tim_ado Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 QUOTE FROM GUESTBOOK ace: hey cool guitars, im gunna make my own haha looks like you and moser have to chase this guy down aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 As above, only pay heed if they can send official e-mails, from there official adress, and explain what laws they can use. If they can't explain or show you what your doing in a proper legal way, then theyr'e BSing. E-mail them, ask them for a full legal explanation as to what they can and are threatening to do, but I bet it doesn't even exsist. Whatever, if i were you I'd be tempted to make a "Moser-sucks-ass-o-caster" next, not a copy, but not something they'll like much. Seriously, just remember that at the end of the day, if they are gonna chase you down, you have a huge amount of support here, and instead of merely putting one person of Moser for life, theyr'e aggrovating a lot more who sympathise with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 QUOTE QUOTE FROM GUESTBOOK ace: hey cool guitars, im gunna make my own haha looks like you and moser have to chase this guy down aswell i know! cheeky bugger. hehe well, wise or not, iv sent a message via the contact page on the moser site, to see if this is a genuine message, or just forum people with scare tactics. iv been very nice and pleasant, and have made my, and your feelings about the 'copying' known. so i shall await a reply from them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 yeah and if there as unprofessional as to post threats of a lawsuit in a guestbook and not in something more formal e.g email, letter, by phone i wouldnt be to worried as for the other people slamming them .............they can make there own guitars(or can they??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_the_damned Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 (edited) I can't believe they're still having a go at you. Its a design feature. It'd be like Gibson sueing someone for having a T-O-M bridge or an angled neck, you just can't do that unless you have a patent for that particular feature. And they don't go handing out patents for nothing. I mean its not like you've traced the body shape and are offering it as a Neil Moser guitar! Even the single cut you've done looks very differant to his model and as I said before: you've changed the wave anyway (its carved rather than flat) so technically it isn't even the same feature anymore. That'd be like saying fender could sue Ibanez for their RG because its a direct strat rip-off, which it isn't, its general idea is based on the strat but nothing more. as for the whole lycos thing I wouldn't take that as being serious. Maybe contact MetalMatt, he's had dealings with Moser, maybe he can put you in direct contact with him so you can talk to him about it. Personally I think they're just jelious that you took his idea and did it better! Edited May 23, 2007 by Robert_the_damned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Maybe contact MetalMatt, he's had dealings with Moser, maybe he can put you in direct contact with him so you can talk to him about it. Well I have All ready been talking with neal about this, I have asked Neal if he would Like to talk one on one with hooglebug so hooglebug if your Willing than I would say that it would be best to try that From where I stand things have blown up a bit to much! but both sides have good points !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I loved how they look for a Lawyer on the Shredder forums. Very professional pretty much sums up that place though. Full of muppets that just want to throw aggro around from the other side of the internet. Forum full of idiots in my eyes, seen their attitude on other forums, wondered how long it would take for them to hit this place in some way. Anyone with half a clue about patent/trademark infringement would know that hooglebug has done nothing wrong. Especially in the light of the Gibson/PRS suit - only an idiot would confuse Moser's guitar and this one at point of sale. That said, seeing as so many on the Moser forums are overlooking the glaring differences, wonder what that makes them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawknife Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Since you came to the Moser forum to have your say, I came here to clear up my position. Firstly, the lawyer comment was a continuation of a joke from about a week ago, which you are quoting totally out of context. Secondly, the AF guitar site claims it as an original design. Thirdly, it IS for sale. And for the record, Neal has not contacted or made any comment to the AF guestbook. The wave top is Michael Vangerov's design, and it would be up to him to do anything about it. And your guys' knowledge of the BCR/ Moser relationship is seriously lacking a factual basis. So go back about your daily lives, and go outside once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 its all well and good that you should have your say as much as the posters on here should have theirs, and i agree that you should be diligent about people copying others designs. what i dont agree with is the way people from your forum have gone about this. there have been personal attacks toward me which are totally uncalled for. in no way have i tried to deliberately decieve people or try to conceal the fact that i took the inspiration for my guitar from that of the vangerov guitar. the reason it isnt mention on my site is for the simple fact that i simply forgot all about it until this started kicking off. anyway, iv pm-ed metal matt so that i can talk to mr. moser directly and see if we can get all this srted, and get the downright nasty and hateful comments to stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asomodai Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 I loved how they look for a Lawyer on the Shredder forums. Very professional pretty much sums up that place though. Full of muppets that just want to throw aggro around from the other side of the internet. Forum full of idiots in my eyes, seen their attitude on other forums, wondered how long it would take for them to hit this place in some way. Anyone with half a clue about patent/trademark infringement would know that hooglebug has done nothing wrong. Especially in the light of the Gibson/PRS suit - only an idiot would confuse Moser's guitar and this one at point of sale. That said, seeing as so many on the Moser forums are overlooking the glaring differences, wonder what that makes them? Err so that makes me an idiot right? I have been on both of these forums for a while yet i take great offense that i am a muppet and want to throw aggro around. I see why the shredderites are a bit unhappy. Because its such a unique design. But i also see theres probably no legal recourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 so who are you? you've come here to clear up your position?...so are you saying that you are the person making the comments on the guestbook? the AF guitar site claims it as an original design because it is. As already mentioned, the only similarity between this guitar & the Moser one is that they have a carved section in the top, nothing else. Does that mean that any guitar with a belly cut is unoriginal or with an f-hole or with dot markers on the fretboard? This guitar is as original as any other but the builder has acknowledged that it was inspired by another....just like Hamer, Jackson, Ibanez, Suhr, Tom Anderson, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawknife Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 (edited) Hoogle, can't you just delete the guestbook entries and be done with it? Not to sound flippant, but aren't you the one allowing this to continue. I am just a regular guy making guitars in my garage, so I don't speak with a lot of authority, but I think all you have to add is a "design inspired by a guitar I saw from Neal Moser/ MCS" and no one would have any problem with your selling them. At the end of the day, we as people have more in common than different. Congradulations on the project of the month thing. Calling each other stupid and "muppets" doesn't progress this situation one iota. So my final thought is, just credit the inspiration, and anybody that still has a problem is the one being childish. Bill Frog, What? No, I don't make threats. And you can't have it both ways, either the wave was inspired by something seen (as stated) or it is original. As I see it now, it is up to Hoogle where this goes now. I don't see why simply adding an "inspired by the MCS Vangerov" would cause any damage to AF Guitars. ANd it would take all the wind out of the sails of all complaints... Edited May 23, 2007 by drawknife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 amen to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 (edited) Hi, I'm from the MCS forum also and I did leave a little message in your guestbook. I believe you have borrowed MUCH more than just the wave from the top of this particuliar guitar, as do most others. For those who haven't seen both put up side by side..... The body angle is the same, the upper carve is the same, the shape is amost EXACT except for the added lower wing. Anybody else see why we might be upset about it? If it weren't for sale, we'd have made comments on how nice a job you'd done. The Shredder forum just watched as BC Rich filed a two year long lawsuit on Neal for building his OWN designs after screwing him out of royalties on the Bich and Virgin shape since 1993. So we tend to watch out for him on things like this. Some of the members can be rabid at times. Neal IS a real friend to many on the forum, and is a truly nice guy. I'm sure the two of you can work this out amongst you. Edited May 23, 2007 by rooster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 the moser pic doesn't show up for me but I just had a look: http://nealmoser.com/store/index.php?main_...products_id=214 What else is there?...colour, no...shape, no...inlay, no...controls, no....headstock, no....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawknife Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 (edited) Rooster photo link didn't work, so I'll try LOL, simul-posting. See Biliousfrog, we have lots in common... Edited May 23, 2007 by drawknife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 drawknife - i too am just a regular guy making guitars in my garage. the nly big tools i have is a drill press and a router - thats pretty much it. so yeah im not a cnc churning millions a day out kind of guy. as i said before, the reasn i didnt put anything about the moser guitar on my site is that i plain and simple forgot all about it. i know that might sound like a poor excuse, but thats just how it is. and for the record - i never called anyone stupid or a muppet. lol the reason i didnt take any messages from my guestbook is simply that if i had done that, i thought it might fuel more hatred - ie: taken off the bad ones and leaving the good ones. and rooster - as for taking more than just the wave - do you mean the fact that its a figured maple top, or a twin cutaway, or an offset lower bout, or a three-a-side headstock, or clean maple edges? i think gibson and fender and prs and anyone else who's ever used any of these things would have cause for complaint then. the simple and HONEST truth, is that the ONLY thing i took from that guitar was the shape of the wave. any other similarity is due to the fact that thats what suits the guitar better. i tried lots of different things, and this was the one that looked best to me. anyway, i await talking to mr. moser. in the meantime, i'll put some more things on my website, and see if it makes it worse or better and to further add to this - i was inspired by this guitar before i saw the moser one. harrison guitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 either the wave was inspired by something seen (as stated) or it is original. It is both Hooglebug has taken one design element from that other guitar - Just one!!! He has also taken elements from many other guitar designs. He has taken all those design elements and made an original guitar design. This is how design normally works - we build on what has gone before - nothing is ever 100% original! The shape of the wave is similar , but clearly different as well - it doesnt come around as far as the inspiration guitars and it doesnt act as a string anchor. There are no other similarities between the guitars other than having flamed maple tops, 3 a side headstocks (different shapes),dual humbuckers and they are both in the blue colour spectrum. a hell of a lot of guitars made by a hell of a lot of people also share those characteristics. . . . except for my designs - obviously they are all completely original from my own brain and no one else's and i have never layed eyes on a fernandes ravelle ever!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 When you compare the two side by side, Hooglebug's looks more like a PRS than it does the Moser. The only thing similar is the wave. If you hang those two side by side on the wall, no one would think they were the same thing. And the wave carve is a feature, so it is not something that can be protected. Or else Fender would sue anyone that uses a belly cut or arm cut, Gibson would sue anyone who uses a carve top, and Jackson (Fender) would sue anyone who uses a vee with a longer upper fin. There is absolutely no grounds to stand on and there is nothing similar about the two. You have to really stretch to think they are the same design. Gibson has more of a right to go after ESP for their copy of a Les Paul than anything here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 except for my designs - obviously they are all completely original from my own brain hehehe i've added a page to my website now, so hopefully people can now see that i never meant to cause any of this grief. and why are we fighting amongst ourselves? surely we must be united against the common enemy -simon cowell and his 'talent show' cronies!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Anybody else see why we might be upset about it? I can see how you might be upset, but I can't see at all how it's any of your business. And did you seriously think posting like that on his guestbook was the best way to go about it? Sheesh, do they cut off hands for stealing where you are too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 i realise i hijacked my own thread here, so i thought i might as well add an update the necks prett much done apart from the finish and a polish to the mirror here are the control cavity covers. you can see how im mounting the other three fuzz factory controls here so that they arent cluttering the top up like on mine, but are also easily adjusted on the back. the knobs dont stick out at all so wont be able to be caught accidentally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawknife Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Yes, the Origins Page clears everything up. Actually it comes off as a bit too apologetic, just state the core message, and trim the part about a fuss. Sharing ideas and inovations is what these forum communities are all about. Is this a primarily UK site? Most everybody has a UK location from what I have seen in my admittedly first day here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Nope we're from all over the place! I'm UK. Sorry if I said anything outta line, but there's above the board ways of dealing with things, and below the board ways. I detest the latter. Very nice hooglebug, I am loving the headstock and neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooglebug Posted May 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 there are people from all over the place on here. im noticing more uk people recently too, but theres plenty from everywhere else. and yeah i just read it and it does sound a bit 'im on my knees begging for you to forgive me!!!!' hehe. so i changed it. AND took off the guestbook page too, it was just too risky and as someone wrote on there, people could say anything and it would be attributed to me cos its my site. and metal matts asked mr. moser if he would like to talk to me about all this, and he's waiting for a reply, so i guess i'll just have to wait for that. also, you better all be chearing for liverpool tonight!!! if not, well, you're poopers. hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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