Difficult, Lumber Related, Moral Situation

[verhoevenc]

Ok, so we all know that when ordering lumber, especially on ebay and especially with figured woods, that checking is an everyday occurance that one can't help but just learn to accept and expect.

HOWEVER, I ordered a $100 piece of lumber that in the auction specifically stated that there was NO checking, TWICE in the auction itself, yet when it arrived it had checking (no more than anything else sent through a planer, but still definately there and still definately going to cause the yeild to be one fretboard fewer than if there was in fact no checking).

To complicate the situation, he pulled an auction early for me ($30 smaller auction) when I bought the $100 one, as a favor, which he obviously cited when I told him about the checking and his lying (more diplomatically than "lying" though).

And the last nugget: he's one of those sellers who waits until you've left HIS feedback to leave your's even though ALL he should be judging is my quick payment. IE: if I leave naything but shining feedback for him I'm sure he'll leave less than flattering ones for me.

The question of morality:

1- Does the fact checking is an industry norm exonerate him despite specifically mentioning this board had NONE, twice.

2- Does his kindness with pulling the other auction cover the other "lie" about checking, or should they be viewed as two seperate cases, in which case I'd have no choice but the judge him guilty on the lie.

Chris

[westhemann]

do you mean tearout?or splitting at the endgrain?"checking" in my vocabulary is something nitrocellulose finishes do after alot of years...

because usually the seller should say something like "this board should clean up at around (insert measurement here)"

wood almost always moves during shipping and needs prep work before using it...and the endgrain should have wax or clear over it to minimize splitting

[Setch]

Yeah, you'll have to clarify here.

Checking in timber means end grain splits, caused by the end grain drying out faster than the middle of the timber. This has *nothing* to do with how figured the wood is, or whether it's been run through a planer.

I think what you're referring to is chip out or tearout, which is common with figured wood, or wood which has been thickness planed by a machine. You need to read up on your terms and let us know which you mean.

I'm betting that the buyer is probably confused, and thinking '***?! there was no checking when I mailed it!".

[MiKro]

HI Chris,

I'm also convivced that you are refering to tearout or chipping from the planer. This occurs from the random direction of grain in curly, birdseye and quilted maple and other woods. Checking is as Setch described. The end grain is drying faster thus causing it to separate or check. Usually any type of figured wood should be dimensioned with a sander for the last few passes or having the knives on the planer shapened for this type of cut. The angle is different on the planer knives or jointer as well. Also indexable helix cutters produce a very nice surface for dimensioning figured wood as well. Hope this helps

Mike

[verhoevenc]

great.... now I feel like the a*s, I was under the understanding that checking was what happened when the blades of a planer chip out. Wonderful... I've got a bit of apologizing to do. Good thing I was civil about all this.

Chris

[fryovanni]

Chris,

Sorry to hear that. If it helps... Checking is usually referencing cracking. Planer "hit and miss" is commonly used to describe some bits that were surfaced and it still has a few low spots(but was left as is to not lose yeild across the entire board). usually 2s 4s and so forth lets you know how many sides are surfaced. These generally apply to lumber. Highly rare exotics(especially high density) like ebony, Zircote,Cocobolo,snakewood, rosewoods, pink ivory and so on.... are prone to checking(cracking) because they are difficult to dry(as well as some other flaws common to specific types). These are the flaws that dealers tend to make mention of, and because the woods are so rare(often sold by the pound) many of the standards used to describe dimension are not the same as regular lumber. 2" may indicate it is 2" at one side and may taper off at a corner to 1-3/4"(just depends on the dealer). Tricky stuff

Peace,Rich

[MiKro]

Chris,

All is well!! You at least asked and learned. Not a problem. we have all been there and felt, well like you do right now. Not a worry. You are not alone. We all learn from our mistakes. Hell ,I didn't know what a MILF was until recently. Damn, I know a lot of them LOL:) so don't feel stupid because you are not. On the other side of the coin, take some tie to visit some woodworking sites and learn.

What I mean is do you understand, SNIPE? This is also caused by a planer , drum sander. and jointer. THis and other subtle things can effect the wood you use. There are many more things as well. it's just a learning curve and don't kick yourself in the a$$ over it. We are here to help and I respect your input on things, (as stupid as they may be, my questions) your response as well.

So chill out, relax and we all care and understand.

Merry Christmas BUD!!!!

Sincerely,

Mike

Edited December 6, 2006 by MiKro

[westhemann]

MILF's rule!

[erikbojerik]

OK, MILF.....enlighten us!

It's not like a BACF, is it?

[terrax]

OK, MILF.....enlighten us!

It's not like a BACF, is it?

mother i'd like to f##k

dave

[westhemann]

its not supposed to be your own mom though...so don't start getting wierd

[Jon]

The question of morality:

1- Does the fact checking is an industry norm exonerate him despite specifically mentioning this board had NONE, twice.

2- Does his kindness with pulling the other auction cover the other "lie" about checking, or should they be viewed as two seperate cases, in which case I'd have no choice but the judge him guilty on the lie.

Chris

Even though this has been solved, I'd like to throw some things out there.

A lie is a lie regardless of generosity, this is the main reason I do not buy woods off of Ebay. Every board I have purchased has had some kind of defect not listed in the auction that has either prevented me using it in it's specific purpose or has caused more wood to be planed off, leading it to be useless for it's intended purpose again. I know this makes me sound like a hypocrite, coming from a guy that sells wood on Ebay (see my signature). But at least I list the defects.

So I think we should have a wood information list (defects, phrases etc.) stickied somewhere:

Bark incursion, wormholes, sniping, checking, chipping, jointed, drum sanded etc.etc. As I am still learning a good deal of these words used in woodworking. It would definitely help because I have learned almost all of these (and then some) from woodworking magazines.

[MiKro]

The question of morality:

1- Does the fact checking is an industry norm exonerate him despite specifically mentioning this board had NONE, twice.

2- Does his kindness with pulling the other auction cover the other "lie" about checking, or should they be viewed as two seperate cases, in which case I'd have no choice but the judge him guilty on the lie.

Chris

Even though this has been solved, I'd like to throw some things out there.

A lie is a lie regardless of generosity, this is the main reason I do not buy woods off of Ebay. Every board I have purchased has had some kind of defect not listed in the auction that has either prevented me using it in it's specific purpose or has caused more wood to be planed off, leading it to be useless for it's intended purpose again. I know this makes me sound like a hypocrite, coming from a guy that sells wood on Ebay (see my signature). But at least I list the defects.

So I think we should have a wood information list (defects, phrases etc.) stickied somewhere:

Bark incursion, wormholes, sniping, checking, chipping, jointed, drum sanded etc.etc. As I am still learning a good deal of these words used in woodworking. It would definitely help because I have learned almost all of these (and then some) from woodworking magazines.

I agree,

Since the MILF thing got a good laugh, I was also thinking that a good reference would not hurt either. So Jon would you like to work with me on a reference for these type of wood issues? I think with pictures and descriptions maybe we might be able to help those without the knowledge. I have many years of woodworking experience and will be more than happy to cause problems for photos if needed. LOL:))) I'm sure I can find scraps to do this with. How about it Jon, are you willing as well? This may take a little time but I think would be a worthwhile project.

Mike

[Jon]

I agree,

Since the MILF thing got a good laugh, I was also thinking that a good reference would not hurt either. So Jon would you like to work with me on a reference for these type of wood issues? I think with pictures and descriptions maybe we might be able to help those without the knowledge. I have many years of woodworking experience and will be more than happy to cause problems for photos if needed. LOL:))) I'm sure I can find scraps to do this with. How about it Jon, are you willing as well? This may take a little time but I think would be a worthwhile project.

Mike

More than willing.

So guys, let's hear some words or phrases that make little or no sense to you and we'll turn them into definitions with possible pictures for them. I have one board of Alder that is checking so that is taken care of. After we get enough words / phrases we'll compile a list or something and have it posted on the forums. Sound good?

[fryovanni]

I agree,

Since the MILF thing got a good laugh, I was also thinking that a good reference would not hurt either. So Jon would you like to work with me on a reference for these type of wood issues? I think with pictures and descriptions maybe we might be able to help those without the knowledge. I have many years of woodworking experience and will be more than happy to cause problems for photos if needed. LOL:))) I'm sure I can find scraps to do this with. How about it Jon, are you willing as well? This may take a little time but I think would be a worthwhile project.

Mike

More than willing.

So guys, let's hear some words or phrases that make little or no sense to you and we'll turn them into definitions with possible pictures for them. I have one board of Alder that is checking so that is taken care of. After we get enough words / phrases we'll compile a list or something and have it posted on the forums. Sound good?

Maybe the most confusion comes from what industry standards are(as there are many things that are not actually regulated by government standard, and some standards are regulated for trade reasons). How about starting with the a list of sources for these regulations.

As far as phrases or definitions;

Quartersawn-

Riftsawn

plainsawn

flatsawn

Boulesawn

scrabsawn

verticle grain

flitch

billet

cant

slab

log run

heartwood

sapwood

boxed heart

crotch

Green

air dried

partcially air dried(not green)

kiln dried

interlocked grain

steamed

sequential

bookmatched

check

crack

hit and miss

skip plained

surfaced

hand split

wain

live edge

hit

bird peck

knot

rough

s2s

s4s

common

common #1

common #2

SAB

Select

Select clears

FSC

runnout

endgrain

straight grain

clear

describe industry standard for quarter measure(4/4,8/4 etc..) and how it relates to rough and surfaced wood.

Maybe a list of common figure defs.

Quilted(blister,popcorn,tube etc...)

Birdsey

Cat eyes

Feathered

Curly

Flamed

Fiddleback

Beeswing

Waterfall

Ribbon

and so forth....Maybe a ballpark description of A,AA,AAA,AAAA,AAAAA, Musical grade, Master grade and so forth.

Peace,Rich

[Jon]

Fun. A few of those I haven't heard of, fiddleback, scrabsawn, and the "commons". This will be a fun learning experience!

[fryovanni]

Fun. A few of those I haven't heard of, fiddleback, scrabsawn, and the "commons". This will be a fun learning experience!

Fiddle back is a tight fine curl, not as fine as froghair curl.

scab sawn only heard it used a couple times(may totally be slang).-Basically meant wood scraps, or the clean up scraps from prepping to mill.

common is a grading term- Common is a lower grade than select.

Rough,common,common#2,common#1, First and second FAS, Select, select and better SAB, Superior are a few grades I am used to seeing.

Maybe a couple extra terms.

Pin knots

Pin holes

wild grain

heart check

worm holes

broken figure

There are just so many terms that are used. Some are not really standard, but more or less adopted by dealers. It will be fun to see a the list and info you guys compile. I bet it will help a lot to have a good reference.

Peace,Rich

[Jon]

That's exactly what I was thinking "common" meant, although I was expecting that kind of description called something along the line of "grades". Makes complete sense, thanks! I'll see what I can get together over the next few days.

[MiKro]

Very Cool!

Start getting the lists together, then we can work on pics and descriptions . This sounds like fun and a great learning tool for all.

Mike

Jon, PM or email me about maybe getting together for a beer and working on this.

MK

[verhoevenc]

Oh yeah! You guys are both Texas located. Talk about convenient volunteering lol

Chris

[westhemann]

dallas and fort worth are the same city.we call it dallas/fort worth on the maps

[verhoevenc]

Yes, I know this. Believe it or not, despite all my talk of international living, I was born in Texas.... hell not even the city! My birth certificate has "county" on it lol

Chris

PS: just so I dno't put ANOTHER post under wes, yes... proves authenticity

[westhemann]

all texas birth certificates say county..

[MiKro]

all texas birth certificates say county..

Now this is getting weird!!! LMAO:) So who wants to drive here for a beer or more ( I have plenty of Scotch, Rum, Vodka and Crown)? Sounds like fun to me!!!!!

I'm up for company LOL:))))))) My Kids aren't coming in town this year, so plenty of room LOL

Mike

[verhoevenc]

If I had tons of free money lying around, I'd be u p for a PG get together beer-a-thon BBQ something, thing. Alas... any and all cash from goes to lumber and tools lol

It's like the luthier catch 22 haahah

Chris