theodoropoulos Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 (edited) I am very sad today cause i had many accidents with my router...First I cut the wood with a bandsaw right off the pencil line,and routed using a template copying the matrix..But the elm i used was very very strong and had 2-3 tear off ...i am deeply dissapoined and dont know where i went wrong....The only which i can think is that in some point the router had to cut 3-4 mm distance to meet the template of a wood which was 4 cm deep...was that tooo much????? Edited December 3, 2010 by theodoropoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 Some wood tears out very easily.And you also have to go in the correct direction...and you have to go extremely slow sometimes...and your bit must be very sharp...and even then it still might happen I never rout the body shape...I sand it to final dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 (edited) Some wood tears out very easily.And you also have to go in the correct direction...and you have to go extremely slow sometimes...and your bit must be very sharp...and even then it still might happen I never rout the body shape...I sand it to final dimensions. Sanding is not as accurate as routing..but 100% safe...I will think about it seriously...but please tell me about the correct direction.Is there any way to predict it before the accident??? besides in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB6l-bssWzc at the 5:51 when the routing beginns the woods is cut like butter...unlike mine...which resembled like stone.... Edited December 3, 2010 by theodoropoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessejames Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 Do you have a routing table? I had a problem until I bought a routing table and just used it to do my template routing on the body and it turned out to be much better for me. You gotta have high rpm and super sharp bits. And like already suggested the right direction and speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessejames Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 Also I just looked at the video of the guy routing. All I can suggest is that you don't use the same hand placement as him. He is just begging to have an accident or lose a fingertip if something goes wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 I am very sad today cause i had many accidents with my router...First I cut the wood with a bandsaw right off the pencil line,and routed using a template copying the matrix..But the elm i used was very very strong and had 2-3 tear off ...i am deeply dissapoined and dont know where i went wrong....The only which i can think is that in some point the router had to cut 3-4 mm distance to meet the template of a wood which was 4 cm deep...was that tooo much????? Don't fear the router, learn to love it. Yep 4 mm is too much that's why you got tear out. Follow these tips and you will be in router nirvana, Get rid of as much wood as you can with hand tools like a rasp, this reduces the strain on the router bit. Route down 1-2 mm at a time on hard woods, go slow. Practice on scrap first, if you get tear out on 2 mm go to 1 mm. Use a dust extractor, safety goggles and ear muffs. I have heard different theories on which direction is the safest to prevent tear out, I go anti clockwise around the outside, the bit is spinning clockwise as you look down on it so the bit is scooping out the cut and not able to jam down on the uncut edge. The exception is pointy bits, route towards the point from either side and move past it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buter Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 It can't be explained any better than this video. With this bit I will rout out a 40mm body in one pass, provided I haven't cut too far outside the final shape on the bandsaw. Anything much more than about 1.5mm and I will do that section in two passes. You stated that you were trying to route up to 4mm at 40mm depth, that's too much for my liking. Cheers B Hiya Muzz, you just posted as I was writing. Good, er, point about the pointy bits. After sending countless bodies flying across the shop, I stopped routing anything too pointy; I just get close and finish by hand. No two alike that way, totally custom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 @Buter well,in the video i did not understand how does he know the grain direction in arch so he routes half way clockwise and the rest anticlock wise...Or does he do it random?? Tha t makes no sense.why the grain change direction in the middle of the way,or is it just a method??? @MUzz In the photo the wood outside the matrix is more than 1.5 mm as i can see... i can not still understand how can prevent the tearout in a routertable..As far as a simple distance concerns..Not corners...I would appreciate if you explained in a few words(forgive me but i cannot "catch"some words in Engish..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buter Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 If you cannot tell which way the grain is running, I'm afraid it will be difficult to help you. I imagine it is a language thing, not an intelligence thing on your part. As soon as someone puts into a context that you can understand, you'll grasp it quite quickly. If you can imagine petting/stroking a dog. Don't stroke it the wrong way! Good luck. Buter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 here are two drawings from stew-mac showing routing direction - its for binding, but the same principle applies . the diagram does assme you have grain running the length of the guitar body - but that is usally the case unless its highly figured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 can anyone predict the grain direction only by sight???i dont think so...unless a small tearout happens i cannot understand the direction...i thank you for those infos i will try them right now...BUT i had an idea... instead of a router bit ,how would it be to use this???? http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Sanding_...obo-Sander.html which can copy a pattern.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 can anyone predict the grain direction only by sight??? Umm..yes...anyone can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 (edited) can anyone predict the grain direction only by sight??? Umm..yes...anyone can. ok ....you are correct .. in a river we know the direction but we dont know if the water runs upwards or downwards....that is what i mean.. in the wood we see the river but i dont see the flow...can you see it and help me???or that doesnt matter? btw this is my wood Edited December 4, 2010 by theodoropoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Well,the way the grain runs in that piece is pretty difficult to counter...the Ash body I just did is horrible for tearout.But in the case of wavy grained pieces of wood,you are back to my original suggestion...sand to final dimensions. Looking at that piece I would never rout the body shape on that...and on the cavities I would use a freshly sharpened high quality bit and go very slowly.And it STILL might happen. If you are looking for a magic wand,there is none.Start sanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam_c Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 If you imagine a book, opened out in the middle on a desk. The grain of the wood at the edge of your timber boards is like the pages of that book. If you run your finger down the stack of pages, they will not lift up. If you run your finger up the stack of pages, they will lift up. This is the same thing that is happening when you run the router across the grain at the edge of your timber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Well,the way the grain runs in that piece is pretty difficult to counter...the Ash body I just did is horrible for tearout.But in the case of wavy grained pieces of wood,you are back to my original suggestion...sand to final dimensions. Looking at that piece I would never rout the body shape on that...and on the cavities I would use a freshly sharpened high quality bit and go very slowly.And it STILL might happen. If you are looking for a magic wand,there is none.Start sanding. i think this is the most helpfull info..no magic wand...just like the condom....the safe way by sanding @sam c very interesting ,but besides the understanding of the tearout i cannot be safe before a tearout occurs...Just if it happens i will go the opposite direction.. problem is to have no tearouts at all.... no magic wand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Hey Dimitris, yep tear out occurs when the bulk of wood that the router blade is pushed into stops or slows the blade momentarily, the router gains torque and finds the next weakest point that will give way, the grain along the bit that tears out. On a plunge router there are two ways to avoid this. You can have a long router bit set deep and push it very gently along the cutting face of the wood, bring it close to the wood until you just hear the the tone of the router change and shave thin slices off the edge, or just set the depth of the plunge router 1 mm deeper each pass. Either technique will stop the friction on the router bit overpowering the motor on the router. Using both techniques together is very safe. Hi Buter, great router bits at that site, the video reminded me of the other golden rule, any time you want to have 5 fingers on each hand, pull the router plug out of the socket before you touch the bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 to be honest the experience of the router was a bit terrible!!..I was always thinking???what if something happens??? and HAPPEND...after a tearout the spinning router bit went off the router and hitted the wall....Fortunatelly i wasnt there.....That happened because i had not tightened it too much..... The bit was strong enough and wasnt kind with the wood..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Hey man...just today I had a Bosch Colt router get away from me and a router bit actually chipped a piece off and stuck into the bubinga of my guitar body. The truth is that routers are super dangerous...absolutely the most dangerous power tool in the guitar building arsenal...If I could figure out how to build a nice guitar with a hammer and chisel I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helldunkel Posted December 5, 2010 Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 I am very sad today cause i had many accidents with my router...First I cut the wood with a bandsaw right off the pencil line,and routed using a template copying the matrix..But the elm i used was very very strong and had 2-3 tear off ...i am deeply dissapoined and dont know where i went wrong....The only which i can think is that in some point the router had to cut 3-4 mm distance to meet the template of a wood which was 4 cm deep...was that tooo much????? If I can add my 2 cents.... I dont recommend that you route the body shape if using ELM, ELM is one of the toughest woods out there at least the european one, it also has a tendency to burn even if your tools are very sharp. Best way to do it is to carefully outline the shape from the template onto the body, bandsaw it out and then sand the sides flush. I dont know why you think that its less accurate, because you simply go up to the pencil line if you did a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 (edited) I am very sad today cause i had many accidents with my router...First I cut the wood with a bandsaw right off the pencil line,and routed using a template copying the matrix..But the elm i used was very very strong and had 2-3 tear off ...i am deeply dissapoined and dont know where i went wrong....The only which i can think is that in some point the router had to cut 3-4 mm distance to meet the template of a wood which was 4 cm deep...was that tooo much????? If I can add my 2 cents.... I dont recommend that you route the body shape if using ELM, ELM is one of the toughest woods out there at least the european one, it also has a tendency to burn even if your tools are very sharp. Best way to do it is to carefully outline the shape from the template onto the body, bandsaw it out and then sand the sides flush. I dont know why you think that its less accurate, because you simply go up to the pencil line if you did a good job. you are absolutely right...I am not just used to sand with this way...but i just did it today to fix the tearouts and did an icredible job..This will be my next friend.... btw i think i found why i did those terrible tearouts...I wanted to share it with you... 1)the router bit's razor had a length 30mm and diameter 19 mm.ALL the lenght cutted the strong ELM..i could not work gradually up to 30 mm.I had to do it once... 2)i did not follow the instruction #2 and generally this philosophy of this article http://www.ehow.com/how_2215700_control-di...king-power.html i was working AGAINST the grain(anti clockwise) BECAUSE I WAS FAMILIAR FROM HOLDING THE ROUTER INSTEAD OF HAVING IT IN ROUTER TABLE.This way router spins by opposite way .... Edited December 5, 2010 by theodoropoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helldunkel Posted December 5, 2010 Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 I am very sad today cause i had many accidents with my router...First I cut the wood with a bandsaw right off the pencil line,and routed using a template copying the matrix..But the elm i used was very very strong and had 2-3 tear off ...i am deeply dissapoined and dont know where i went wrong....The only which i can think is that in some point the router had to cut 3-4 mm distance to meet the template of a wood which was 4 cm deep...was that tooo much????? If I can add my 2 cents.... I dont recommend that you route the body shape if using ELM, ELM is one of the toughest woods out there at least the european one, it also has a tendency to burn even if your tools are very sharp. Best way to do it is to carefully outline the shape from the template onto the body, bandsaw it out and then sand the sides flush. I dont know why you think that its less accurate, because you simply go up to the pencil line if you did a good job. you are absolutely right...I am not just used to sand with this way...but i just did it today to fix the tearouts and did an icredible job..This will be my next friend.... btw i think i found why i did those terrible tearouts...I wanted to share it with you... 1)the router bit's razor had a length 30mm and diameter 19 mm.ALL the lenght cutted the strong ELM..i could not work gradually up to 30 mm.I had to do it once... 2)i did not follow the instruction #2 and generally this philosophy of this article http://www.ehow.com/how_2215700_control-di...king-power.html i was working AGAINST the grain(anti clockwise) BECAUSE I WAS FAMILIAR FROM HOLDING THE ROUTER INSTEAD OF HAVING IT IN ROUTER TABLE.This way router spins by opposite way .... A trick I learned to help preventing tear out when I was studying guitar building was to slightly dampen the wood in the area which you are going to route. Of course you must also follow the method when routing to prevent tear out but in some cases this simple trick can prevent a drama... Sometimes wood will just tear off even if your tools are very sharp and that you are using the correct methods, its just the nature of wood, but ELM is very tough and hard to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 you mean dampening by pussing with your hand against the wood just over the spinning router bit??? to be honest i am afraid...we just mentioned 2 accidents,with much luck..i won't risk it... do you have a protection for this dampening to propose?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helldunkel Posted December 5, 2010 Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 you mean dampening by pussing with your hand against the wood just over the spinning router bit??? to be honest i am afraid...we just mentioned 2 accidents,with much luck..i won't risk it... do you have a protection for this dampening to propose?? ? damp the wood....... ....... I dont really see how you can create an accident by putting some water on a cloth and damp areas of your guitar body before routing.... maybe I used the wrong word... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theodoropoulos Posted December 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 (edited) you mean dampening by pussing with your hand against the wood just over the spinning router bit??? to be honest i am afraid...we just mentioned 2 accidents,with much luck..i won't risk it... do you have a protection for this dampening to propose?? ? damp the wood....... ....... I dont really see how you can create an accident by putting some water on a cloth and damp areas of your guitar body before routing.... maybe I used the wrong word... ok,ok i got it...in other words you mean to wet the area which is supposed to be routed...interesting.... i bet it works.... Edited December 5, 2010 by theodoropoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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