Project 7_b

[Cam]

Looks good, I'm loving the Zebra Wood!

[avengers63]

I'll have to try wetsanding with mineral spirits sometime.

I'm loving the back on this one, but not the front. I like zebra, and I like it carved, but I don't like a carved strat-like shape.

[RestorationAD]

I'll have to try wetsanding with mineral spirits sometime.

I'm loving the back on this one, but not the front. I like zebra, and I like it carved, but I don't like a carved strat-like shape.

Before you try the mineral spirits trick let me see what it looks like this morning... and how the oil goes on.

[avengers63]

I'll have to try wetsanding with mineral spirits sometime.

I'm loving the back on this one, but not the front. I like zebra, and I like it carved, but I don't like a carved strat-like shape.

Before you try the mineral spirits trick let me see what it looks like this morning... and how the oil goes on.

cool

If it workes well, I'd probably only want to do it on a piece that's just getting oiled. Otherwise it'd make more sense to me to let the finish fill the grain and sand back.

[RestorationAD]

I'll have to try wetsanding with mineral spirits sometime.

I'm loving the back on this one, but not the front. I like zebra, and I like it carved, but I don't like a carved strat-like shape.

Before you try the mineral spirits trick let me see what it looks like this morning... and how the oil goes on.

cool

If it workes well, I'd probably only want to do it on a piece that's just getting oiled. Otherwise it'd make more sense to me to let the finish fill the grain and sand back.

I agree. It would only be for Oil finishes...

Any advice on Danish oil?

[WezV]

do one full heavy coat - leave 30 mins and wipe off. Hang it somewhere to dry overnight

then do wetsanding with 800+ wet and dry and the danish, buffing off the scum after every grit, leave to dry again - it will feel great at this stage

if you want to go further give it a buff with 0000 wire wool and briwax till happy. this minimises the need to re-oil in the future

[RestorationAD]

do one full heavy coat - leave 30 mins and wipe off. Hang it somewhere to dry overnight

then do wetsanding with 800+ wet and dry and the danish, buffing off the scum after every grit, leave to dry again - it will feel great at this stage

if you want to go further give it a buff with 0000 wire wool and briwax till happy. this minimises the need to re-oil in the future

That is what I was planning...

Thanks WezV... I was hoping you would chime in.

[avengers63]

Personally, I'd rather use linseed oil. But that's me.

[RestorationAD]

Personally, I'd rather use linseed oil. But that's me.

I have some of that too... I was thinking of Linseed + Bee's Wax...

Maybe on the next one.

[WezV]

the method i have suggested is pretty much the one melvyn hiscock describes in his book in the bass chapter, which is why i tried it in the first place on my very first project and many, many more since

it works. Linseed will work too but i keep recommending this one because i have so much more experience with it than i do with linseed... I have done a couple of zebrano necks with it and can say with some certainty you will like the feel of it

[RestorationAD]

the method i have suggested is pretty much the one melvyn hiscock describes in his book in the bass chapter, which is why i tried it in the first place on my very first project and many, many more since

it works. Linseed will work too but i keep recommending this one because i have so much more experience with it than i do with linseed... I have done a couple of zebrano necks with it and can say with some certainty you will like the feel of it

I asked Jaden about what he is using now... I need a solid repeatable oil finish that doesn't take 3 months to finish...a la Tung Oil. Linseed takes 18 -24 hours to dry... Danish says 8 - 10... I have had Tung Oil take 30 days to finally cure on some woods.

I like the danish oil briwax idea as it should be done by Friday. If I have more time I will do the Linseed method.

[supplebanana]

i used Tung Oil & Bri wax on my build.... no probs. Open pored mahogany too. I put a heavy coat on, left it an hour or two & wiped the excess off then left it overnight. then I just wet & dry'd it with the Tung Oil up to 2000 grit leaving an hour or two in between. I then left it ~48 hrs & then Bri waxed it. Buffed it up by hand & got a lovely satin sheen.

[avengers63]

the method i have suggested is pretty much the one melvyn hiscock describes in his book in the bass chapter, which is why i tried it in the first place on my very first project and many, many more since

it works. Linseed will work too but i keep recommending this one because i have so much more experience with it than i do with linseed... I have done a couple of zebrano necks with it and can say with some certainty you will like the feel of it

I'm not knocking Danish oil and I believe your testimony. According to Flexner, Danish oil usually falls into the wiping varnish" category, so I don't use it anymore. Nothing wrong with it, but I'd rather use a curing oil for an oil finish than a wiping varnish.

[RestorationAD]

the method i have suggested is pretty much the one melvyn hiscock describes in his book in the bass chapter, which is why i tried it in the first place on my very first project and many, many more since

it works. Linseed will work too but i keep recommending this one because i have so much more experience with it than i do with linseed... I have done a couple of zebrano necks with it and can say with some certainty you will like the feel of it

I'm not knocking Danish oil and I believe your testimony. According to Flexner, Danish oil usually falls into the wiping varnish" category, so I don't use it anymore. Nothing wrong with it, but I'd rather use a curing oil for an oil finish than a wiping varnish.

Yeah it is like a tru-oil light. And I might move into linseed + bri. in the future.

[Drak]

I have had Tung Oil take 30 days to finally cure on some woods.

Catalyzing finishes dry evenly throughout due to their interlocking nature, Film finishes dry from the top down, and oil finishes dry from the bottom up, so if you're using any type of oil finish over any kind of oily wood...Coco-Bolo, Paduak, Rosewood...you get the idea...it takes an oil finish FOREVER to dry under those conditions.

So oil finishes are fine as long as you're using a very non-oily wood that can allow an oil finish to harden properly from the bottom up.

Something tells me you may have issues with Zircote...hope not.

[RestorationAD]

I have had Tung Oil take 30 days to finally cure on some woods.

Catalyzing finishes dry evenly throughout due to their interlocking nature, Film finishes dry from the top down, and oil finishes dry from the bottom up, so if you're using any type of oil finish over any kind of oily wood...Coco-Bolo, Paduak, Rosewood...you get the idea...it takes an oil finish FOREVER to dry under those conditions.

So oil finishes are fine as long as you're using a very non-oily wood that can allow an oil finish to harden properly from the bottom up.

Something tells me you may have issues with Zircote...hope not.

Luckily I learned my Tung-Oil lessons on a Pau Ferro stool I built. Took a month to cure. So on the SG I didn't even try it.

I should be fine since the Zebra/Wenge/Sapele are very dry porous woods.

[WezV]

I'm not knocking Danish oil and I believe your testimony. According to Flexner, Danish oil usually falls into the wiping varnish" category, so I don't use it anymore. Nothing wrong with it, but I'd rather use a curing oil for an oil finish than a wiping varnish.

i knew you were going to start quoting flexner at some point

tbh the semantics of the issue are less important to me than the results.

I also honestly dont think a 'proper' oil finish is always the best thing for musical instruments....

1) when people ask for oil finishes its usually because they have played something from a factory with one of those various 'wiping varnish' finishes. Thats what people expect from an 'oil' finish, whether the term is correct or not. (you say tremolo, i say vibrato, lets call the whole thing off kinda thing)

2) you rarely see pre-lacquer string instruments with simple oil finishes, even though these would have been easier to achieve at the time. French polish seemed to become standard for guitars before lacquer but other instruments tend to have special secret varnish blends, often linseed and various other oils mixed with other things or a shellac base - it varies a lot

3) i once did a 'proper' oil finish on an acoustic soundboard... it was tonally dead for 6 months. i believe thats how long it must have taken for the oil to fully cure within the wood. I know it was the finish and not normal wearing in of an acoustic because i had it strung up before finishing and it sounded bloody awesome... i thought i had killed it!!

having said all that, i have recommended danish oil and tru-oil to friends in the past only to see their results and be thoroughly horrified by what they had managed to achieve.

[sam_c]

not that I have anywhere near the experience you guys have, but I recently finished a neck using a mix of lemon oil and pure beeswax. The oil and wax are heated until the wax melts and then left to cool until it forms a slurry/paste. This went on really well and it also buffed up to a very smooth feel. I think i put around 5-6 good coats of it on. It's showing no signs of wear after alot of playing and the guy says it still feels great to play.

I was told that this was how Washburn/USMC finish their necks and fretboards, do you think It's a suitable finish or would I need to be looking into some of the options youve mentioned above?

Sorry to Hijack, loving the build btw, but I though it might be sort of relevant if it turns out it's a suitable option for an oil finish.

Edited July 5, 2010 by sam_c

[Drak]

2) you rarely see pre-lacquer string instruments with simple oil finishes, even though these would have been easier to achieve at the time. French polish seemed to become standard for guitars before lacquer but other instruments tend to have special secret varnish blends, often linseed and various other oils mixed with other things or a shellac base - it varies a lot

3) i once did a 'proper' oil finish on an acoustic soundboard... it was tonally dead for 6 months. i believe thats how long it must have taken for the oil to fully cure within the wood. I know it was the finish and not normal wearing in of an acoustic because i had it strung up before finishing and it sounded bloody awesome... i thought i had killed it!!

having said all that, i have recommended danish oil and tru-oil to friends in the past only to see their results and be thoroughly horrified by what they had managed to achieve.

A very insightful perspective.

I think you are dead-on correct, that back 'in-the-day', builders were all building acoustics, to be played acoustically, so if you applied a finish that deadened your instrument in any sonic way, it would be tossed aside. No one would want a tonally dead acoustic after all, and no builder who spent the time carving, tapping, and infinitesimally adjusting their tops all day would want to murder their own hard work with a tone-deadening product, it would have been a Big Deal back then...still is to acoustic builders.

And I agree with you, oil seeps far more into the wood than most other finishes, and I believe deadens it acoustically.

One thing I try and do when using Oil (which is rare but I use it for some stuff), is to apply the first coat -sparingly- and stop.

Let it permeate the top pores and that's it, let it dry, stop up the pores, and you can go from there, that's all it needs to do.

Because of the nature of oil and woods' capillary action to allow it to continually keep sinking further and further into the pores, you -could- just keep going, and going, and going, and the wood will just keep sucking it up, and I do believe it can completely deaden the acoustic properties of an instrument.

Right On Wez.

[RestorationAD]

Good stuff Wez and Drak. Please do not think I did not consider these things in my finishing choice. I feel the thinner and harder the finish the better off I am.

Back in the day I used to do a rubbed lacquer finish that worked like a charm. I used 50/50 thinned lacquer and put a coat on wet. It soaked in an hardened. Then I would do maybe 2 more coats of 50/50 lacquer hand rubbed and call it a day. Those instruments eventually wore through (10 - 20 yrs later) in spots but sounded amazing. My Zebra San Dimas still looks amazing and it got refinished with a wiped on lacquer in 92 after it was retired from the road.

Today I am trying to be a bit more traditional but looking back I think I was dead on. A hard thin finish that did not effect the sound of the wood. I am looking to replicate that without the lacquer (with all the bad stuff) that is hard to get these days.

The problem is the new waterborn stuff doesn't seem to look like the old lacquer I used back in the day. I think that the EPA has killed my chances of getting the good stuff. While target coating look like glass when done right it is thick and never yellows. Never. It really has a blueish look to it. Even if you rub it in it doesn't accent the wood correctly. A proper choice might be Behlens instrument lacquer. This might be the next step is to get a good Nitro and rub it in by hand.

For this project an experiment with danish oil made sense since it hardens and still looks nice. Even though I still need to wax it this is a prototype. I might be wrong but Danish Oil is for furniture.

I didn't like the tru-oil because it felt like a varnish and took too many coats to look shiny. The tru-oil guitars still sound fine ... kinda like a heavy lacquer guitar. Yes I know I could go thinner on the tru-oil. Tru-Oil is for guns.

The tung-oil V I did 3 years ago still looks good but needs more wax to shine. Tonally I think the tung-oil did not effect the tone as it sounds fine but I never fell in love with that guitar. Visually it looks very dull. I think Tung-Oil is for boats.

Come to think of it I think the thin rubbed lacquer is my favorite finish ever.

[RestorationAD]

not that I have anywhere near the experience you guys have, but I recently finished a neck using a mix of lemon oil and pure beeswax. The oil and wax are heated until the wax melts and then left to cool until it forms a slurry/paste. This went on really well and it also buffed up to a very smooth feel. I think i put around 5-6 good coats of it on. It's showing no signs of wear after alot of playing and the guy says it still feels great to play.

I was told that this was how Washburn/USMC finish their necks and fretboards, do you think It's a suitable finish or would I need to be looking into some of the options youve mentioned above?

Sorry to Hijack, loving the build btw, but I though it might be sort of relevant if it turns out it's a suitable option for an oil finish.

Thinking about it I would say that the Lemon Oil acted as a thinner for your wax. As I understand it Lemon Oil is less oil and more petroleum distillates like mineral oil that evaporate so basically you have a wax finish sans oil. The lemon oil really serves as a cleaner and to make the whole mixture smell better. However beeswax is great as protection against moisture.

What we are trying to find is a solution that hardens, doesn't dampen acoustical properties, but still looks wet. Might be easier to find a unicorn or a chupacabra.

Thanks for the props on the build! \m/

[WezV]

not that I have anywhere near the experience you guys have, but I recently finished a neck using a mix of lemon oil and pure beeswax. The oil and wax are heated until the wax melts and then left to cool until it forms a slurry/paste. This went on really well and it also buffed up to a very smooth feel. I think i put around 5-6 good coats of it on. It's showing no signs of wear after alot of playing and the guy says it still feels great to play.

Thinking about it I would say that the Lemon Oil acted as a thinner for your wax. As I understand it Lemon Oil is less oil and more petroleum distillates like mineral oil that evaporate so basically you have a wax finish sans oil. The lemon oil really serves as a cleaner and to make the whole mixture smell better. However beeswax is great as protection against moisture.

i agree, i think you have made yourself a prepared beeswax recipe, not unlike bri-wax. If you oiled first you would find the oil aded a little something extra to the look, especially if there is any figure on the wood

Tbh i dont think the choice of finishing material is as important as the effort that goes into it. the 'bad' oil finishes i have seen are the ones where the person did little more tha wipe on a few coats. The good ones take a hell of a lot more effort to get right

[RestorationAD]

I am going to have to experiment on the next few guitars until I find a recipe that works.

[RestorationAD]

A little color top make the top more interesting. Started with lemon yellow in the middle and moved to orange on the edges. Normally I wouldn't put any color at all on zebra but this top was weak in the figure department. I really don't think you can use any colors other than yellow and orange on zebra. If I was going to seriously try another color I would do it in a clear coat.

[RestorationAD]

Soaked in Danish oil.