New Body Design

[avengers63]

Avenger

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...apele/a0102.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...apele/a0103.jpg

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/av...apele/a0104.jpg

This is the body I came up with. I dubbed it the Avenger. It's a modified version of the Dean Cadillac, which of course is a combination of an LP & Explorer.

This is the first body, so it's kind of a prototype. There will undoubtedly be slight tweaks here & there, but this is essentially it. This one is 2-piece sapele. The grain really explodes when it's moistened (see the last pic). I still have some work to do on the control recesses on the top. I'm considering a belly cut on this one, but I'm not sure yet.

I see this as being very versatile. Depending on the contouring, it could go anywhere from "artsy" with exotic caps and high-end materials/hardware with loads of bling to a poplar body workhorse painted a solid color.

I'd really love to hear any feedback you might have, positive or negative. Constructive would be best, but I'll take anything.

[jmrentis]

I actually like it quite a bit. It just looks a guitar that would be fun to play. Before reading the rest of your post, my first thought was to play around with the carve on it. I think you could do some interesting things with that build by using different carves. Well, nice stuff! Are you finishing this one up, neck and all, or it is being auctioned off? I was just curious cause I'd love to see what this body looks like finished with a neck and hardware. Good work and congrats on your design. J

[ElysianGuitars]

looks like a dean

[WAK Guitars]

Great shape! It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars. But yours is more balanced IMO. Keep it up!

[avengers63]

Thanks for the input. I hope it keeps coming!

looks like a dean

Which is what I said in the first paragraph. That was the original inspiration, but I wasn't fond of their lines. The bass side of the body meets the neck too low on the FB. The whole top left side of their body looks squished to me. I had the top of the left side meet up in the same place as a LP. The angle of that edge is paralell with the inside of the trebel horn.

The thought process in it was to take the top of an Explorer, the bottom of a LP, and balance them out. I wanted the sleek roundness of both models, but still have some angles to it.

It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars.

Yea, they did a curvier version. WesV does a similar one too (can't remember the name - sorry!)

Are you finishing this one up, neck and all, or it is being auctioned off? I was just curious cause I'd love to see what this body looks like finished with a neck and hardware.

I don't know yet. I might try and sell it, I might not. Eventually, you WILL see one of these things get finished, but I can't say when. I don't know if I'll be comfortable selling this one because if ONE cosmetic glitch: the recesses for the knobs aren't 100% centered. I know what I did wrong, so it'll NEVER happen again, but it's still off just a hair on a couple. Maybe I can flatten out the whole thing...

[Efilnickufesin]

I like the design but uh...

http://www.deanguitars.com/dean_winter_06/cadillac_1980.htm

oh, uh, just saw the post above me...nevermind

Edited August 18, 2008 by Efilnickufesin

[ElysianGuitars]

Thanks for the input. I hope it keeps coming!

looks like a dean

Which is what I said in the first paragraph. That was the original inspiration, but I wasn't fond of their lines. The bass side of the body meets the neck too low on the FB. The whole top left side of their body looks squished to me. I had the top of the left side meet up in the same place as a LP. The angle of that edge is paralell with the inside of the trebel horn.

The thought process in it was to take the top of an Explorer, the bottom of a LP, and balance them out. I wanted the sleek roundness of both models, but still have some angles to it.

It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars.

Yea, they did a curvier version. WesV does a similar one too (can't remember the name - sorry!)

Are you finishing this one up, neck and all, or it is being auctioned off? I was just curious cause I'd love to see what this body looks like finished with a neck and hardware.

I don't know yet. I might try and sell it, I might not. Eventually, you WILL see one of these things get finished, but I can't say when. I don't know if I'll be comfortable selling this one because if ONE cosmetic glitch: the recesses for the knobs aren't 100% centered. I know what I did wrong, so it'll NEVER happen again, but it's still off just a hair on a couple. Maybe I can flatten out the whole thing...

i really don't see the difference, it looks exactly the same to the link posted in the post above mine... to call it a new body design is a bit of a misnomer, as yours basically taking credit for dean's design...

[WezV]

It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars.

Yea, they did a curvier version. WesV does a similar one too (can't remember the name - sorry!)

i had to look up the paul stanley model.... mines much better!!!

[avengers63]

It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars.

Yea, they did a curvier version. WesV does a similar one too (can't remember the name - sorry!)

i had to look up the paul stanley model.... mines much better!!!

I'm sure they play better and have better Q/C, too.

[Batfink]

It kind of reminds me of a couple of those Washburn Paul Stanley guitars.

Yea, they did a curvier version. WesV does a similar one too (can't remember the name - sorry!)

i had to look up the paul stanley model.... mines much better!!!

I'm sure Fernandes would agree - just ribbing ya matey

[WezV]

I think my vendettas are better than the fernandes as well - although i have no problem admitting the ravelle was an inspiriation

i think i have done enough to make it my own

[avengers63]

i really don't see the difference, it looks exactly the same to the link posted in the post above mine... to call it a new body design is a bit of a misnomer, as yours basically taking credit for dean's design...

You're allowed your opinions, and this sort of thing is exactly what I was asking for. Good or bad, what do you think. So, without any hard feelings (debate only), let's look at them side by side.

The inspiration is clearly there. I confessed as much right off the top. There are several differences, though.

Trebel Body Horn:

1) The radius of the inside of the trebel horn is greater than Dean's.

2) The tip of the horn is paralell with the widest point of the body. Dean's is further inside.

3) Combine 1&2 and the shape and angles of the horn are different.

FWIW: The tip is also even with the top of the neck pocket. This makes the whole right side of it square. I was trying to match the Fibonacci ratio, which is 1.62:1, but a 13" wide body would be over 21" long, which is just too unwieldy. The ratio ended up about 1.3:1.

Bass Body Shoulder:

As the traditional guitar ratios are pleasing to the eye, I based the shoulder on the width of the LP. The widest point matched the width of a LP, however the tip of the arcs are in different locations.

1) It appears to me that the point of the shoulder is further out than Dean's, but I can't confirm this. The points of the arc may be at different horizontal lines, but from these pictures, it's dang hard to tell.

2) The angle of the top of Dean's shoulder is completely different. Theirs meets the body at the 19th fret. Mine will be in the area of the 15th. This is the main thing I wanted to change.

The end result is a design that is extremely similar to Dean's, but clearly not the same body. Therefore, the accusation of taking credit for Dean's design is false.

Just as Ibanez' RG is clearly modeled on the Strat (as are dozens of others), mine is modeled after the Cadillac, which was modeled after the LP & Explorer, the LP after the archtops, after acoustic drednaughts, after the classical body. At this point, one could look at any given body and point to an existing design as it's inspiration. It's whatever personal toughes you put on it that makes the difference.

[Geo]

To the uneducated eye, the only difference is the upper horn (not a horn in this shape, but that area), the neck pocket area and the cutaway. These differences become apparent when you look closely, but at a casual glance, it appears to be the same shape with a more rounded carve.

I'm not dissing you, I think both the Dean and yours are good designs. Just letting you know--if someone glances at it and says "it's the same as a Dean", it doesn't matter that you changed little things here and there. It still looks nearly the same.

The end result is a design that is extremely similar to Dean's, but clearly not the same body. Therefore, the accusation of taking credit for Dean's design is false.

Absolutely right... but just letting you know... the casual observer will see almost no difference.

[avengers63]

That's fair. I can't disagree with that assessment.

[heggis]

I like it, only thing that worries me is the distance from the treble cutaway to the neck pickup. Have you tried putting a pickup ring on there? Looks like it may come quite close to the cutaway... 

Heggis

[ElysianGuitars]

I like it, only thing that worries me is the distance from the treble cutaway to the neck pickup. Have you tried putting a pickup ring on there? Looks like it may come quite close to the cutaway... 

Heggis

wouldn't be a big deal if the pickups were direct mounted

[j. pierce]

The lower horn extending that far out makes the whole thing feel slightly off-center to me - not bad, it's just that every time I see a guitar who' horns extend to the same width as the lower bouts, it seems off kilter to me. Being only on one side adds to that. I'm not sure if I'm describing it properly. Of course, the lack of a neck, and the angle to the photos also adds to something that's vague enough I can't pinpoint it as it is, so whatever that's worth.

I'd also like to see more of a carve though - perhaps a bit of recurve like a gibson? Or just making the carve more pronounced across the front of the instrument - right now it seems more like a giant roundover more than anything else. (Of course, again, hard to tell from the photos.)

Again, these are just what I would do with *my* instrument, and I don't know how much that's actually worth. I do like what you've done though, and you definitely seem to have a goal and direction in mind with the design, and that's great.

As far as the control knob spots - if I understand you correctly, the holes for the pots are not in the center of the recesses? This happened to me - I used a plugged cutter, plugged the original holes, and redrilled new ones in the center of the recesses. I spent way too much time matching the grain, not even thinking about the fact that it won't be seen under the knobs. (Good practice, though, I suppose. - I managed to make it a mostly invisible seam.)

[avengers63]

only thing that worries me is the distance from the treble cutaway to the neck pickup

Good observation. I hadn't considered that yet. Good thing this is a sort of prototype. I'll lookinto it and see what needs to be tweaked...

wouldn't be a big deal if the pickups were direct mounted

...and if they don't fit with a ring, this becomes the solution.

I'd also like to see more of a carve though - perhaps a bit of recurve like a gibson? Or just making the carve more pronounced across the front of the instrument - right now it seems more like a giant roundover more than anything else.

if I understand you correctly, the holes for the pots are not in the center of the recesses?

You're spot-on on both accounts. I need to practice the atchtop recurve more on some cheap pine blanks before I try it on a "real" body. As it is now, it is a giant roundover. You can't deny it - those giant roundovers are pretty confortable.

Yea, the control holes are off center. I drilled the holes before making the recess with a forstner. In the future, I'll be making the recesses first and using the center hole from the forstner as a target for the other bit. Ah... the joys of the unmentored learning curve.

I think I'll be keeping this one for me. Mainly it's because of the mmnor errors. I wouldn't be comfortable trying to sell this one. A friend of mine has a neck he doesn't want that he said I could have. I'll get some cheap hardware, maybe experiment with some inexpensive pups I've been looking at, and let my girls have it to learn on. I'm always wrestling with my 14 & 12 y/o step-daughters to keep my "good" guitars where I know they're supposed to be. Maybe if I give them this one, they'll leave mine alone. I don't complain too much - at least they're wanting to learn.