What Glues Dissolve Into The Wood?

[DrummerDude]

What glues are best for joining the laminated neck and the body wings on a neck-thru guitar?

I mean, yes, there are millions of options, but I read that the glue must absorb itself and not leave a film between the two joined surfaces.

It must somehow "melt" and "solder" the two wood blanks leaving nothing between them. It must not serve as a buffer and must not stop resonance.

Seems that gummy elastic glues or latex glues are not sutable here because they will dampen resonanse.

So, what glues absorb into the wood an dleave no film?

PS:

I think that somebody said that epoxy glues are OK for neck thru jobs but I think they leave a film, don't they?

[another doug]

Most people use titebond (original), unless I'm very much mistaken. I've used it with good results.

I'm assuming all your laminations are wood?

[DrummerDude]

Yes, no carbon stuff in there, just wood.

[cherokee6]

Do you have access to a biscuit joiner? You can probably use that and then a thin sheen of Titebond so there would be little squeeze out.

[marksound]

You don't need biscuits (unless you're hungry, then don't forget the gravy). Use Titebond Original--not Titebond II, not Titebond III, and definitely not Gorilla Glue. Make sure the mating surfaces are smooth and there are no gaps. Don't overclamp.

[Mickguard]

Ummm biscuits n' gravy...yummm.

Yeah, wood glue works really well for gluing wood. We don't have Titebond over here, so I just buy what's on the shelf. It works. I have trouble swallowing the whole mystique around Titebond, but then, I'm brand shy.

The whole nature of wood glue is that it seeps into the wood then forms a mesh of fibers with the fibers of the wood. That's why a glue joint is stronger than the wood around it.

[low end fuzz]

what you have to remember is this, a layer of glue is bad, not because there is a layer of glue there, but because if it is there, you dont have a solid joint of wood to wood;

i dont agree with the T3 bashing, i used it for everything before with no problems, but with everyoe raving about original i tried it;

conclusion, titebond original has to be watered down slightly to get a good consistancy to spread even and avoid glue lines;although it is cheaper, and can be seperated WAY easier with heat/steam than T3; i use it for fingerboards strictly now!

T3 is almost twice the price and pits in venneers (which isnt noticable on film finishes)

but the consistency is perfect and has more open time; i find

[DrummerDude]

The whole nature of wood glue is that it seeps into the wood then forms a mesh of fibers with the fibers of the wood. That's why a glue joint is stronger than the wood around it.

What particular type and brand of wood glue does that? This would be my choice.

I don't think I have access to the Titebond brand where I live but we have may other wood glues and they are all different - some are gummy and leave a rubber like resonance dumpening film, others are PVA and leave a thin nylon-like film inbetween the joined surfaces that also messes up resonance, others, like epoxy glues, leave a hard as glass film (not sure if this is a good a or a bad thing)...

I sure as hell know that any kind and brand of wood glue can join two wood pieces together.

I am asking which one of the millions of glues out there will be most suitable for joining guitar pieces without killing the resonance.

Why do people use that Titebond brand?

Because it is strong and durable OR because it is good for musical instruments?

Is it a glue that is especially developed for use on musical instruments?

Just looking for the right answer because I am a nit picker and I need the right kind of glue on my guitar.

Thanks, guys.

[marksound]

I recommend a visit to your local DIY shop and ask for a good water soluble wood glue.

[Mickguard]

What particular type and brand of wood glue does that? This would be my choice.

They all do, that's the whole point of a wood glue. There are other types of glues, like Gorilla Glue, that have a different purpose. But wood glue is wood glue. It's easy enough to see--just take a piece of scrap, spread your glue on there, watch it disappear.

I think the most essential part is making sure your joints are perfectly planed --if that's the case, then when you clamp the pieces together the EXCESS will seep out--whatever doesn't seep out will seep into the wood and form the joint.

I've read that you can prepare wood for glueing by applying a layer of glue to the surfaces, allowing that to seep in for a few minutes, then applying a new layer before you clamp.

At first I had a bottle of slow-drying wood glue. Later I picked up a bottle of fast-setting (5 minutes) glue....I've had good luck with the fast stuff, but since it sets so quickly, you have to work fast, have all your clamps set up and ready to go.

I wonder if one is really preferable to the other --is there a chance that the slow-setting glue has more time to seep into the wood, seeps deeper and therefore creates a better joint?

Another thing I've read is to be very careful about not letting any ferrous metals touch the joint as it's drying --it causes a chemical reaction that turns the glue line black. Which can be a useful thing if that's what you're trying to achieve.

Lastly, I wouldn't worry all that much about 'resonance dampening'....just more tone voodoo. Especially with a neckthrough.

[Setch]

People use titebond because it is strong, durable, constent, and has been used to assemble musical instruments for several decades.

There are glues formulated for luthiery, most notably the white glue sold by LMII, but regular titebond is just fine. Hot hide glue is the traditional choice, and used by many acoustic builders. It's desirable because it sets very hard, and can still be disamntled fairly easily using a combination of heat and moisture.

If titebond isn't available you can test the glues available by dipping a piece of tissue paper in the glue, and leaving it to dry. The glue should dry brittle, and shoukld crack when flexed. Abandon any glues which set rubbery or soft.

[aidlook]

others are PVA and leave a thin nylon-like film inbetween the joined surfaces that also messes up resonance, others, like epoxy glues, leave a hard as glass film (not sure if this is a good a or a bad thing)...

I sure as hell know that any kind and brand of wood glue can join two wood pieces together.

I am asking which one of the millions of glues out there will be most suitable for joining guitar pieces without killing the resonance.

You really think you could notice a difference in sound between different glues??

[westhemann]

titebond original has to be watered down slightly to get a good consistancy to spread even and avoid glue lines

pfft.don't make me laugh.

[low end fuzz]

titebond original has to be watered down slightly to get a good consistancy to spread even and avoid glue lines

pfft.don't make me laugh.

its called 'the easy life', T1 is too thick from the open time it has, anyone that has glued more than 2 pieces together at the same time should notice.

i fi wanted to make you laugh, id tell you, if a frog had wings, he wouldnt bump his ass when he hopped

[fryovanni]

People use titebond because it is strong, durable, constent, and has been used to assemble musical instruments for several decades.

There are glues formulated for luthiery, most notably the white glue sold by LMII, but regular titebond is just fine. Hot hide glue is the traditional choice, and used by many acoustic builders. It's desirable because it sets very hard, and can still be disamntled fairly easily using a combination of heat and moisture.

If titebond isn't available you can test the glues available by dipping a piece of tissue paper in the glue, and leaving it to dry. The glue should dry brittle, and shoukld crack when flexed. Abandon any glues which set rubbery or soft.

+1

Setch has nailed it. If you do a search you will find several topics that go into detail about glues and how to properly use them. Mick is correct that the wood glue needs to work its way into the pores, and a freshly plained surface provides the best glueing surface(avoid clogging the pores with dust before glueing). Titebond originals consitency out of the bottle helps provide enough thickness to allow the glue to be pressed into the pores well without squeezing out with light pressure and possibly even starving the glue joint. Thinning is not needed to make an invisible joint, and will make it harder to get a long lasting reliable joint. Between Titebond Original(easy to use, fairly long open time, use it right out of the bottle), HHG (sets fast, sets very hard, low creep, easy for future repairs), epoxy (works well when a gap is unavoidable), CA (sets fast, wicks easily because it is thin). You have good reliable glue options for just about any situation you will face.

Peace,Rich

[DrummerDude]

others are PVA and leave a thin nylon-like film inbetween the joined surfaces that also messes up resonance, others, like epoxy glues, leave a hard as glass film (not sure if this is a good a or a bad thing)...

I sure as hell know that any kind and brand of wood glue can join two wood pieces together.

I am asking which one of the millions of glues out there will be most suitable for joining guitar pieces without killing the resonance.

You really think you could notice a difference in sound between different glues??

I just read an article (or was it a forum topic? ...can't remember).

The guy claimed that using the right glue is essential for good tone. Too bad that he never mentioned any brand names.

Actually, I think it was a strange article about bolt ons being superior to set necks because of the direct wood-to-wood contact.

The author pointed that there are modern glues that dissolve the wood and practically make the set neck joint same as wood-to-wood without any glue barrier to kill the sustain.

[aidlook]

The thing is that there's often no evidence at all to back these 'theories'...they are just theories that made enough sense to someone for them to actually write it down. Just because someone wrote it doesn't make it true. That's the biggest problem with the internet, there is noone to stop articles from being published. And you have to be at least 10x as critical to things you read than usual.

[Jon]

The thing is that there's often no evidence at all to back these 'theories'...they are just theories that made enough sense to someone for them to actually write it down. Just because someone wrote it doesn't make it true. That's the biggest problem with the internet, there is noone to stop articles from being published. And you have to be at least 10x as critical to things you read than usual.

Nailed exactly what I was going to type out. Glue essential to tone? I wouldn't call it essential. The amount of glue in a multi-lam neck is such a small percentage, I wouldn't imagine it affecting the tone at all.

[fryovanni]

The thing is that there's often no evidence at all to back these 'theories'...they are just theories that made enough sense to someone for them to actually write it down. Just because someone wrote it doesn't make it true. That's the biggest problem with the internet, there is noone to stop articles from being published. And you have to be at least 10x as critical to things you read than usual.

Absolutely . You really have to cut through the muck. Often times someone says one thing(totally unfounded) and a person that reads it repeats it and so on and so forth.... With everyone repeating the same thing you add "validity" and next thing you know it is an uphill battle to disprove something that was never proven to begin with. Then you add the advertisers selling a product that present their theory as fact or over exagerate to sell product. That leads to even more confusion. Much like if it costs more it must be better(right). The person that knows what they are talking about that says something just is not that big of a deal or does not really work that way is generally ignored. Use common sense, your own personal experience, and try not to pass on mis-information(it just makes the whole problem worse).

Peace,Rich

I just read an article (or was it a forum topic? ...can't remember).

The guy claimed that using the right glue is essential for good tone. Too bad that he never mentioned any brand names.

Actually, I think it was a strange article about bolt ons being superior to set necks because of the direct wood-to-wood contact.

The author pointed that there are modern glues that dissolve the wood and practically make the set neck joint same as wood-to-wood without any glue barrier to kill the sustain.

Given that hide glue was used for a very long time before PV glues were developed, and those instruments lasted and had good tone. Does that mean that HHG is the "right" glue, and that all of the guitars that have been made using PV sound bad(there have been a lot of guitars made with HHG as well as PV)? Just does not make much sense. As far as wood to wood joint sounding better. Then no break in the wood should be far better yet. So why do vintage LP's sound good? Why do Strats sound good?,Why do neckthru soloists sound good?, How can Martins, and Taylors, and Breedloves all sound good? What kind of "barrier" could glue produce that would "kill sustain". A better question what is a guitar doing that makes it continue to vibrate longer? What other factors could dampen sustain and how significant would glue be in relation to these other factors?

What would you look for in a glue? Adequit strength. How much is needed? Waterproof. How often does your guitar get submersed or soaked(and what would that do to the instrument as a whole)? Extream heat resistance. How hot will your guitar get, and for how long(and what will this do to the instrument as a whole)? Reversable? Will your parts ever need to be dismantled for service or repair? Longevity and reliability. Is it important to you that the glue you choose has a track record of success in use on instruments.

Edited February 23, 2007 by fryovanni

[Mickguard]

The guy claimed that using the right glue is essential for good tone. Too bad that he never mentioned any brand names.

Sounds like Ed Roman or Zachary guitars...both of whom like to pretend that they invented guitar building. Although if it was Ed, he certainly would have mentioned brand names. Three times in the same paragraph. So Zachary then.

Dude, don't get hung up on this kind of detail --you should be spending more time making sure your joints are prepared properly. Once you start doing the work, you'll understand a hell of lot more than just reading about it. For me, a lot of these issues only became clear when I tackled them hands on. Reading is still essential, but it's just a step in the process.

Fryovanni mentioned something important--that you want your surfaces planed--that is, they should be rough, not sanded smooth. In fact, another tip I've read (I do a lot of reading) is to rough up the surface of the planed surfaces with 60 grit or so sandpaper. This helps the wood fibers mesh together, creating a more invisible joint. (You're just scuffing up the wood, not sanding it--you don't want to compromise the fit of the joint)

I don't look at a glue joint as a barrier to "tone" --I see it as a bridge, a network. Since the glue forms a MESH of fibers with the wood, then it makes sense that the surface to surface contact between the fibers of each piece of wood has been greatly increased. The more contact, the more tone that gets "transmitted".

That's the difference between wood glue and a mechanical glue, like CA or epoxy.

In other words, you can take the arguments against glue joints, flip 'em on their ass, and make an argument for 'em. Same as with most every 'tone quest' issue, really.

[Jon]

Sounds like Ed Roman or Zachary guitars...both of whom like to pretend that they invented guitar building. Although if it was Ed, he certainly would have mentioned brand names. Three times in the same paragraph. So Zachary then.

[DrummerDude]

The point of that article was not to comment on glue versus direct contact.

It was bad glue (that leaves a barrier) versus good glue (that absorns itself and "solders" the two wood pieces leaving nothing inbetween them).

I am jut trying to find the right glue because I read a lot of forum threads and many people talked about colored visible joints. Which, in turn, means that they used glues that leave a thin film (still thick enough to be visible) in between the joined surfaces.

In other words: what brand of glue creates that "mesh" of wood fibers and does NOT leave any film, guys?

Any wood glue? Epoxy-based wood glue? Hide glue? Tite-something? (I like titties )

Thanks.

[thegarehanman]

listEn, use titeboNd or some other pva wood glue. it dOes not reqUire that there be clearance between the two pieces beinG bonded for proper adHesion. 99% of the threads you see on this bOard are going to show people using your run of the mill white wood glue. there are a Few that make the misTake of using polyurethane glues or epoxies, but tHat's a whole other story. anyhow, If you see people complaining about a film, as you inSist upon calling it, what they really should be saying iS "I can not pLane the mating surfaces of these two boards properly, thus resuLting in a gap that coincIdentally filled with glue when i tried to glue the boards together." what i'm getting at is most of the visible glue liNes you see on this forum arE the reSult of bad joinery, not bad glue. honeStly, it happens. you have to start somewhere, and of course you'll make mistakes along the way. just don't confuse user error for flawed materials.

peace,

russ

[erikbojerik]

Too bad that he never mentioned any brand names.

That should tell you something.

it was a strange article about bolt ons being superior to set necks because of the direct wood-to-wood contact

Ever take a bolt-on neck off? Do you see actual wood-to-wood contact in the neck pocket? Or are there a couple of layers of clear coat in between...?

Sorry....my BS meter is pegged.

[Mattia]

Oh for CRYING OUT LOUD, dude; you keep asking the same exact question, all the answers are already there, but here's a short rundown anyway:

- I highly doubt a good glue joint will affect tone in any way on an electric instrument.

- There's plenty of evidence available that a freshly planed joint (staright off the plane, off to the gluing setup) gives the best, strongest joint. Al Carruth, an acoustic builder/sciency-type luthier who frequents several other guitarmaking forums, often brings up the WWII era experiment, where wooden props glued up with sanded surfaces were found to fail significantly more than those with planed surfaces.

- 'Roughing up' a gluing surface makes no sense to me at all, and your glue line should be invisible anyway.

- The quality of the glue joint is only as good as the joint itself; it should be tight, zero light escaping, no gaps ANYWHERE (or you will see the line clearly, I promise you) without having to clamp the hell out of it. Then apply an even film of glue, just enough that good clamping (see next point) will leave an even bead of squeezout all around the edge. Not large goopy piles, just a nice, even bead.

- Clamping: I've never been able to 'starve' a glue joint by clamping. The only glue I can think of that is starvable is epoxy, so clamp hard.

Short glue primer:

- Almost all common glues used in lutherie (PVA/AR glues - like Titebond, Polyurethane glues, CA, Hide Glue and Epoxy) have good adhesive strenght (sticks things together) and fairly poor cohesive strength (sticks to itself), EXCEPT EPOXY. Epoxy has very good cohesive strength, and moderate adhesive strength; it needs something 'rough' to 'bite' into, and needs a bit of glue line, because you can squeeze too much out for it to work. All the other glues, clamp away (especially polyurethanes, which expand, and the resulting foamy stuff is absolutely worthless in terms of sticking things together; all air, no strength). Look at the reccomended clamping pressure for titebond, for example; you likely never reach that with the clamps you've got.

- There's a reason (several, in fact) Titebond is popular - Setch already covered that ground. It dries harder than most, and LEF's full of nonsense when he claims the open time is too short, and it shoudl be diluted. Dilution can only add more water to the joint (bad) and less glue (bad); 5 minutes of open time is more than you should ever need for any guitar-related application.

- Hot Hide glue is the best glue for invisible joints, hands down. But you must have PERFECT joinery, and work FAST (open time: a lot less than a minute). Don't even consider the bottled, pre-mixed stuff. Titebond will do everything you want it to, if your joinery and clamping is good. There are no shortcuts. Polyurethane is more likely to leave a visible line, ditto epoxy, so probably not your best bet.

If you can't do it with titebond, the fault is yours, not the glue's.

here endeth the rant.