How Thin Can I Go?

[ByronBlack]

Here is a quick drawing i've done in photoshop using mm scale, i've used mostly regular thicknesses for the neck, fingerboard and TOM so far it's looking doable. Anyone see anything wrong or glaringly obvious that i've not thought of??

Pic of scale drawing

[frank falbo]

How thick is your neck?? Oh, 20-21mmm.... That seems to be holding up fine doesnt it....

How wide is your neck?? Oh, about 6-8 times narrower than the body....

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While I do think the thin body will work, I had to point out that guitar necks aren't "holding up fine" and that's why they all have truss rods. If there's a chance to bust Perry on his choice of words I have to do it. Furthermore, the main section of the guitar will be drastically thinned out under the pickup routs. So there is a possibility of some movement. The good news is that it should all be within range of adjustability at the bridge over time. If you leave enough meat around the neck joint, your neck pickup route shouldn't be an issue either. But I would say a bolt neck is completely out of the question. You also say the pickups will be direct mount. I don't think that's a good idea because there won't be that much wood behind the route. You might pop out the back, or not have enough wood for a good thread bite.

As for the attitudes, I don't see any that are out of line. If you think you see some attitude, just stop and ask the person if you're understanding them correctly before getting defensive. Perry's first answer was lighthearted as I read it.

[ByronBlack]

I'll have to check the depths with the pup routes - thanks for bringing that up.

[jay5]

This will most definitly not be a bolt-on but rather a very deep set-neck about half-way to a neck-thru.

That will be key. I was going to suggest that. It should give you the best chance of success at least. That would be the strongest neck joint I think you could do in this situation.

[frank falbo]

It's not so much the pickup route itself, but the screws it takes to mount it. I'm not sure I made that clear. Especially with a traditional pickup that has the ears lowered. You'll never get a good mount that way. You could put the screws in from the back and put foam under the pickup. Just drill two holes from underneath and countersink them.

With no neck pickup the guitar should be fine. Take the neck joint all the way into the bridge pickup route so it disappears inside there.

[ByronBlack]

It's not so much the pickup route itself, but the screws it takes to mount it. I'm not sure I made that clear. Especially with a traditional pickup that has the ears lowered. You'll never get a good mount that way. You could put the screws in from the back and put foam under the pickup. Just drill two holes from underneath and countersink them.

With no neck pickup the guitar should be fine. Take the neck joint all the way into the bridge pickup route so it disappears inside there.

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The first idea of countersinking the screws from behind seems like a great idea - easy to hide with wooden caps too !!

As for the second part, this was exactly what I was thinking, it will make the join a little less abrubt if it starts part way through the pup route.

I'm feeling pretty confident about this now.

The only thing that is currently an issue would be a cavity for the jackplate - I entend not to have any pots at all - full volume and full tone are the only way I tend to play. If I was to use a rear-mounted strat style jackplate, do you know how much space I would need? I don't have a strat jack at hand, and can't find the depth measurements online..

Ah scrap that last question, just read on stew-macs i'll need a 14mm rout - this shouldn't be too much of a problem either..

[brian d]

The only thing that is currently an issue would be a cavity for the jackplate - I entend not to have any pots at all - full volume and full tone are the only way I tend to play. If I was to use a rear-mounted strat style jackplate, do you know how much space I would need? I don't have a strat jack at hand, and can't find the depth measurements online..

Ah scrap that last question, just read on stew-macs i'll need a 14mm rout - this shouldn't be too much of a problem either..

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Hey there Byron,

I don't mean to rain on you're parade, but I just measured a strat jackplate and while it is only about 14 mm for the plate itself, with the PL jack mounted in it, it is 29mm from the top of the plate to the tip of the (angled) jack.

The jack itself has a 19mm diameter, so if you mount it "parallel" to the body, you will have slighly less than 3 mm of wood left at the front and back of it.

I am working on a thin body at the moment and had the same problem. In the end I took some 1mm thick metal plate and cut it into a jack plate size and put the appropriate holes in it so it can be mounted on a side of the guitar (sort of like a Gibson). Maybe you could even use a Gibson jack-plate - I couldn't because mine's mounted on a flat surface, not on a curve like the Gibson.

The good news is that it is doable in a 25mm body - but barely.

Good luck with it,

Brian

[Mickguard]

The Melody Maker mounts the jack into a pickguard, that gives you an extra couple of millimeters to work with.

Still, I think you should rethink the idea.

I mean, why not try something funkier?

That 9 inch/50 mm piece of maple will make an awesome central column for a guitar --you could add wings to that. You could make a travel guitar. Make detachable wings. Make modular wings--instant body shape changes. House everything in the central column and make one wing with an extensive effects section, the second wing with a mini-power amp, mix steel and wood, incorporate tubular bells, etc. etc.

Part of what makes some guitar builders great (like Myka for one) is their willingness to explore other conceptions of what a guitar can be. As long as you're starting out, why not put some of that into your work?

[marksound]

The only thing that is currently an issue would be a cavity for the jackplate

Why not try an endpin jack like on an acoustic?

[rhoads56]

While I do think the thin body will work, I had to point out that guitar necks aren't "holding up fine" and that's why they all have truss rods. If there's a chance to bust Perry on his choice of words I have to do it.   

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Are you suggesting that a 25mm body will need a truss rod?

[ByronBlack]

The Melody Maker mounts the jack into a pickguard, that gives you an extra couple of millimeters to work with.

Still, I think you should rethink the idea.

I mean, why not try something funkier?

That 9 inch/50 mm piece of maple will make an awesome central column for a guitar --you could add wings to that. You could make a travel guitar. Make detachable wings. Make modular wings--instant body shape changes. House everything in the central column and make one wing with an extensive effects section, the second wing with a mini-power amp, mix steel and wood, incorporate tubular bells, etc. etc.

Part of what makes some guitar builders great (like Myka for one) is their willingness to explore other conceptions of what a guitar can be. As long as you're starting out, why not put some of that into your work?

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I like the idea of the tubular bells!!

There some great idea's, and maybe I can do some of those in a future design, I really like the idea of somehow mounting a Boss Metal Zone pedal's electrics into the body of a guitar, but I have a really nice piece of walnut coming that I won on ebay, so I think i'll leave it for that.

I was re-thinking about the jack last night, and come to roughly the same conclusion that a strat-style is probably not going to be as succesful as using a side-mounted gibson style jack. I have a couple of spare metal gibson jack plates, so I could use one of them, will need to grind the edges down a little, but again if i'm careful enough this may work.

[Mr.Churchyard]

There some great idea's, and maybe I can do some of those in a future design, I really like the idea of somehow mounting a Boss Metal Zone pedal's electrics into the body of a guitar...

Mumble, think, think...

oh my gosh

By the way, I have recently seen a guitar that had an Alesis AirFX put into it. Its name was the "Avantair" and was built by that genius luthier, Claudio Pagelli...

[frank falbo]

While I do think the thin body will work, I had to point out that guitar necks aren't "holding up fine" and that's why they all have truss rods. If there's a chance to bust Perry on his choice of words I have to do it.   

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Are you suggesting that a 25mm body will need a truss rod?

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Ha! No. I just thought it was funny that you said necks were "holding up fine" because they're not. Without the rod they'd be bananas. It just sounded funny the way you made your comparison. That's why my first point was to agree with the feasibility.

But it is true that guitar bodies can move over time. I've seen many guitars get a slight bow to them. Sometimes it manifests itself as less pullup on a trem, because the bridge has to sit a little deeper. Sometimes the pickups and/or T-o-M bottoms out. I've seen it on SG's, Sabers & Stealths, Melody Makers, etc. I started looking for it a long time ago with straight edges. I was interested in the effects of years (and decades) of string tension. Somewhat of a "the anatomy of vintage" study. Wood moves over time anyway. So while you couldn't say string tension was responsible, I never saw a body that bowed backwards. So to this day, I design my guitars with the bridge to have ample downward adjustment, like even until the strings rest on the fretboard. Byron, you'd be wise to do the same.

Also I'd go with an Ibanez style barrel jack. It solves all your problems. You would even have room to recess it a little, and recess the control cavity cover. There's room on that guitar for vol/tone pots, too.

[ByronBlack]

While I do think the thin body will work, I had to point out that guitar necks aren't "holding up fine" and that's why they all have truss rods. If there's a chance to bust Perry on his choice of words I have to do it.   

←

Are you suggesting that a 25mm body will need a truss rod?

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Ha! No. I just thought it was funny that you said necks were "holding up fine" because they're not. Without the rod they'd be bananas. It just sounded funny the way you made your comparison. That's why my first point was to agree with the feasibility.

But it is true that guitar bodies can move over time. I've seen many guitars get a slight bow to them. Sometimes it manifests itself as less pullup on a trem, because the bridge has to sit a little deeper. Sometimes the pickups and/or T-o-M bottoms out. I've seen it on SG's, Sabers & Stealths, Melody Makers, etc. I started looking for it a long time ago with straight edges. I was interested in the effects of years (and decades) of string tension. Somewhat of a "the anatomy of vintage" study. Wood moves over time anyway. So while you couldn't say string tension was responsible, I never saw a body that bowed backwards. So to this day, I design my guitars with the bridge to have ample downward adjustment, like even until the strings rest on the fretboard. Byron, you'd be wise to do the same.

Also I'd go with an Ibanez style barrel jack. It solves all your problems. You would even have room to recess it a little, and recess the control cavity cover. There's room on that guitar for vol/tone pots, too.

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Frank is what you mean about the jack?

Stew Mac Flush Mounted Jack

I've just ordered a couple for my current projects and thought it might be useful.

With regards the vol, tone pots, one of the reasons for not putting them on, is because I very rarely ever use them. I mostly play hard rock and metal rythm, and the bridge pickup is always selected on full vol and tone, never felt the need to change them, and I quite like the idea of having a super simple, plug-in and play type of guitar with very clean lines.

If this project works, i'll do another with full electrics, (need to practice electrics, I can barely use a soldering iron :-)

Thanks for all your idea's, and i'll take note of the point about the bridge..

[Mattia]

Ha! No. I just thought it was funny that you said necks were "holding up fine" because they're not. Without the rod they'd be bananas. It just sounded funny the way you made your comparison. That's why my first point was to agree with the feasibility.

To a point, I'd say. There are quite a number of guitars out there that play just fine for a very long time, sans rod, including acoustics. As I see it, the rod's there to correct slow creep over time, to maintain a constant amounts of relief (which could, theoretically, be adjusted on the 'board itself), not for neck reinforcement. A set of 9's isn't exactly a huge amount of tension. If I want to reinforce my necks (and I do, all of them, because it's cheap insurance), I use carbon fibre.

[Daniel Sorbera]

I also am doing a super thing guitar (a hair over 1") And I havnt routed the pickups yet and I'm wondering if I should rout a neck pickup. Will it be strong enough with the neck pickup rout up aganist the neck pocket? The pickup would have to be routed 3/4" deep so that would leave 1/4" wood behind it. But my design is somwhat like a PRS where the fingerboard is like at the body. So there wouldn't be much (if any) wood to the sides holding onto the neck. I just don't see how thers going to be enough strgenth left in the wood to hold onto the neck.

[jmrentis]

I just had a thought and I want someone to tell me if it's possible, if so it might help with the thin guitar but I doubt it. Well I just glanced at my ibanez powersound pickup, I had replaced them with DiMarzios a couple months ago, and it looks like to me at least that you could take the bottom plate off, the part with the ears, and possibly flip it upside down. That might give you more room for the screws, if your worried about the screws going through the back, as well as taking a shorter route which could be useful. Again I don't know if this is actually possible, I mean if someone was very serious then some slight mods to a pickup wouldn't be a big deal, it just looked like a couple small screws, but I have no idea is there is any solder on the inside of the plate, I'm not too familiar with the insides of a pickup. One problem I could see is the thread direction, but maybe that isn't a problem, also depends on the design of the plate it the middle is truly flat or has sides that stick up, I don't know and I can't say that all pickups are like the powersounds, but they did look very close to the same as my tone zone.

Anyways just a thought to throw out there,I will not be doing any thin guitars like this but maybe it will work and help some people with the thin guitars I'll let that be decided by the experienced folks here, good luck. Jason