Finish Is Bleeding Off The Dye

[avengers63]

So I'm in the heat of testing the various finishes over the dyed cutoff for the Superthin and I'm running into a snag. The limba takes the turquoise dye well, and the color shows up wonderfully. The issues are with the finish.

Note: the dye is water-based. I'm leaving the dyed wood alone for +/- 24 hours to dry before applying any finish.

1) Oil based finishes )shellac, lacquer, and poly) look like crap. Their warm, yellow-ish undertones give the turquoise a brownish tinge that changes the color completely. Only water-based poly looks good and keeps the color intact.

2) Water-based poly actually pulls some of the dye from the wood and into the finish itself. This "smears" the color and leaves it all uneven. This happens regardless of if it's brushed on or sprayed on.

The only solution I know to combat this would be to tint the finish. The only concern is that the initial leeching of the dye might still leave some uneven coloration underneath it all. If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

[ScottR]

My admittedly limited experience with laquers is that they have been water clear. Sprayed, brushed and rattle can have all been clear. Why would that not work?

SR

[ihocky2]

The yellowish hue of the lacquer sounds about right, especially for nitro lacquer. There are a few that are water white, but I have never been happy with them.

How heavy are you spraying your first coat? Brushing I am sure they are very heavy and will drag the dye with it. It sounds like you are spraying wet enough to put the dye back into solution. Typically when I use a dye my first coat is a light mist coat, just enough to lightly seal off the wood and lock the dye into the wood. My second coat may go slightly heavier, it depends on the finish I am using. Lacquer will melt the previous coat, so a heavier coat will only incur the same problem you are having, so I'll usually give it about 3 light mist coats total with lacquer. If the finish is too rough for my liking I'll give it a quick kiss with a scotch brite pad just to knock down the wood fuzzies, but nothing more than one light swipe. Then I'll move to medium wet coats and my last few coats before setting it aside will be full wet coats.

[avengers63]

The yellowish hue of the lacquer sounds about right, especially for nitro lacquer. There are a few that are water white, but I have never been happy with them.

How heavy are you spraying your first coat? Brushing I am sure they are very heavy and will drag the dye with it. It sounds like you are spraying wet enough to put the dye back into solution. Typically when I use a dye my first coat is a light mist coat, just enough to lightly seal off the wood and lock the dye into the wood. My second coat may go slightly heavier, it depends on the finish I am using. Lacquer will melt the previous coat, so a heavier coat will only incur the same problem you are having, so I'll usually give it about 3 light mist coats total with lacquer. If the finish is too rough for my liking I'll give it a quick kiss with a scotch brite pad just to knock down the wood fuzzies, but nothing more than one light swipe. Then I'll move to medium wet coats and my last few coats before setting it aside will be full wet coats.

Misting the dyed pieces is having only limited success. While it's drawing the dye less, it's still creating an uneven coloration.

I've been trying tinted w/b poly. That is working better, especially if it's misted on. But only up to the point that there's a good layer of finish on to seal the wood and the poly can start to build up some thickness. At that point, the finish is pooling up on it's own. The concentrated color in those places is really dark, thus dorking up THAT part of the operation.

Seriously - if ANYONE has any ideas here' I'm all ears. All I want to do at this point is seal the water-based dye into the wood without bleeding it back out so that I can put a clear coat over it.

[ScottR]

I assume mixing the dye with alchohol would leave the same problem. I still think you should run to the auto parts store and get a spray can of clear lacquer and run a test with that. It didn't cause my w/b dye to go into solution or color it. At least I don't think it did....the dye was brown, so I may not have noticed.

SR

[avengers63]

I assume mixing the dye with alchohol would leave the same problem.

Considering that it's w/b dye, I'd think so too.

I still think you should run to the auto parts store and get a spray can of clear lacquer and run a test with that.

The brush-on lacquer I've tested it with didn't bleed off the finish. NONE of the oil-based products do. It's that they turn the color from a nice turquoise to a greenish tint that just looks like crap. The w/b is the only thing I have that will leave the actual color in tact, but it wants to draw out the dye, presumably because the dye is w/b as well.

[Ripthorn]

What if you used alcohol or oil based dyes and a waterbase clearcoat? Then they shouldn't mess with each other, I would hope (no basis for that opinion in fact, though)

[avengers63]

What if you used alcohol or oil based dyes and a waterbase clearcoat? Then they shouldn't mess with each other, I would hope (no basis for that opinion in fact, though)

I thought about that and I was looking into alcohol-based dyes this morning. I'm not opposed to it in any way whatsoever. That seems like the easiest possible solution from where I'm at right now. I'd like to exhaust the possibilities of what I have on hand before I spend another +/- $15 (with shipping) for a different version of a product I just paid +/- $15 for. Make sense?

Unless someone wants to mail me a tablespoon of some alcohol-based turquoise dye powder.

[RestorationAD]

What if you used alcohol or oil based dyes and a waterbase clearcoat? Then they shouldn't mess with each other, I would hope (no basis for that opinion in fact, though)

I thought about that and I was looking into alcohol-based dyes this morning. I'm not opposed to it in any way whatsoever. That seems like the easiest possible solution from where I'm at right now. I'd like to exhaust the possibilities of what I have on hand before I spend another +/- $15 (with shipping) for a different version of a product I just paid +/- $15 for. Make sense?

Unless someone wants to mail me a tablespoon of some alcohol-based turquoise dye powder.

So with the Water Based Lacquers from Target Coatings I use 2 coats of the universal sanding sealer over dye before starting on the lacquer topcoat.

With nitro I use a vinyl sealer coat before the final lacquer.

I have had some issues with fade and dilution of water based dyes when I don't do that.

One last point. The 7_B 7 string I finished in august has lost some of its color already... and that was a Danish oil over transtint/water based dye.

[ScottR]

What brand of dye are ou using? The ones I have been using (I forget the name but they are the ones from Woodcraft) are able to be mixed with either water or alchohol. Which leads me to believe that once they are soaked into the wood and which-ever carrier has evaporated off the pigments that remain will still be soluable in water.

Have you seen if you can thin your lacquer enough with solvent to make a wash coat transparent enough that it no longer tints your turquoise? I imagine you have....throwing darts here.

SR

[DC Ross]

I know you mentioned that you didn't want to use shellac because it warmed up the blue too much, but this is exactly what Jeff Jewitt recommends when using water/alcohol based dyes with waterbased topcoats because of this "lifting" issue.

You didn't mention what type of shellac you were using, but try blonde for a near-clear barrier coat.

[avengers63]

What brand of dye are ou using? The ones I have been using (I forget the name but they are the ones from Woodcraft) are able to be mixed with either water or alchohol. Which leads me to believe that once they are soaked into the wood and which-ever carrier has evaporated off the pigments that remain will still be soluable in water.

Have you seen if you can thin your lacquer enough with solvent to make a wash coat transparent enough that it no longer tints your turquoise? I imagine you have....throwing darts here.

All of my dyes are TransFast. Yes, they're sold at Woodcraft & Rockler. And I have NO IDEA why I haven't called them yet. (facepalm)

I haven't tried thinning the oil-based stuff down yet. It's worth a shot. The closest I've come to that is PADDING, not pouring on, the linseed oil. There was just barely enough put on to moisten the surface of the wood, but it still discolored the dye.

I know you mentioned that you didn't want to use shellac because it warmed up the blue too much, but this is exactly what Jeff Jewitt recommends when using water/alcohol based dyes with waterbased topcoats because of this "lifting" issue.

You didn't mention what type of shellac you were using, but try blonde for a near-clear barrier coat.

I use Zinsser/bullseye clear, and yes it's a fairly fresh can.

This afternoon I picked up a can of acrylic lacquer from Auto Zone. Acrylic paints water-soluable, so we'll see what that brings us.

[avengers63]

I just got off the phone with Woodcraft. They suggested the same thing ScottR did: a shellac seal-coat. So...... I'll be sanding off and re-dying tonight, then sealing it up tomorrow morning. Hopefully it'll be thin enough to not alter the color too much. Saturday morning I can try a coat of w/b poly over it and see what happens.