Refret Or New Neck?

[crafty]

Hey y'all.

My beloved 1995 MIM Strat is in need of some help. I've never really liked the vintage frets that originally came on the guitar and now they're worn down to the point of needing either a good leveling and dressing or just a full refret. It's now my backup guitar and I've never really tried to preserve the value of the instrument, so I was thinking about attempting to refret the guitar myself. There's a couple of issues I have with this:

1. It would be cheaper to pick up a brand new neck from a shop like Warmoth or Carvin than to spend my time and money on the tools to get it done.

2. But I really DON'T want to replace the neck because I like how it's broken in over the years and how it feels now, other than the frets.

Discuss.

[JohnRossitter]

Ask yourself the following:

If I screw the fingerboard up refretting...can I live with the guilt?

How much would a new Warmoth neck be?

How much would tools be?

There is certainly a lot to be said a job well done, but there is also a lot to be said about how difficult it can be to do a good job on your first projects.

There are a lot of great tools out there for refretting, but in a lot of cases you can avoid using them.

You don't have to have tang nippers if you have a belt sander.

You don't have to have pullers if you have a good set of micro dikes(sp?)

You don't have to have an arbor press if you have a drill press.

You don't have to have a fretwire radius tool if you have 3 nails and a pair of plyers.

However I would reccomend that you don't start out on a great guitar neck. I would go to a pawn shop and get a cheap guitar and practice on it.

Good luck with it...you can do it if you put your mind to it.

[fryovanni]

Dare I say you could take it to a Professional and get a quote(just an option). You seem to like the neck, so replacing it seems like the wrong way to go. From what I make of your question. You can't tell if the job requires a re-fret or just a bit of touch up. Have the frets been worked on before?

Peace,Rich

[crafty]

Dare I say you could take it to a Professional and get a quote(just an option). You seem to like the neck, so replacing it seems like the wrong way to go. From what I make of your question. You can't tell if the job requires a re-fret or just a bit of touch up. Have the frets been worked on before?

Peace,Rich

Yeah, I just tried looking up a local luthier I used to do some business with, but it looks like he's out of business now. I do feel sort of silly about the whole thing because it is just a MIM Strat neck. But you know that really cool "broken-in" sort of pool-cue feeling? It'd take me years just to break in a new neck like that. The store I bought it from down in Norman, OK has a Plek machine and all that, but I live pretty far away from there now and it'd be a pain in the ass to get it there and back.

The frets haven't been worked on before and I'm just concerned that if they were recrowned that they'd have even less height and it'd play even worse. I really should ask around and find a pro to do it. I could probably do it myself, but I just know it'd wind up being a hand-cutter like those nasty First Acts at Wal-Mart.

[soapbarstrat]

Yeah, I just tried looking up a local luthier I used to do some business with, but it looks like he's out of business now.

He finally wised up (I've been very tempted to join the party, too)

As for PLEK. I find it interested what someone on another forum said that luthier John Ingram (not sure if I spelled that right) said about PLEK. He said something like " It's close, but for that kind of money, do you want close, or do you want it right ? "

Where you can mess up the neck, is with how you level the fret-board, mostly. Frets can get messed up and replaced, and it's not too big of a deal. My first couple of fret-jobs were a real mess, and I did do irreversible damage (Well, irreversible damage is what teenagers do best). I did make what were a couple of nice necks into more of "scrap necks", because I didn't know what I was doing. I *thought* I knew what I was doing before I actually started doing it, because I thought it's not a life and death matter, and the printed info I read made it seem more predictable than it often really is.

And, I've said something like this more than once : no fret job at all, is a hell of a lot nicer than a bad fret job.

[crafty]

And, I've said something like this more than once : no fret job at all, is a hell of a lot nicer than a bad fret job.

True. I have noticed some pretty bad refrets over the years. Perfectly good guitars just mangled by people wielding ball-peen hammers. I definitely do not want to be like that.

I just found a place in town that parts out cheap Asian guitars that come off the boat all busted to hell and sells the necks for like, $20-$30. I might pick one up and practice a little before I try it on a guitar I actually do care about. I could even try a few different sizes of fretwire and see how well they all work, too.

Edited November 4, 2006 by crafty

[Southpa]

Keep your MIM neck and do a levelling / dressing job on the existing frets. If you don't like it you can always yank them and refret. At least you got some practice in and you are exercising your options. Last resort is to buy another neck when yours is perfectly fine er, aside from the frets. And precticing on affordable necks is a good idea, who knows You might find one you like!

I've learned to do my fretwork with the most basic tools and things work out just fine.

green masking tape

Filed down end nippers

24" straight edge

3" straight edge

hobbyist's hammer

In the event that all the frets don't even up (but they should) I would level/dress them with:

medium bastard file or straight fine/coarse 8" stone

triangular file

320 - 1500 grit paper

000 steel wool

I've also been using Stwemac's stainless fb protectors for minor adjustments after the tape is off.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Southpa

[Setch]

You should be able to reftret with pretty minimal equipment, much less than the price of a new neck.

Get a good straight edge, and make the rest of the tools. A small pair of end cutters, ground flat and flush, make good fret pullers. A larger pair of end or side cutters, similarly ground, make good fret cutters. A small hammer can have the face polished smooth and used to hammer the frets, or you could contrust a press fairly easily - I have a small one made from an old drill stand (the cheapo - clamp in a hand drill variety) which works very well on RW fretboards, though it struggles with ebony.

A carpenters level with fine grit wet or dry stuck to it will make a good leveller, and a small, safe ground triangular file will workl well for crowning. Then, more wet or dry, and some steel wool and metal polish to shine 'em up.

Shouldn't be any where near the price of a Warmoth or Carvin neck, unless they're a damn site cheaper than I remember!

[ryanb]

I agree completely with what Setch said. You already have the neck you like, so there's certainly no reason to change it. If you don't like the frets you have, you certainly should change them to something you do like. You could learn to do the work yourself without spending too much money. Or, if you don't feel confident at that, you could get a refret done professionally and still be less expensive than a new neck (do the new ones even come with a fret level and crown or does that still have to be done anyway?). If you can get the "junk" necks to practice on, definitely go for that. Think of it as a skill that will pay off for you down the road every time you need fret work done.

[guitar2005]

Refret it yourself. Patience is key and preparation is important. Make sure you have the right tools and get the fretting book from Stew Mac.

I just had my last "pro" refret done a couple of weeks ago. I didn't have the fret tang nippers or the time to do the work myself before my next show. I've done refrets before (unbound fretboards) so I know how to do them but this fretboard was bound and I needed the work done in a week's time.

When I got the guitar back (1974 Les Paul Custom), the strings were 1/4" off the fretboard. When I lowered the action I had buzzing all over the lower registers (frets 1-11). I tell the guy that the neck now has a backbow from installinh frets with a tang that was too wide

He tells me to bring the guitar back. When I get the guitar back, The buzzing is less noticeable but he filed down the frets to less that 0.03" !$%! from about frets 2 to 11. The orginal size was 0.05". I still can't believe it. This is a guy that does this for a living - a PRO! What a waste of time and money.

I'll redo the job when I have a bit of time.

Learn to do it yourself. Its worth the time and investment in the tools. just be PATIENT.

[Sonar]

As for PLEK. I find it interested what someone on another forum said that luthier John Ingram (not sure if I spelled that right) said about PLEK. He said something like " It's close, but for that kind of money, do you want close, or do you want it right ? "

"It's close, but for that kind of money, do you want close, or do you want it right?"

What in the world is THAT second hand Orkie quote supposed to mean? Sounds like a recycled Al Sharpton line.

I've got a John Ingram (Orkie) refret on a wonderful mid-'80s ESP 400 Series Strat-style (the "up-priced" job where I was charged an extra $50 to pay special attention to the fret ends). It was approximately $350 five years ago.....and YES, the refret cost me MORE than the entire guitar's purchase price.

And it got even better after it was PLEKED.

I guess my guitar is now "righter" or "rightest"!!

NOTE: John Ingram is a fine fret guy and a colorful character but I'm not sure he knows much of anything about the PLEK. According to Keith L.'s post this summer at the FDP where John is said to still believe the PLEK uses lasers. (DISCLAIMER: I don't believe THIS second-hand story either as I give Orkie more credit for thinking before he speaks)

Keith L. (7/24/06): "John [ingram] feels that computers and lasers don't see the whole story, and a skilled craftsman can fix many things that a Plek can't."

But by extension of this logic, I'd say it's ALSO absolutely true that a skilled craftsman WITH A PLEK can fix many more things with demonstrable and verifiable results than any craftsman WITHOUT A PLEK.

The truth of the situation is that John Ingram has publically said nothing and published nothing on the subject of PLEK technology at all that I've ever see or heard.....so I'd hate to see anyone pretending otherwise.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Sonar

[postal]

I think a refret by a reputable repair person is the right way to go.

Doing a proper refret/levelling/dressing is not a complex thing, but it does have a lot of small steps that need to be done correctly. Discussing it and reading about it will inform you of the process, but it is not like actually doing it yourself. The best is to have someone that knows what they're show you and explain it as they do it, but good luck finding people out there willing to teach it. There are a lot of little tricks out there when it comes to doing this right, and no amount of reading will point the way like actually being taught how to do it right by someone who already knows.

Paying to have it done right will cost far less in the long run of trying to learn this crucial part on your own, and risk a neck you like in the process.

[westhemann]

my first fretting was a disaster...even with all of the advice on this site at the time...it's hard to really "understand" completely what you are told when you have no experience.

my second fretting i made absolutely sure my fretboard was completely level and perfectly radiused and that the slots were perfectly clean before i installed the frets...and when i pressed them in a paid special attention to getting them perfectly seated without compressing the wood under it...and it turned out perfectly.i never even had to level the frets..

now when i fret a neck i build...it never goes wrong.and with the ss frets i use now,it is always far and above better than the stuff you get on a guitar from a factory..my beast plays like absolute butter...too bad the shape of the guitar is so un-ergonomic.

but a refret is tougher still...because you have to get the frets out without the fretboard tearing out at the grain on each fret...that is difficult,but i think there are some tips in a tutorial on the main site for doing just that.

bottom line is i think nothing n a guitar is more difficult and painstaking as a proper fret job(aside from the finishing on a new one)

and nothing affects the playability so much...

but it is very rewarding when it is done right.

[crafty]

bottom line is i think nothing n a guitar is more difficult and painstaking as a proper fret job(aside from the finishing on a new one)

and nothing affects the playability so much...

but it is very rewarding when it is done right.

Hey Wes, good to see you back. I knew you couldn't stay away forever.

Anyway, I think I'm going to practice on a junk neck before I touch the good neck. I may even try re-radiusing and stuff like that before I jump on an instrument I really do care about. Funny how we all care about our instruments so much we're worried about screwing 'em up, yet people like Clapton and EVH really could care less about swapping out necks or otherwise f'ing 'em up.

[Southpa]

Those guys look at their guitars like a tradesman looks at his tools. You use it and when it stops working you just buy another.

[westhemann]

Those guys look at their guitars like a tradesman looks at his tools. You use it and when it stops working you just buy another.

i do pretty much the same thing.i believe in a little bit of guitar voodoo,but i believe i can perform that voodoo on a new instrument with just a small setup and a short breaking in period.

some guitars are more comfortable...but i have not fallen in love with a guitar since my very first one.

i keep looking for that instrument though...one day i willeither buy it or build it.

[Maiden69]

I do believe in replacing the neck too. And altho Warmoth necks are good, they still need a bit of fret dresing to make them nice! The same is true about Carvin necks, but I think that from the 2 I found that Cavin was a bit better. Maybe because of the graphite rods that help keep the neck straighter.

But I would surely start to practice in refreting, and dressing the frets, is not hard, but it requieres a lot of practice... well worth it IMO.

[soapbarstrat]

But by extension of this logic, I'd say it's ALSO absolutely true that a skilled craftsman WITH A PLEK can fix many more things with demonstrable and verifiable results than any craftsman WITHOUT A PLEK.

No thanks. Anything that's under the control of Microsoft Windows OS, is a little too likely to have surprise quirks that I wouldn't want to deal with.

Give it 5- 10 years, then maybe it'll get better.

As of now, it scans, grinds, and all that, with the guitar in a vertical position to "precise tolerances". including a precise amount of relief. One problem with that, is as soon as you put the guitar into the horizontal playing position, the neck relief amount is going to change at least a few thousandths of an inch.

But, glad you showed up here Sonar. Wondered where you went to on the other forum, where you also did a "hit and run" when a plek discussion came up. (I've never seen him/her discuss anything other than Plek, and he/she makes it clear that he/she is on a mission to fight to the death for Plek (LOL!). He/she also pulled a couple lines of mine out of context, to make it appear I'm on a rampage to destroy Plek. He/She should work for a tabloid rag with that 'out of context' talent)

You must have missed the Plek discussions over at the Gear Page. A guy in Germany got a little annoyed by some of my comments (I think his National pride was riding on Plek), until I told him I was in Germany at the time, then he mellowed out for some reason. I was almost going to bring up the computer/robot at a hospital in Germany near where I live there (since that's also a " human replacement" and an "advancement", and that this robot does botched operations a little too often (But that's all *second hand* info from my German wife (I can't read the articles in the German newspaper)).

Sonar needs some friends. Perhaps not liking me, could be enough to form some comradery with a couple members on *this* forum.

I'll tell ya what, Sonar, take those excellent playing Pleked guitars of yours, play the heck out of them, and make some great recordings. Shouldn't be long before all my customers take notice of you and want to know how you're doing it. Then I won't have anymore customers, and finally have every excuse in the world to go back into another line of work where I make 5 times more money. 5-10 years will go by, and I 'llstart to *hear* the difference Plek makes on recordings (can't figure out why I don't hear it now already). I'll keep working on my own guitars with my lousy stone-aged Erlewine 'neck-jig', and start getting frustrated that all these musicians have better playing guitars than I have ( ) . I mean it better happen that way, or how are you going to get closure ?

[GodBlessTexas]

I do feel sort of silly about the whole thing because it is just a MIM Strat neck. But you know that really cool "broken-in" sort of pool-cue feeling? It'd take me years just to break in a new neck like that.

And your explanation is exactly why you shouldn't feel silly about it. FYI, those 90's MIM necks were actually made in America and then finished/assembled in Mexico. There's lots of good stuff during those years, and one of my biggest regrets is selling my 1995 MIM Strat. Not only was it virtually perfect, but I sold it for less than it was really worth to me (though more than I paid). But it doesn't really matter where it was made. It matters if it feels right to you.