Humidity In The Shop

[bentwood999]

just wanted to ask what do you members use for humidity(what # on your gauge) in your shop when building the hotrods that you build (just curious) and is it controlled all the time?

hope i didnt open a can a worms.

[Daniel Sorbera]

I don't control the humidity in my shop, but I really should, especially since I'm getting into more acoustic stuff. Around 50% is a good range IIRC

[bentwood999]

thanks for the reply godin sd any more come on guys step up dont be shy

[Hector]

45%

[SnowGTR]

I'll build acoustics in the late spring and early fall when the humidity is around 40 to 45%. Electrics I’ll build when time permits, but I avoid the extremes.

[Rick500]

I don't really have a way to control the humidity in the garage, but I keep it at 45% in the house when the weather's dry.

[MiKro]

Ya'll worry too much. LOL:)) Only applies to finish if your wood is kiln dried. Otherwise for cabinet work the main thing is grain orientation. If you get it wrong then the doors will bow out otherwise not a problem

But 50% is a good #

MK

Edited June 16, 2007 by MiKro

[Woodenspoke]

Ya'll worry too much. LOL:)) Only applies to finish if your wood is kiln dried. Otherwise for cabinet work the main thing is grain orientation. If you get it wrong then the doors will bow out otherwise not a problem

But 50% is a good #

MK

I build only in the winter, early spring late fall months. If you think humidity is not problem in a shop you are wrong big time. Fret a fingerboard when the humidity is high and chances are you will be leveling the fret ends when the wood shrinks down in the dry winter months.

Wood comes in a dryness state from a source generally at 12% the day they ship it. After that its subject to the same humidity issues as it is in your shop. Without climate control the wood will swell and shrink given your humidity levels. I live in the NE and summer is a No building time without climate control.

Humidity is a serious issue and should be addressed in everyones shop or home shop..

Woodenspoke

Edited June 17, 2007 by Woodenspoke

[bentwood999]

Thanks for the replies guys woodenspoke you are so right i too live in the NE and i keep mine at a constant 50% at all times it is very important if you live in a high humid area. anyone else have some numbers?

[MiKro]

Ya'll worry too much. LOL:)) Only applies to finish if your wood is kiln dried. Otherwise for cabinet work the main thing is grain orientation. If you get it wrong then the doors will bow out otherwise not a problem

But 50% is a good #

MK

I build only in the winter, early spring late fall months. If you think humidity is not problem in a shop you are wrong big time. Fret a fingerboard when the humidity is high and chances are you will be leveling the fret ends when the wood shrinks down in the dry winter months.

Wood comes in a dryness state from a source generally at 7% the day they ship it. After that its subject to the same humidity issues as it is in your shop. Without climate control the wood will swell and shrink given your humidity levels. I live in the NE and summer is a No building time without climate control.

Humidity is a serious issue and should be addressed in everyones shop or home shop..

Woodenspoke

Spoke you are too serious at times, I'm sorry I pushed your red button. Maybe where you live it's a real problem. Never seen that though in the South? If your wood is at approx 12% give or take a few it's not a problem. If it was dried properly then the time it takes to change those properties to over % is BS. Now if you decide to soak your wood in H2O then it becomes a problem . I use a moisture meter and keep a humidity gauge in the shop, house and outside. I mean if you watch your house after the family all takes a shower then it's going up. Or when your boiling water in the kitchen. So Is that going to effect your wood? NO!!! so please don't try and snow me, I've been working with this stuff (wood) too damn long for that BS. All wood swells and shrinks with humidity,at different rates and that applies to the cut, type, thickness, finish and application of the wood. Now will wood set to an environment over years and change if moved to another that is drastically different, YES. Move a piano from NC on the east coast to Las Vegas after it sat in NC for 30 years and there will be a difference after time. Most likely splitting in the sound board due to the humidity change from 50% average to 15% So maybe you need to move to the South where you can build anytime.

Have a good one Spoke you I know I care about ya as well!!! Just want to get ya RYLED UP!!!!

LOL:))

Mike

[fryovanni]

Interesting takes on humidity. I agree that 45%(give or take 5%) is a good number for glueing and finishing(these are probably the most significant issues in our shops). Yes. Wood does shrink and swell with big changes in humidity. If the wood stabalizes to your shops humidity, and you maintain a humidity level that is relatively close to that level(no big, rapid swings) you are going to be fine. If anyone wants to argue that point tell me what that volumetric change in size of that wood will be based on the change in humidity(and don't give me a number based on "green" wood to 6%, give me a realistic swing like 6% to 12%). When wood goes through it's drying stages and finally reaches and equalibrium(between say 6 and 14% depending on you normal humidity). The wood will move a lot. After it has stabalized it does not accept or reject moisture as fast as it was capable of during the first drying process. This is why it is critical to bring it fully down to equalibrium before using it.

I would point out that no finish you put on a guitar will stop the seasonal transfer of moisture(although a good finish will slow and make these changes gradual and less damaging). So don't worry about micro managing humidity control, unless your humidity will not allow proper curing of glue or film finishes.

Acoustics can really get hammered by rapid changes in humidity(because the inside of the box is rarely finished(allowing for rapid changes). By default higher humidity will be safer than very low.

Anywho...That is my take and opinions FWIW.

Peace,Rich

Edited June 16, 2007 by fryovanni

[orgmorg]

I have a moisture meter, too, and for the past year or so, I have been trying to keep track of what my wood does from day to day. I started doing this because I was having all sorts of problems with wood moving around after I built something with it. I found that wood I brought into my shop at 8% MC ended up at 16%-18% after only a few weeks. This is in the middle of Tennessee, where it gets pretty darn humid. Early morning humidity can be 80%-100% in the summer, dropping to 50% in late afternoon. I have a room in my shop that I can keep at 45%, and that is where I keep any wood that I want to remain below 10% MC. This is from real life experience over several years, paid for in many ruined projects.

[erikbojerik]

Rough lumber usually spends 6-12 months stacked & stickered in my garage, going through all sorts of humidity changes through the seasons. Once I plane it down, I'll move it inside where the humidity is fairly constant at 35%-45% all year (we have a humidifier that we use indoors in the winter).

[MiKro]

Interesting takes on humidity. I agree that 45%(give or take 5%) is a good number for glueing and finishing(these are probably the most significant issues in our shops). Yes. Wood does shrink and swell with big changes in humidity. If the wood stabalizes to your shops humidity, and you maintain a humidity level that is relatively close to that level(no big, rapid swings) you are going to be fine. If anyone wants to argue that point tell me what that volumetric change in size of that wood will be based on the change in humidity(and don't give me a number based on "green" wood to 6%, give me a realistic swing like 6% to 12%). When wood goes through it's drying stages and finally reaches and equalibrium(between say 6 and 14% depending on you normal humidity). The wood will move a lot. After it has stabalized it does not accept or reject moisture as fast as it was capable of during the first drying process. This is why it is critical to bring it fully down to equalibrium before using it.

I would point out that no finish you put on a guitar will stop the seasonal transfer of moisture(although a good finish will slow and make these changes gradual and less damaging). So don't worry about micro managing humidity control, unless your humidity will not allow proper curing of glue or film finishes.

Acoustics can really get hammered by rapid changes in humidity(because the inside of the box is rarely finished(allowing for rapid changes). By default higher humidity will be safer than very low.

Anywho...That is my take and opinions FWIW.

Peace,Rich

I agree Rich,

My point was about cabinet work. I keep my shop at 50%. More importantly is the joinery of woods as this is where failure usually occurs due to the normal moisture changes in wood after the project is complete. Example: A raised panel door, the panel is left loose in the frame to allow for this. Approx, 1/8"to a 1/4" overall allowance(depending on species), usually pinned at 2 locations on the grain length but NOT across grain. The pinning cuts down on rattling when the door closes. a consistant Finish on all sides allows for more stabilty as well. As you said, and acoustic is vulnerable due to the fact of no finish inside. That coupled with a large surface area of thin wood makes the problem worse. If we followed the rule that you must veneer both sides equally as many in fine furniture suggest. we would not cap our guitars without doing so to the bottom as well.

I was making light of everyone worrying so much about the elusive magic #.

So peace out all.

MIKE

BTW Spoke, you are almost as stubborn headed as me. LOL:))) and the fret bender works fantastic!!!

Edited June 16, 2007 by MiKro

[orgmorg]

I don't know how magic the number is, but it is what ended up working for me, so I stick with it.

Very good points regarding finishing both sides of a panel. Another important consideration is alternating the endgrain ring patterns in a glued up panel, and using narrow boards to glue up.

What I mean by this is: if you look at the end of a flatsawn board, you will see the rings pointing up or down. As the wood dries, it will cup opposite of the way the rings are. By using narrower boards, and alternating the ring orientation, it averages out, and you don't have the whole panel cupping. There is probably better terminology for this, but it currently escapes me.

[Woodenspoke]

Mikro; Bite me and no you didn't push my button, and thanks for the bender plug. No one ever has to agree with me thats for sure, abuse me all you want (just no name calling) makes me feel like someone actually reads my posts. I think you mean the southwest desert not the south. Even though cabinet making is based on the same principles we really only have to concern ourselves with the grain oriented in a single direction. Yes I have seen some crazy designs like the Puzzle Bass,I would love to see if the surface is still flat or if you can feel the puzzle edges now.

For moisture I use the most up to date instrumentation ever designed. My secret is my special bio sensor, if I can feel its hot and humid outside as well as cool and humid inside my shop (basement), I dont work with wood, unless its with man made materials. So in the late spring summer and early fall I ride my bike instead. It works for me. I am looking to move to Colorado (north of Denver) where I hear the humidity is low, so maybe I will be doing more woodworking in the summer months.

I have an expensive moisture meter but rarely use it because I store enough wood that when I get to a project the wood has been in my shop for years not months and has been brought to a stable state. The only time I bring out the meter is when I am cutting a slab that I salvaged and want to make sure its dry enough to mill. Usually it was a neighbors tree I just couldn't refuse taking advantage of. I have 4 quarters (tree quarters) of pear wood that need to be milled, all the ends were sealed when it was cut and they are now around 12%, I have waited over 3 years to mill them. In this hobby patience is a virtue.

From what I can see from most first time builders is that they run to the store (or order online) get the wood they need and start the project. I'm not saying it will not work, because I have done it myself, I'm just wanted to mention most pro builders buy materials ahead of time and the wood is left to stabilize in the shop (the shop they build in) long before it is used.

Wood moves it is its nature, the object of working wood is knowing the material, its properties (slab cut or quartersaw) and its limitations. There really is no great answer to the question of shop humidity because it involves so many factors. A simple answer is low humidity over an extended period is good for working wood if you have no way to keep your shop conditions stable like me you make the best of what you have.

Woodenspoke

[MiKro]

Mikro; Bite me and no you didn't push my button, and thanks for the bender plug.(BITEME!! LOL:))

Your welcome for the plug No one ever has to agree with me thats for sure, abuse me all you want (just no name calling) If I did I apologize makes me feel like someone actually reads my posts.( I DO) I think you mean the southwest desert not the south ( well maybe that fits better). Even though cabinet making is based on the same principles we really only have to concern ourselves with the grain oriented in a single direction. Yes I have seen some crazy designs like the Puzzle Bass,I would love to see if the surface is still flat (most likely not)or if you can feel the puzzle edges now.

For moisture I use the most up to date instrumentation ever designed. My secret is my special bio sensor, if I can feel its hot and humid outside as well as cool and humid inside my shop (basement), I dont work with wood, unless its with man made materials. So in the late spring summer and early fall I ride my bike instead. It works for me. I am looking to move to Colorado (north of Denver) where I hear the humidity is low, so maybe I will be doing more woodworking in the summer months. ( I hope you enjoy Denver, a very nice city and I think you will like it)

I have an expensive moisture meter but rarely use it because I store enough wood (so do I)that when I get to a project the wood has been in my shop for years not months and has been brought to a stable state. The only time I bring out the meter is when I am cutting a slab that I salvaged and want to make sure its dry enough to mill. Usually it was a neighbors tree I just couldn't refuse taking advantage of. I have 4 quarters (tree quarters) of pear wood that need to be milled, all the ends were sealed when it was cut and they are now around 12%, I have waited over 3 years to mill them. In this hobby patience is a virtue.( I agree)

From what I can see from most first time builders is that they run to the store (or order online) get the wood they need and start the project. I'm not saying it will not work, because I have done it myself, I'm just wanted to mention most pro builders buy materials ahead of time and the wood is left to stabilize in the shop (the shop they build in) long before it is used. ( I agree 100%)

Wood moves it is its nature, the object of working wood is knowing the material, its properties (slab cut or quartersaw) and its limitations. There really is no great answer to the question of shop humidity because it involves so many factors. A simple answer is low humidity over an extended period is good for working wood if you have no way to keep your shop conditions stable like me you make the best of what you have. ( agree 100% on that as well, and must say thanks for the pointed response, I expected no less from you. I also agree that the NE has extreme conditions that will affect wood properties due to extended changes in Temp and humidity and therefore the shops in the NE must be more diligent about that. I also process a lot of wood as well. So Spoke we agree to disagree and be freinds as well. You take care and if you're ever in BigD I'll buy the beer.

Sincerely Mike

Woodenspoke

Thanks for the pointed response Spoke I expected nothing less from you LOL:)

see Red and Blue above.

Mike

Edited June 17, 2007 by MiKro

[Woodenspoke]

I dont remember anything you needed to apologize for in the first place Mike,.

That was North of Denver, Fort Collins or Loveland, I am trying to stay away from bigger cities just because I spent so much of my youth in one (NYC).

Just to keep this thread on the thread; Moisture Bad; Dry Good (and use voices from Young Frankenstein).

Woodenspoke (Bite me)

[tim_ado]

yeah i dont know i didnt build my bass in the middle of a storm but i was building in all seasons and jsut kept it in my room when i wasnt working on it

[fryovanni]

WS- You give a great trade secret. You want to improve your building... Read Woodenspokes quote, learn it and act on it.

In this hobby patience is a virtue

.

[bentwood999]

its great to here some responses to this thread (you live in NYC woodenspoke?) i live right next to you in CT (hows today for building NOT!!)

[ihocky2]

Since moving, I haven't had a chance to get any building done because I don't have my shop set up. It is going to end up being in the garage, which right now needs major cleaning and organizing. Once I get that done, my plan is to put a dehumidifier in there and try to keep it around 50% humidity. Unfortunately I can't use the basement for my shop, so I just have to make due with the garage. And since I don't have as much time in the spring or fall to build, most of it will get done in the summer. So I pretty much have to control the environment in the garage as best I can and try and keep everything stable. Any advice from guys who have garage shops would be a great help.