Prostheta Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Well that's just people for you. I mean, you can take information at face value for quick easy results however you can't always do the same to accept it as rule. I don't see a mad rush to go making Ash necks simply because nobody else is, though. As a laminate, I'd be more concerned about cleavage along the grain over short distances. That's just my gut speaking about Ash. In my mind I treat it as coarse. It might be fine, who knows? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 I think ash would probably make a good neck wood. It is a common wood used for baseball bats, so strength and stiffness would not be a problem and it is prized for body woods, so I doubt it has any resonance issues. I wonder why it has an anti-neck rep. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 Well, when you look at its properties on paper it stacks up. Those are always the first port of call when assessing a wood for suitability. The next ones are practicality; is it a pain to finish, too heavy, unstable in use, etc? Like I said, a lot of online guitar-building lore has been predicated off faulty assumptions. "If it's not a commonly-used tonewood then it's obviously not a tonewood". Whatever a tonewood is anyway. I spent a long time observing how people make decisions and how they acquire/interpret information in order to develop my own feel for things. Back when the PG was relatively-young, people would re-quote Warmoth's information on woods and their uses as basic lore. That Warmoth chose not to make necks from Ash does not necessarily equate to Ash not making a good neck. It may well be that they chose not to make necks from it for a practical manufacturing reason as opposed to not. I'm writing an article on "choosing wood for your next project" which is meant to address the thought process, and at least raise consciousness a little on thinking practically on such things. Some people are quite pro-traditional and some completely anti. I don't think that makes much sense either, since traditional is often a symptom of old pressures and choices (usually geographic) which are not the same any more. Being totally anti-tradition is just as short-sighted since you can learn a lot of good objective information from what established those traditions rather than discarding it purely as conservative and old hat. Ash is a very common wood. I suspect that there may be a real reason as to why it might not be a preferable wood for necks, rather than an outright bad one. The large differentiation between early and late wood softness is my bet. It works well in baseball bats since the latewood is strong and hard whilst the earlywood is soft and absorbs shock. They neither explode nor kill your nerves. In terms of a neck, this may translate through as inconsistent stiffness/bending along the length under string tension, or worse yet, failure by fracturing through the seams created by softer growth rings. It's a good subject to continue debate on I think. Perhaps not here since I've already totally derailed @2.5itim's thread off a nugget of information he edited out anyway! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 I can't argue with any of that. My favorite necks that I've made, for feel and liveliness and stiffness have been one pieced jatoba. Not a common choice either, but those are the ones I get the most favorable comments on. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Haha your ok pros I don't mind at all about talking about it in my posts. I like to here people's opinions! I could see where ash as a full neck would be a pain to finish, with the differences in the growth rings and also how it could tend to warp due to the soft and hard growth rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I got a little work done today, got the neck laminates planed to the width I needed and all glued up. I am going to plane the neck down tomorrow to .750" and get the scarf joint cut and glued up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 My dyes should be here within the week and I am going to start practicing for the finish I want to achieve. What do y'all think is the best way to get this finish? Media blast, dye black, push colored grain filler into the softer growth rings, finish sand to get the grain filler off the spots that I want black and then laquer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ive done it before, but i did it the opposite. I got the main color i wnated, then rubbed red paint into the grain after, so it woudnt stick to the dyed color. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Main colour first (black), seal and then grain fill. I came across this video which I think will be useful to you: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Pros that video was perfect thank you! The last piece that he did there was pretty much what I am going for. Just a couple questions, so do I not have to worry about my sealer clogging the pores? From just my thinking is that the pores would also get sealed just like the tight grain would. 2nd when tinting my grain filler can I just use my alcohol analine dyes to tint it the white color I would be wanting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 So @killemall8 you didn't use a sealer? You just simply painted the parts you wanted red? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I would use shellac as a sealer. Something like a very thin cut. A 1lb to maybe 1-1/2lb cut. That's enough to cover surfaces, and unless you pool it, it shouldn't clog pores. If you wipe on shellac similar to how you French polish, it's unbelievably thin. Brushed is the best way to deal with heavy textures though. I'm just a shellac kinda guy though. What Luis suggests is valid if you have the patience to do it. There's nothing stopping you applying the fill directly rather than blanketing it. In many ways it is an easier cleanup. Do remember that with shellac, alcohol-based fillers will burn through it very quickly. It might work, however I would consider a different sealant that can't (or easily) be reflowed with solvents or a different fill. Even simple water-based acrylics or pigmenting "proper" grain filler can be made to work. At this point my experience starts to fail me. I can only talk about the theoretical side of how this works. The best bet in any instance is to experiment on scrap, keep a good accurate log of how each schedule you devise was done and take notes. If you understand the basic idea of how this is done, the rest is all your ingenuity and inventiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Oh yeah, I have a whole lot of scraps to mess with so I will take notes of each so I can go back to it. "If you understand the basic idea of how this is done" this is precisely my problem! I have never even seen shellac nor have I ever tinted grain filler so I really have no idea on how all of this works. Lol, I will have a whole bunch of trial and error in this I'm sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Point well made and taken onboard! Shellac is a natural resin used for French polishing, dissolved in alcohol and rubbed on very very carefully over many layers. Virtually everything sticks to shellac, so it makes a great intercoat or a basic sealer. I use it underneath my paint on Alder for example. It's possible to buy shellac pre-mixed in tins, however they're not as good as making it up from the flake with alcohol. It has a shelf life of months rather than years, so if a stockist has theirs sat for ages it tends to be prone to curing gummy or not at all. It's also best to buy it as blonde as you can; darker shellacs are waxier, which can undermine the properties of it being a great intercoat product. Timbermate is one of the most popular grain fillers that many luthiers use. It comes in white and various natural browns, so you need to pigment it if you want something crazy. To be fair, if you're not bothered about it shrinking back (which most people are with grain fillers when wanting a flat surface) there are any number of alternatives you can use. Even spackle or drywall jointing paste can be made to work. You just thin it until its about the consistency of thick cream and work it into the pores, squeegeeing it back off the surface once it starts to dry. Again, it's open season when it comes to trying out ideas with this kind of thing. You can get away with a lot once the basic idea is figured out, and you'd be surprised what "non-luthier specific" products you can use to achieve your ends. Like I say, kids acrylics can even be made to work to highlight the grain if you work out the best way to use them in timing, etc. This is where the intercoat properties of shellac shine; if you are using two products which might react with each other, but not to shellac, you can add a sealer of shellac. It's a great thing to have experience with, and I recommend genning up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 That was great info, thank you! I will go pick up some shellac and timbermateandsee what I can come up with. I will go ahead and order some water based analine dyes just in case the alcohol based won't work with the shellac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 The last 2 days have been pretty successful! I didn't know if I was going to like the walnut headstock so I decided to make 2 necks exactly the same except the other one will have a padouk headstock. I got the scarf joints cut, glued up and then made my decision on the walnut headstock, I will use the other one on a later build so no worries there. I also got the scarf joint area under the fretboard leveled with a sled on the table router and truss rod slot cut. This is my first time doing a headstock adjust truss rod, should I fill the area above the adjuster with a little piece of walnut or will it be fine the way it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 I also picked up a piece of rosewood for the fretboard, I'll go to my buddies and plane it down to .25 tomorrow and slot it, then I can get it glued up and start getting the headstock cut and back of the neck shaped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightroExpress Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Those turned out nicely! You can add a little filler or not, it doesn't really matter. Adding the filler makes the access area look a bit more finished in my opinion (even though I don't do it haha) and gives you a spot to screw in a cover if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Thanks man, the walnut headstock is throwing me off a little bit but I think I'll like it a lot more once I get the neck shaped and it's not all squared off. I may not do the fillet walnut since it isn't necessary, once the fretboard and nut is glued on I don't think it will be noticeable. And I will just make my cover wide enough to where I can just screw it onto the headstock. Thanks dude!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I've been practicing this finish and there has been lots of failed attempts so far! I did a couple where I stained it black, sanded back and then did a lighter color (purple) over the top which was really simple and turned out pretty cool. But I'm really trying to get black as the main color and white as the accent in the deep pores, I've done a few different methods and only one of them has worked so far #1 was dye black, shellac over the top, grey gel stain over the shellac and wipe off. The gel stain dryed way to fast (almost as soon as I applied it and ended up just a grey piece. I tried sanding the grey down but by the time the grey was gone so was the black. #2 was the same but a white wood filler in the open grain, this worked somewhat but I wasn't able to get it packed in enough to stand out. Finally #3 which has been the best so far. Everything was the same except I used a white milk paint, as soon as I applied it I pushed it into the open pores and rubbed it off immediately and this turned out pretty much exactly how I wanted and then I just sanded with 800 grit to bring the black back a bit more. Heres a pic of the purple piece and #3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 What is the solvent in the gel? We don't really get the same products over here so it's difficult to figure. Milk paint is water-based so should be easy to wipe. A lot of the wiping is technique. Trying not to drag product out of the grain. Try #3 but vary your squeegeeing out of line with the grain. In line lets it pull. If the gel had any aggressive solvents like alcohol, toluene, xylene, etc. then it will burn through shellac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Check the MSDS if the label doesn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I bet that refining what you did to achieve #3 will help. What would you improve on what you're seeing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 The gel stain is oil based so that's probably the issue I am having with it. #3 is really really close to what I was trying to achieve I just wish that I didn't lose some of the depth of the black by using the white over it. It kind of made the black look a bit more grey after applying the white. I am doing another piece now that I did 2 coats of shellac instead of 1 and I will try to work against the grain this time, last time I worked with the grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5itim Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I tried doing the white over black again and there was so much white on the black I had to sand it down and ended up sanding thru the black, this is extremely hard and frustrating I sanded the purple down and did green over it. This one turned out pretty cool I think! I think the best bet I can do here until I get better at using black as the main color is to stick with with light colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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