Baritone version of Gibson Longhorn type guitar

[Aakoo]

Hello, 

I have been playing around with the idea of building Gibson Longhorn -type guitar for a while now for my self. I often play in low tuning, so I thought that it probably would be a nice to have a baritone scale guitar for such projects.

 

Now, looking at the photo above, I think that adding length to neck would make the guitar slightly neck heavy. I wonder if the best way to balance the guitar would be to try to keep the 12th fret somewhat in place and split the added length to both ends; move the bridge and tailpiece slightly back,at the same time as the nut and head stock goes slightly further away from the body? Would you think this would balance the guitar, or would it be in balance if keep the hardware as is, but replace the neck with a longer one?

How about the pickups, should I keep the position related to bridge, or should the neck pickup be placed just next to where the neck ends?

I would appreciate any suggestions to design, thanks!

[SwedishLuthier]

Unfortunately there is no 100% sure way to say how the guitar will balance, short from building it and testing. However I would indeed recommend that, if you extend the scale more than just an inch or so,  you move the bridge a bit back. I would keep the pickup positions at the same position in reference to the scale. What I mean is that if the pickup originally is place at, say, exactly the 9th order flageolet you should place the pickup at the same place after extending the scale. That is how I would approach this anyway.

[Aakoo]

Thanks for the reply, 

I really didn't get what you ment with the following sentence: " if the pickup originally is place at, say, exactly the 9th order flageolet you should place the pickup at the same place after extending the scale",Do You mean that I should calculate some relative measure where the pickups are positioned originally, and calculate the new position with this relative values, after changing the scale length?

[ScottR]

It's just another way of saying set the neck a little further into the body. For example join the neck to the body at the 17th fret instead of the 19th. the pickups would remain in the same positions relative to the neck and bridge wherever they are placed on the body. Where you place your strap buttons can go a long ways toward countering balance issues as well.

SR

[SwedishLuthier]

Thanks for the reply, 

I really didn't get what you ment with the following sentence: " if the pickup originally is place at, say, exactly the 9th order flageolet you should place the pickup at the same place after extending the scale",Do You mean that I should calculate some relative measure where the pickups are positioned originally, and calculate the new position with this relative values, after changing the scale length?

 

What I ment was that if the pickup is something like 9% of the distance from the bridge to the nut in the original layout, when you have the extended scale, place the pickup at 9% of the distance from the bridge to the nut. I have noticed that the placement of the bridge pickup is crucial of the sound. A tad to close to the bridge and the sound will be bright bordering to being ice-picking bright. Place it a bit too far away from the bridge and it will be dull and boring (all this IMHO). The neck pickup (when using two pickups that is...) is not as critical.

 

So in short, what you said...

Edited August 29, 2015 by SwedishLuthier

[Prostheta]

Hei Aakoo - I agree with Peter's recommendations. The way I would approach this is by drawing out the original guitar in CAD and working out how best to balance the amount of bridge offset vs. the position of the 22nd fret. That guarantees a reasonable neck joint and accessibility. Taking the 24-3/4" (~629mm) scale up to something like 27" (~686mm) adds 2-1/4" (57mm). That would push the bridge back a couple of cm. Scaling up the body size partially helps alleviate balance issues and visual aesthetics.

I'd place the neck pickup wherever the neck ends, yes. Practicality over splitting hairs I think. The bridge pickup can be spaced by distance rather than proportion.

This looks like a good project. Keep us informed how it's going.

Terve Porista!

[psikoT]

As far as I know, the neck pickup should be exactly under the (imaginary) 24th fret and the bridge pickup as closer as possible to the bridge, that gives you the wider range of frequencies... and, since the bridge location is determined by the scale length, the only question i can see here is the location of the scaling center, which is the 20th fret (where the body starts).

If you have access to a vector drawing program, like Illustrator or Autocad, you could roughly draw the guitar on its original size and then overlap the baritone fretboard as a guide, centering both drawings around the 20th fret. Then start scaling the original drawing, using the 20th fret as center, until the original fretboard is the same length as the baritone one. That will scale the body in a proportional way as well... but maybe you'll have to reduce a bit afterwards due to a more narrow fretboard.

Not sure if I've explained well, you can do it at eyeball too... 

[Prostheta]

"Should be" has never been part of any of the "formulas" manufacturers "came up with". I mean, you can argue about pickups placed at the 24th fret (third overtone) having some kind of special place. Any placement is a different tone, right? Those nodes are good pointers if your thing is playing open notes. All the time. I don't give much credence to "sweet spots" or anything that can be put within quotation marks.

Tradition is a nice thing to be aware of and have respect for, but not at the expense of developing new ideas and tone. Bang it up against the end of the fretboard and have done with ;-)

You have to ask....were the people that developed iconic instruments whose design we take for granted thinking about these nuances? Leo certainly wasn't. He would've used nails if wood screws weren't cheap enough. Gibson only took on the Les Paul out of pressure to produce a solidbody and did so with reluctance to let up on their established craft, heritage and nods to their origins in mandolins. Pickups were all over the place and generally out of influence from the physical design than for specific mojo tones. Rhythm/treble is as good as it got; not bark/squonk/flob/squee/raw dog.

I'm happy to receive flak from people when I say that "pickup placement should not be called science". You can put a bunch of work into exacting pickup placement and find that it just doesn't gel. Sometimes it does and you have no idea why. A few mm can be radically different or radically the-same.

I don't buy it man. So many things about placement don't make enough sense to make a strong argument.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Prostheta

[Aakoo]

Thanks for the replys!

I haven't done more than thinking of this project until this morning. I happened to bump into one of these Schecter Scropion baritones: http://stringsite.com/en/electric-15/schecter-scorpion-6-deluxe-baritone-black-p1574.I realized the body shape is pretty much similar to the longhorn, so I decided to compare using paint.net, a very very professional guitar designer tool  Here is what I found:
The guitars are very similar, The pickups are positioned the same, as is the bridge. Schecter has 26.5” scale and 24 frets, as Gibson has 24-3/4" scale and 21 frets. Neck joint on the Schecter is on 22nd fret as in Gibson it is on 19th (or even earlier, can't say so well from the photo I have). So my conclusion here is to do the body just as in from the Gibson, bridge and pickups positioned exactly as in the original, but just add scale length the same way is in Schecter. 

The schecter guitar is very nice, but the red-neck tribal fretboard and butt-ugly headstock, really screws it up

Terve vain Prostheta! I am located in Kokkola, some 300 kilometers north from Pori. I was kind of aware you living on that area, because I followed this board pretty intensive around the time when you were moving to Finland  Do I remember correctly, your origins are in GB? 

Edited October 1, 2015 by Aakoo

[Prostheta]

Yep, I'm English but my wife and our son are Finnish. It was a tough transition and still is. Finnish is a hellishly difficult language. We're working on setting up a permanent workshop here specifically to produce content for ProjectGuitar.com so perhaps you should drop by when this is all happening! 300km down the coast is a big old drive though, but we're aiming for an open door.

Good spot on the Schecter, and yes....that tribal inlay is just all kinds of teenage awful. Have you noticed that the end of the Schecter headstock is a mirror image of the Gibson one?

[Aakoo]

Yep, I'm English but my wife and our son are Finnish. It was a tough transition and still is. Finnish is a hellishly difficult language. We're working on setting up a permanent workshop here specifically to produce content for ProjectGuitar.com so perhaps you should drop by when this is all happening! 300km down the coast is a big old drive though, but we're aiming for an open door.

Yes, I've heard some rumors about the Finnish language being difficult.. But I've learned it, so can't be that difficult  

You mean a workshop event for producing material for the site, or are you referring the workshop as a place where to build guitars and document builds for pg.com? Either way, sounds interesting. I can't really promise anything, but I am definitely interested. Always nice to see how more experienced people work and get perhaps some ideas for own builds. 

This baritone build I am planning to get started when I get my acoustic guitar, which I am building on a community college course (for a 4th year now ), in a state that I know I can finish it on the on going. I just started putting lacquer on it, so I assume the time is due pretty soon. Here's a pic about the guitar before the course summer break..and yes, I know the inlay should have had the first leaves on the 12th fret
 

Good spot on the Schecter, and yes....that tribal inlay is just all kinds of teenage awful. Have you noticed that the end of the Schecter headstock is a mirror image of the Gibson one?

I didn't notice it, but now when you say, it is obvious. I don't like it anyhow, Gibson is far more classy.. I think I am one of those "guitarists", You know, only liking the traditional designs..

[ScottR]

Fine looking acoustic there.

SR

[Prostheta]

You mean a workshop event for producing material for the site, or are you referring the workshop as a place where to build guitars and document builds for pg.com? Either way, sounds interesting. I can't really promise anything, but I am definitely interested. Always nice to see how more experienced people work and get perhaps some ideas for own builds. 

That's it exactly on both counts. We want to keep an open door with coffee on all the time!

Your acoustic is stunning. Did you get the soundboard locally? I've been wanting to make a carved archtop bass for a long long time so getting materials locally would be damn useful.

[Aakoo]

 

That's it exactly on both counts. We want to keep an open door with coffee on all the time!

Your acoustic is stunning. Did you get the soundboard locally? I've been wanting to make a carved archtop bass for a long long time so getting materials locally would be damn useful.

Sounds good, I will definitely be interested to drop by and see the place. Specially if free coffee!

The acoustic woods I bought from the course teacher. I think he had pre-ordered the woods from Helsinki based luthier Juha Lottonen (http://lottonen.com/en/). The top is spruce, back and sides are Indian rosewood, neck is cedar. Fretboard wood I had from the past and it is grenadil. 

[Prostheta]

Pre-ordered sounds like a very familiar thing. We just don't have the market here to support large luthiery-specific wood stores.

Landola are just a little south of you in Pietersaari, and I think there's an acoustic manufacturer down in Vaasa. I'd be looking for something more along the lines of a block of flame Maple for a fully-carved archtop a la ES-175s than a flat steel's soundboard. For a one-off it would be no big deal to buy direct from central Europe or even from Canada/US. I can't see it happening soon though. I think my next financial priority is to invest in a DSLR than can shoot 1080p videos for tutorials.

We've plenty of tervaleppä (black Alder) kicking around which is more or less comparable to red Alder and Birch coming out of our ears. Personal projects for the immediate future will be based around those purely for economy instead of going for "stunt woods".

My wife and I always laugh at the Finnish habit of driving huge distances for a free cup of coffee and a doughnut. Because they're free.

[Aakoo]

I think Landola went out of business a couple of years ago? Are they back?

We have a pretty well known gypsy guitar builder in my town called AJL guitars (http://www.ajl-guitars.com/), but I think he is more known abroad than in Finland. I hadn't heard of him before my colleague mentioned him, when she heard I was building this acoustic guitar. Turned out she had dated him back in the old days when the TV was black and white 

Yes, I know Finns are eager to run after cheap coffee.. Specially the elderly people. That's why markets often have coffee for sale

[Prostheta]

No idea. Their site is still online though. Not my area of expertise. I use acoustics when I don't have electricity or simply want some "free loud". I know AJL! Nice stuff and it's great that he has worldwide recognition. He'd be just another bald guy with fashionable glasses in Prisma here ;-)

Coffee and pulla always bring in the voyeurs to new businesses....

[Aakoo]

I got some wood!

Ebony fretboard, flame maple top, roasted birch neck. This is where it starts and it turns out, this will not be a baritone, as the fret board I got is too short, but I am planning to have 25", instead of the 24-3/4. I think I will leave the fret board black, no fret markers, add ebony+maple veneer stripes on the sides of the fret board. So that the fret cuts are cut through the board+maple, and later on the ebony veneer is applied to cover the fret slots ends, somewhat the same way as Gibson does their binding, but I doubt I will be adding the ebony on the fret it self, only the fret slots.

I've been working on this while waiting the lacquer to dry on my acoustic. I have glued the body and neck planks together, as you see I have 2 2-piece neck planks in the picture, one will be the neck, and the second one I will cut the heel of (if I just don't get cheap, and use some other wood for the heel, and use the second neck plank for later projects). I consulted a senior builder on the building course, and he suggested we work on the neck first, as following: 

• Split the neck plank and glue together so that the grains go against each other, make the neck more stable. 
• Saw the head stock and glue it,
• glue a heel for the neck to make the neck tenon slightly longer.
• Split the neck from the middle (along the same line, we already glued in the 1st step).
• Add a one piece maple veneer, and glue the neck back together

This way the neck will be stronger, and also, the veneer will absolutely go straight. Although there are a few extra steps along the way

I asked a friend of mine to help out with the body outline drawing for the project. Until I get the drawing in somewhat 1:1 size on paper, I will just focus on the neck. 

Seems like this is turning to be a build diary. Should the topic be moved from design bar to in progress and finished work -area? If I knew how to do that, I'd do, but maybe a moderator can help me out with it?

[Prostheta]

Excellent! Looking forward to seeing this one develop. I'll do the moving for you now.

[Prostheta]

Done. I'm curious as to where you're sourcing the torrefied (thermo-treated, roasted, caramelised, etc.) Maple; was it domestically or from elsewhere in the EU?

[Aakoo]

I'm curious as to where you're sourcing the torrefied (thermo-treated, roasted, caramelised, etc.) Maple; was it domestically or from elsewhere in the EU?

The neck is birch, not maple. I suppose it is Finnish, I guess it was bought from Puukeskus here in Kokkola, Finland. I got this one from the guy who suggested the neck build method. He had a raw roasted birch plank, from where he cut the neck wood for me and his forthcoming acoustic project. The maple top I bought some 5 years ago from Korpi instruments, I don't know where he had sourced it, but it has pretty nice flame figure, which is not seen in the photo so well.. Also the mahogany body is old plank I bought from puukeskus some 10 years ago, while I was visiting Seinäjoki as my dogs knee got operated... The ebony for fretboard and headstock veneer I got from the course leader...

So, sorry, I can't really help you here.. This is kind of scratched together from old / spare parts and wood I have lying around, or get access to..   

[Mr_Riddler]

Done. I'm curious as to where you're sourcing the torrefied (thermo-treated, roasted, caramelised, etc.) Maple; was it domestically or from elsewhere in the EU?

 

You can get thermo-treated wood from espen.de 

[Prostheta]

Thanks, some reasonable prices on there too. I might look at sourcing wood from them as the basis for future tutorial publishing. Shame they didn't have any Ash for a Frankenstrat...*cough*

[Aakoo]

Continued my work yesterday, as I run out of lacquer so could not work with the acoustic guitar. I've had tons of problems when finishing the acoustic, so I have had to throw away quite amount of lacquer, and few coats I've sanded off.. I've always disliked that part on guitar build; I just can't work with lacquer...

So, Yesterday I sawed and glued the headstock, to around 17 degrees angle, glued in the heel, split the neck and glued the splits back together with the veneer in between. Also made the fretboard to 6mm thickness, so it is ready to be shaped, and slotted. 

The neck - body joint will be set slightly back, I was planning to have it around 19th fret, but because I rushed gluing the heel piece, I glued it so that the heel part starts in between 18th and 19th fret. I have to consider if I just leave the heel piece from the neck, or if I start the body slightly more back, or if I could somehow build a nice looking neck heel of a excess of wood...

Here's a few pics:
 

[Prostheta]

Yeah, you and me both! That's an area that I have a lot of improvements to make in....even with the availability of spray booths my lacquering leaves a lot to be desired....

The heel; I'm guessing that there isn't enough excess wood to re-cut the heel piece off and reglue it? Compromising your original specifications is always a disappointment. If the heel block is too shallow, perhaps adding a heel cap on top of that will bring it back up. Then again, heels do not need to be flush with the back of the body and can act as a way of tying various cosmetic ideas together.