read your website and the initial announcement thread in its entirety. All I'm saying is that instead of focusing on just looking around ebay or pawnshops for the missing devices, I'd focus on getting the law involved and squeezing the company who "lost" the devices for answers. It's your money, not mine, brother. I'd rather be buying "original" tremol-nos from you than a company that just stole your idea.I asked the PG members, because of their excellent "hound skills" regarding online sales and Ebay auctions. Having 3000 guys look for something will net you better results than just one guy looking. I'm not too worried about them being in the hands of "The Penguin" or K.A.O.S. I just don't want to see some clowniac trying to get $300 for one on Fleabay, or even worse, 'sticky fingers' coming out of the company where they were. We'll postpone the quiz, for now. Keep current though. Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Well, it turns out the trademark is just like the patent. Some guys at the USPTO put them up right away, others spend weeks/months on a desk. Looks like mine is on a desk somewhere. The "failure to respond" notice is common. My attorney's even gotten them AFTER a trademark has been issued. You gotta remember: we're dealing with people who are overloaded with massive amounts of paperwork, while simultaneously trying to get information scanned into an insanely large computer database. Gathering facts by what's online is NOT the best way to do it. Go for multiple sources, including the original. I think they're doing a decent job, so you won't hear me complaining. My atty. said that I can't scan the stuff in for you guys, yet....but he did tell me to tell you all: "Relax. Patents, Trademarks and Copyrights for the Tremol-No are all on the way. They will be in the USPTO database soon enough." Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 You know what Kevan? That's good to hear. I've heard stories about good inventors coming up with great ideas like yours and getting screwed because something didn't get filed properly. What concerned me was when it looked like your trademark was abandoned and nothing showed up in the patent search. It still concerns me a little because the basic information, like you and your attorney's information, is still supposed to be searchable on the USPTO website, even if the full application and file hasn't been published or approved. Maybe it's just a government oversight...never heard of that before As for lovekraft and Maiden69's comments, I'm going to post whatever I feel like posting within the rules established by the forum. I will never hesitate to question a person's direction when it looks like something may have been overlooked with the facts I have at hand. Kevan was kind enough to answer the questions I had posted WITHOUT being belligerent or in a term you can understand, uncool. I'm actually a little flattered that he followed up with his attorney and made damn sure that everything WAS filed properly. Having said that, now that school has started back up today, my attention will probably be elsewhere for a while and you won't have to worry about reading long posts from me for a while. BTW, Kevan, law school IS only three years. I'm taking a trademarks and unfair competition class right now, so that's why your situation seemed interesting to me. Our professor had actually demonstrated the TESS/TARR system a couple of weeks ago and looking up your stuff was good practice. I sincerely hope that I didn't offend you or anything. That was definitely NOT my intention. Good luck finding the missing units. I'd still see about putting the squeeze on some people over at the machine shop, though. Quote Link to comment
ansil Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 this made my day reading this.. NO i am not being sarcastic it just made me feel so much better about my day today. so thank you all of you Quote Link to comment
Kevan Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 You know what Kevan? That's good to hear. I've heard stories about good inventors coming up with great ideas like yours and getting screwed because something didn't get filed properly. What concerned me was when it looked like your trademark was abandoned and nothing showed up in the patent search. It still concerns me a little because the basic information, like you and your attorney's information, is still supposed to be searchable on the USPTO website, even if the full application and file hasn't been published or approved. Maybe it's just a government oversight...never heard of that before The USPTO system is flawed, and time-consuming, but it does (eventually) work. Examiners have gotten better and publishing and filing in a timely manner, but they are so overloaded it's not even funny. Those guys look at someone else's desk with a 3' high pile in their INBOX and just giggle...then call the guy a rookie. :-) I don't envy them at all. As for lovekraft and Maiden69's comments, I'm going to post whatever I feel like posting within the rules established by the forum. I will never hesitate to question a person's direction when it looks like something may have been overlooked with the facts I have at hand. Kevan was kind enough to answer the questions I had posted WITHOUT being belligerent or in a term you can understand, uncool. I'm actually a little flattered that he followed up with his attorney and made damn sure that everything WAS filed properly. Having said that, now that school has started back up today, my attention will probably be elsewhere for a while and you won't have to worry about reading long posts from me for a while. Take it easy on Lovekraft and Maiden. They were just looking out for the Tremol-No. Some guys hop online and talk all sorts of smack. They thought you were one of those clowniacs. Protecting the family...heh heh. This is the first place I went public with the Tremol-No, so they take a little pride in that and want to make sure it's name stays clean. I can't blame them, and should thank them! LOL (Love/Maiden- If I'm off on that guess, please feel free to correct me.) BTW, Kevan, law school IS only three years. I'm taking a trademarks and unfair competition class right now, so that's why your situation seemed interesting to me. Our professor had actually demonstrated the TESS/TARR system a couple of weeks ago and looking up your stuff was good practice. I sincerely hope that I didn't offend you or anything. That was definitely NOT my intention. Good luck finding the missing units. I'd still see about putting the squeeze on some people over at the machine shop, though. Only 3 years? Man...they let you guys off EASY! No offense taken. It's actually a good thing that an independent party is checking on stuff (just don't send me a bill. LOL). My atty. didn't realize that the USPTO jacked up the trademark app, so you kinda helped us out by letting us know so we can get it corrected with them. I have a good idea where the missing units are, kinda. I originally sent them to "managment" at the shop. Well, as anyone that's worked in a corporate environment knows, it's a LONG flight of stairs from Mgmt. down to the actual workers. I think the Tremol-No's made it to the "workers", and are now in a box down in the shop...thus Mgmt. having "no clue where they are." That's just my guess. We'll see how it turns out. Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Only 3 years? Man...they let you guys off EASY! Oh god. Your assigned homework is watching "The Paper Chase". My first Property professor was exactly like John Houseman's character. The third year is easy because you can read 300 pages of material per evening and understand it. The first and second year is a bitch above all others. If I'd worked this hard on my B.B.A. I would have graduated at the top of my class back then. Now I'm lucky to be mid-pack here. Yeah, I do owe Maiden and Lovekraft an apology for being condescending in my last post. I am sorry, guys. But I do stand by my philosophy of questioning someone's direction if it seems like something's not quite right. Good luck finding the missing units. Shake 'em down and take no prisoners...we want our Tremol-No's!! Quote Link to comment
Maiden69 Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Yeah, I do owe Maiden and Lovekraft an apology for being condescending in my last post. I am sorry, guys. But I do stand by my philosophy of questioning someone's direction if it seems like something's not quite right. Apologies accepted... I'm glad I didn't read this thread in the last days, you saved me a lot of writting! , just like Kevan said, we will do all possible for correcting somebody, especialy when tht somebody has sweated bullets trying to come up with something and then get told other wise. As for "questioning someone's direction if it seems like something's not quite right" I do this all the time and I have gotten a lot of fire on the last few times that I have done it! So lately I have taken the polite way and kinda slow down my rage and let my fingers loose, I think in the end, if some one is wrong and he don't want to listen! they will screw up so big he will either fade away in time or come back with apologies. Just next time think about before flaming someone! Since the only thing that I said was to read the original thread and especialy since you didn't pointed out on the first thread about reading it. A lot of people come here and post replies with out even doing their home work, just like when you see a lot of new threads that if you just go to the 2nd page on the topic you will see one identical to it or related in the same topic! Glad you ain't one of those! BTW how's your guitar coming??? Quote Link to comment
lovekraft Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Why, shucks, Crafty, I ain't mad atcha, and I b'lieve you gonna be a right fine amb'lance chaser when ya grow up. All kidding aside (and I was kidding), please understand that I have no problem with anybody "...questioning someone's direction..." - I think that's what we're all here for. And while I understand that the Law is an adversarial process, I still think you need to learn to moderate your tone when you're not in the courtroom. Questioning is fine, but this hardly qualifies as a question: ...since you never filed a patent application for the device and you let your trademark on the "tremol-no" name lapse... Not particularly diplomatic, more than a little smug, and above all, incorrect - but that's cool, we all get impressed with ourselves from time to time. This is what alarmed me enough to make me break my silence: Are you calling me out? Are YOU calling ME out?! If that's not an open invitation to start a flame war, there ain't a dawg in Georgia! While I know it's become popular recently to start major conflicts based on erroneous information, it shouldn't be happening here. We've had more than our share of troubles caused by aggressive, uninformed rhetoric in the last few months, and I for one would like to see the adrenaline levels lowered just a wee bit - hence, my post. I'm sure you understand that there's some "pride of place" (if you will) involved, as Kevan mentioned, but my other concern was avoiding another stupid argument based on what someone thought they knew. I'd also appreciate you pointing out the portion of my post that you consider "...belligerent or in a term you can understand, uncool..." - I thought I worded that post quite diplomatically. All I asked you to do was chill out and think - in retrospect, it was good advice, n'est pas? There's no need to apologize to me (I'm a big boy), but it would be nice to hear you say that you just might have jumped to conclusions that your information didn't support. No big deal - in 300 years, nobody's gonna care! Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Jumping to conclusions? ***? Nobody ever does that, especially me Yeah, I should have definitely put a smiley next to the "are YOU calling ME out?!" statement. I actually meant that to be kind of a funny play on "are you talkin' to me?" Sometimes I really do snap at people, oftentimes in real life. But hey, we're guitarists, we're supposed to have a little angst inside. Then again, the girls keep running away after the first or second date... It has gotten a little out of hand on some of the threads, I've noticed. Especially between the "new" guys and the "old" guys. I really think we all take ourselves too seriously sometimes. BTW, Maiden, I haven't started building a new guitar yet...but I am planning to start one come August after I'm done with the bar exam. Prolly do a Rhodes-V neck-through with a Carvin neck and either black walnut or zebrawood sides, Original Floyd, and a Lawrence L-500 with tone signal path/coil split switch. It's still all up in the air, just random ideas for now. I did finally finish up the last of my electronic mods to my Strat, which was just replacing the pots, going to master tone, coil-splitting the new pickups, and cleaning up the Afterburner installation. I might do a veneer/refinish on the Strat eventually, but we'll see what happens with the Rhodes-V first. Okay, now that I've totally hijacked this thread... Quote Link to comment
Maiden69 Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 the strat that's the one I was refering to. Ok, see you around. Quote Link to comment
LukeR Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 THREE YEARS FOR AN LLB? Where is that? What school are you at? Im in MY third year at Law school (you can ask fehgalloway ). (Or my mum) I cant say that I have ever heard of a three year law degree here... and frankly, I dont see how that can work. We have a 4 year course, and an hons program before we can practice. Which contry are you in? Pm me for a chat- we can swap notes, haha! Luke Quote Link to comment
crafty Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 I live in the USA. The way our system works here is a little different now. Law school use to be about getting your LLB (bachelor's) and then an LLM (master's) later on. After you got an LLB you'd apprentice for about a year or so and then you'd sit for the bar. In modern US law schools, you get your bachelor's degree in whatever at University first. I have a business admin bachelor's (BBA). Then you go to law school and get a JD (Juris Doctor). If you want, you can also still get an LLM in a specialty either at the same time or in the future. I don't know of any American universities that still give out LLB's, though. I think they stopped back in the '70s. After you get your JD, which HAS to take at least three years but no more than six, according to the American Bar Association, you sit for the bar exam and then get licensed to practice. No internship is required, but I have clerked for a judge and worked for a prosecutor. It sounds like you're over in Great Britain. I have a cousin in Canada who received her JD but still has to practice under another lawyer before she can be licensed. It sounds essentially like the same system you have. So in the USA it's at least seven years from the time you start your bachelor's until you get your JD and are licensed to practice law. Be happy you only have five years I hate hijacking threads, so feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this anytime. I'll give you my email then, too. Quote Link to comment
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