want to get feet wet... looking for recommendations

[mistermikev]

27 minutes ago, curtisa said:

That's a pretty big step up from what you were considering earlier. Do you need the 4th rotary axis? I suppose you could use one to carve the back of a neck, but it's not a mandatory requirement and adds a lot more complexity to the mix (and an extra chunk of cash too). The recent changes to the personal-use version of Fusion 360 removes 4th axis support, so unless you want to pay for an additional subsciption to F360 you'd have to hunt for a different CAM software solution to use it.

The spindle will work fine for direct hardwood cutting, but that's taking things well beyond your initial scope of just doing PCBs and templates (if you can directly cut the wood, why would you make a template?). It's also a watercooled spindle, so you'd need to allow for a small pump, a sealed bucket of water and the hoses in your workshop.

Like the 3040 you looked at earlier, it's not clear what the interface is designed to work with. If it's GRBL there's plenty of free/low cost options to go with. If it's Mach you'll need to add the price of a license. As @MiKro suggests, 500 lines of code won't take you very far.

Not trying to push you away from the 6040. It's definitely a machine that would fit 90% of applications you'd encounter building a guitar (save for perhaps a neck-through instrument, a bass neck or really large body shapes), but there's no doubt that it's positioned as an advanced-beginner item.

 

I never found that with mine, but I never expected my unit to be churning out parts on an industrial scale either. It worked for what it was expected to do just fine.

Oh, and on the Fusion 360 changes again - the other thing Autodesk removed from the free version was rapid motions, limiting the fastest travel to the cutting speed. Cutting feedrate when the tool is engaged in the material might be 800mm per minute, but your rapid feedrate when the cutter is retracted from the work is defined by whatever limit you impose on your machine, which could be thousands of mm/min. On a small machine that's not going to translate to any real issue when in use. On a larger machine, if you need to quickly and frequently traverse across a long distance in between cutting motions (say, carving the back of a neck) that's going to add up to a significant chunk of extra time.

thank you for the response.  You've answered a question I had that was afraid to ask and go beyond my question limit (pretty sure I owe several beers already).  So... I don't understand how a 4th axis would impede ones ability to carve.   In theory... if you just had a ton of passes on a neck... you could carve it no?  It would be a bit more rough?  I could live with that... but it's really only going to save me about $60.  I don't get how it works. 

many good points you make.  what got me going in this direction is the idea that the controller would likely need to be upgraded.  and I was thinking... I wouldn't want to put money into a 4030 because its not big enough to do some of the stuff I need.  So if I spend a bit more... and maybe it works 'ok' for now... it'd be a machine worth upgrading. 

you went a bit above me on that last part... but then brought it down to my level at the end.  I appreciate that.  I'm not really concerned about speed at all.  not going to be cranking out anything... just more interested in cutting out the parts that I don't really enjoy.  working with mdf - even with a mask on... drives my sinus up a wall.  I'd like to ideally hook a vacuum to this and possibly put it inside a box.  there are also some things I'd like to be able to do that are difficult... ie do a 20" radius that blends to a 30" radius.  I could do that by making both radius by hand, then mounting them together, and using a number of bearings... but it'd be really nice to be able to do it on cnc.

I'm glad to hear your feedback on controller.  it might be that the guys over at cnczone are trying to go fast.  I understand that is one of the benefit of upgrading the controller but I'd rather not ever have to do that as speed isn't going to be a goal.

afa templates... well I figure that is 2d and as such that is going to be the majority of what I do at first... cause it's simple.  perhaps down the road it'd be nice to carve a neck and match a specific profile... but it's going to be 6mo to 1yr before I'll have my head out of my arse enough to try that.

 

from what I can see... for what I'm willing to spend... I don't see anything that'd suit my needs better than this.

 

afa mach3... this one doesn't say but all the others come with trial version of mach3... so I'm guessing mach3?  do these things only work with one version of cad?  sorry... i have so many stupid questions - and you and micro have been champs about addressing them.  don't know how I can ever thank you enough but I am thankful!!!!!

[MiKro]

Mach3 is the software that controls the motion of the CNC. the Cad software is used to design the 2d lines that the CNC will eventually cut out using G-code. The CAM part of the software is where the magic of lines to g-code conversion happens based on the post processor used. If you will be using Mach3, then you choose the appropriate Post Processor for mach3. which ever yuo are setup as , maybe in MM or in imperial inches.. That will make a file that contains the G-code. this in turn is used by Mach3 to interpret what it is supposed to do in regards to X0, Y0, Z0 . All of these which you will also setup in relation to your machine and what it is you are doing.

MK

[MiKro]

Just now, MiKro said:

Mach3 is the software that controls the motion of the CNC. the Cad software is used to design the 2d lines that the CNC will eventually cut out using G-code. The CAM part of the software is where the magic of lines to g-code conversion happens based on the post processor used. If you will be using Mach3, then you choose the appropriate Post Processor for mach3. which ever yuo are setup as , maybe in MM or in imperial inches.. That will make a file that contains the G-code. this in turn is used by Mach3 to interpret what it is supposed to do in regards to X0, Y0, Z0 . All of these which you will also setup in relation to your machine and what it is you are doing.

3d CAD is where you make the 3d models for carving. here also you use the correct Post Processor. then everything else above applies.

As far as a 4th axis making a neck on it is more trouble due to the extra time and CAD/CAM setup . a 3 axis machine will do everything you need as well as the necks. You have seen the models I design and my neck models as well as some of m guitars and necks I have done on cnc. They all are done with the idea of using only a 3axis machine as that is how I do them as well.

MK

 

[mistermikev]

31 minutes ago, MiKro said:

Mach3 is the software that controls the motion of the CNC. the Cad software is used to design the 2d lines that the CNC will eventually cut out using G-code. The CAM part of the software is where the magic of lines to g-code conversion happens based on the post processor used. If you will be using Mach3, then you choose the appropriate Post Processor for mach3. which ever yuo are setup as , maybe in MM or in imperial inches.. That will make a file that contains the G-code. this in turn is used by Mach3 to interpret what it is supposed to do in regards to X0, Y0, Z0 . All of these which you will also setup in relation to your machine and what it is you are doing.

MK

well... I said cad there but meant cam.  mach3 is cam right?  sorry, still figuring things out.  there are still a few foggy things for me but the one thing I get is that cad is the part where you virtualize your model.  many of the things you said after that are still above me a bit... but I understand you build the model in cad, then toolpaths in cam.  g code, if I understand it... is a bit like machine instruction.  you write programs using things similar to verbiage... but then that is ultimately compiled into simple instructions that are the equiv of g-code.  sort of a list of coordinates in series.

so... it sounds like I don't need the 4-axis... but is there any potential future benefit?  is there any drawback to having it?  to get to the bigger spindle and ball screws on all axis I have to spend a grand... so another $60 for the 4th axis.  still don't really understand how it works... in laymen terms... it changes the angle of the bit so it leaves less tool lines?

[MiKro]

3 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

well... I said cad there but meant cam.  mach3 is cam right?  sorry, still figuring things out.  there are still a few foggy things for me but the one thing I get is that cad is the part where you virtualize your model.  many of the things you said after that are still above me a bit... but I understand you build the model in cad, then toolpaths in cam.  g code, if I understand it... is a bit like machine instruction.  you write programs using things similar to verbiage... but then that is ultimately compiled into simple instructions that are the equiv of g-code.  sort of a list of coordinates in series.

so... it sounds like I don't need the 4-axis... but is there any potential future benefit?  is there any drawback to having it?  to get to the bigger spindle and ball screws on all axis I have to spend a grand... so another $60 for the 4th axis.  still don't really understand how it works... in laymen terms... it changes the angle of the bit so it leaves less tool lines?

Correct  you do not need a 4th rotational axis. Some machines say they are 4 axis when in reality they use 2 steppers on as a slave drive to operate an axis but sine it uses two physical drives they say it is 4 axis. Not the same thing.

As far as Mach3 it is the controller software not CAM. CAM ( Computer Aided Machining ) is the part that makes the toolpaths and converts CAD drawings, using the PP to make the G-code.

[mistermikev]

Just now, MiKro said:

Correct  you do not need a 4th rotational axis. Some machines say they are 4 axis when in reality they use 2 steppers on as a slave drive to operate an axis but sine it uses two physical drives they say it is 4 axis. Not the same thing.

As far as Mach3 it is the controller software not CAM. CAM ( Computer Aided Machining ) is the part that makes the toolpaths and converts CAD drawings, using the PP to make the G-code.

ok, I guess I know less about cam then I thought!  did not realize I need cam, then mach3. 

so... looking again at the machines... if I go down to the one that is 3 axis they have a parallel port instead of usb... now they give you a para to usb cable... but I suspect direct usb interface would be better future proofing.  so... is there any reason I want to avoid 4th axis if A) only going to save me $60 and B ) going to be a parallel port instead of usb?

also... it sounds like then - any cam software should work with any cnc... but the controller software ie mach3 is going to specific to how the machine is built?

[mistermikev]

so... "Carving Instructions : G code/TAB files/nc file/NCC files" so I assume this means I'll need mach3 no matter what right?

[MiKro]

30 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

so... "Carving Instructions : G code/TAB files/nc file/NCC files" so I assume this means I'll need mach3 no matter what right?

That is the software that runs on the computer to controller the actual CNC

So if that is what is used? Then Yes. Or you could use linux cnc as a controller software on the PC that controls the CNC.

MK

 

[mistermikev]

Just now, MiKro said:

That is the software that runs on the computer to controller the actual CNC

So if that is what is used? Then Yes. Or you could use linux cnc as a controller software on the PC that controls the CNC.

MK

 

roger that.  As I understand the equiv that runs on linux is a little cheaper... but I guess at that point I can just factor in a $175 license for mach3.  I can live with that.  I've done some bash shell and worked with linux quite a bit and have some linux boxes at my work now... but I'd prefer not to have to add that learning curve to the mix.

thank you @Mikro and thank you @Curtisa - for answering me and generally putting up with me.  I appreciate it.

 

I've been looking at some cad tutorials... and man that aspire stuff is pretty cool.  pretty easy to import a bmp and make a cool 3d object.  thanks for pointing me in that direction.

[curtisa]

7 minutes ago, MiKro said:

Or you could use linux cnc as a controller software on the PC that controls the CNC

Not if the controller uses USB. LinuxCNC doesn't support USB connectivity.

Essentially you'll be using Mach 3/4 if the controller hardware supplied with the CNC requires it. If the hardware comes as a GRBL variant you can use any number of open-source/free sofware to control the CNC. The listing for the 6040 doesn't explicitly state what the interfacing software requirements are, so if you choose to go for that one you'll just have to take a punt and deal with whatever it arrives with. Beyond that, you could always gut the control box and retrofit whatever control interface takes your fancy.

The 3018 and WhittleCNC both indicate GRBL is the control method. The 3040 looks like it's Mach 3 only. Based on the similarity between the 3040 and 6040, it's quite likely that it'll be Mach 3 for the 6040 too.

 

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

so... it sounds like I don't need the 4-axis... but is there any potential future benefit?  is there any drawback to having it?  to get to the bigger spindle and ball screws on all axis I have to spend a grand... so another $60 for the 4th axis. 

No real drawback having it. You can always not use it or even bother plugging it in. It's just an extra cost on top of a basic 3 axis machine that likely will not get much use when making a guitar. And if you do decide you have a project that warrants its use, the software requirements to create milling code to take advantage of the 4th axis become trickier to fulfil if you want to keep things open source/free.

 

Quote

still don't really understand how it works... in laymen terms... it changes the angle of the bit so it leaves less tool lines?

Think of it as a bit like a lathe, but instead of endlessly spinning the workpiece around you now have the ability to rotate the work around incrementally and stop/start anywhere you like. In conjunction with the regular 3-axis range of movements, you could then do some advanced 3D carving, like milling out a statue's head from a single block of wood; something that would otherwise be impossible to do on a regular lathe or a normal 3-axis CNC.

 

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

also... it sounds like then - any cam software should work with any cnc... but the controller software ie mach3 is going to specific to how the machine is built?

For the most part, yes.

1. CAD software = design your part, create a 3D model (your pickup template, scratchplate template, PCB layout etc)
2. CAM software = accepts the model/drawing created in CAD and works out how to remove material from the blank chunk of wood/plastic/MDF/cheese to realise the part you've just designed. Spits out the necessary commands that can be sent to the CNC as a string of semi-humanoid textual commands (G-code).
3. Control software = takes the G-code file from the CAM software and feeds it to the machine line by line. The CNC then does exactly what it's told to do and gives you a great big pile of dust and (hopefully) the part you wanted. Generally this bit is proprietary - Mach cannot talk to GRBL hardware, LinuxCNC cannot talk to Mach hardware through USB, GRBL cannot talk to anything with a parallel port etc

Software like Fusion 360, Rhino and FreeCAD integrate items 1 and 2 within the same package. Sometimes the CAD and CAM is separated and the design/3D model must be passed down the chain so that each bit of software can do its magic on it.

Item 3 is invariably a standalone bit of software. I don't know of anything that integrates the whole chain in one application.

[mistermikev]

Just now, curtisa said:

Not if the controller uses USB. LinuxCNC doesn't support USB connectivity.

Essentially you'll be using Mach 3/4 if the controller hardware supplied with the CNC requires it. If the hardware comes as a GRBL variant you can use any number of open-source/free sofware to control the CNC. The listing for the 6040 doesn't explicitly state what the interfacing software requirements are, so if you choose to go for that one you'll just have to take a punt and deal with whatever it arrives with. Beyond that, you could always gut the control box and retrofit whatever control interface takes your fancy.

The 3018 and WhittleCNC both indicate GRBL is the control method. The 3040 looks like it's Mach 3 only. Based on the similarity between the 3040 and 6040, it's quite likely that it'll be Mach 3 for the 6040 too.

 

No real drawback having it. You can always not use it or even bother plugging it in. It's just an extra cost on top of a basic 3 axis machine that likely will not get much use when making a guitar. And if you do decide you have a project that warrants its use, the software requirements to create milling code to take advantage of the 4th axis become trickier to fulfil if you want to keep things open source/free.

 

Think of it as a bit like a lathe, but instead of endlessly spinning the workpiece around you now have the ability to rotate the work around incrementally and stop/start anywhere you like. In conjunction with the regular 3-axis range of movements, you could then do some advanced 3D carving, like milling out a statue's head from a single block of wood; something that would otherwise be impossible to do on a regular lathe or a normal 3-axis CNC.

 

For the most part, yes.

1. CAD software = design your part, create a 3D model (your pickup template, scratchplate template, PCB layout etc)
2. CAM software = accepts the model/drawing created in CAD and works out how to remove material from the blank chunk of wood/plastic/MDF/cheese to realise the part you've just designed. Spits out the necessary commands that can be sent to the CNC as a string of semi-humanoid textual commands (G-code).
3. Control software = takes the G-code file from the CAM software and feeds it to the machine line by line. The CNC then does exactly what it's told to do and gives you a great big pile of dust and (hopefully) the part you wanted. Generally this bit is proprietary - Mach cannot talk to GRBL hardware, LinuxCNC cannot talk to Mach hardware through USB, GRBL cannot talk to anything with a parallel port etc

Software like Fusion 360, Rhino and FreeCAD integrate items 1 and 2 within the same package. Sometimes the CAD and CAM is separated and the design/3D model must be passed down the chain so that each bit of software can do its magic on it.

Item 3 is invariably a standalone bit of software. I don't know of anything that integrates the whole chain in one application.

right on.  that's an easy to follow description - thank you for that. 

4th axis... also a good description.  I saw the piece they label 4th axis and was wondering "is that the thing where they spin the item and the cnc stays stationary".  I've seen some videos where they do that.  Doubt I'll ever use it but... when I looked again it was actually a dif of $40 and it seems like usb would be better for windows so... went with that one. 

I've got a lot of wood-shedding to do now!!  Thank you both so much!  I suspect it's going to be a lot of frustration for forseable future but at some point that is going to blossom into a lot of fun!

[mistermikev]

so... yesterday I rebuilt a new cheap laptop that I bought and in the process had to learn about rufus and how to make a bootable usb thumbdrive (believe it or not I've never done this). 

assembled my cnc machine having read lots and lots of threads about them.  I installed the mach3 version I got with the machine and got the drivers setup.  did some testing of manual movements of all the axis, but was unable to figure out how to get the spindle to fire up.  And more reading about folks with similar problems and getting nowhere.  Then this morning I got up at 3am unable to move on with life w/o a moving spindle... went to the garage, guessed at some things in mach3... and turned on my spindle for the first time.  oh, joy.

I have so many questions but I'll spare the world in favor of guessing and reading and just trying to get on.

on the design side... starting to figure out some things, but a long way to go yet. here is a graphical representation of where I am at there:

 

I guess I'm at a point where I really need to decide if I'm going to go back to working on templates or go fwd to working on a guitar.  if the latter, I need to change this to a top/bottom version and move appropriate sections accordingly.  No idea what this router can do in terms of cutting through oak/pupleheart... but I will tell you that with the closed coolant loop running and cranking up to max speed... quiet as a mouse.  Anywho, any feedback/encouragement/berating/tom-foolery/unrelated conversation/horoscopes welcome.

[Bizman62]

I've made more than one bootable USB stick but I know absolutely nothing about how they could carve guitars for me! Back in the day I could code a biorhythm calculator but that was loooong ago. I found one on the Interwebs, though. It can tell you when you're at your best to grasp tasks like this!

And there's still a fish in my eyes when I look at that guitar - referring to your comment in another thread, aren't all asymmetric two horn solidbodies Strats???

[RonMay]

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

so... yesterday I rebuilt a new cheap laptop that I bought and in the process had to learn about rufus and how to make a bootable usb thumbdrive (believe it or not I've never done this). 

assembled my cnc machine having read lots and lots of threads about them.  I installed the mach3 version I got with the machine and got the drivers setup.  did some testing of manual movements of all the axis, but was unable to figure out how to get the spindle to fire up.  And more reading about folks with similar problems and getting nowhere.  Then this morning I got up at 3am unable to move on with life w/o a moving spindle... went to the garage, guessed at some things in mach3... and turned on my spindle for the first time.  oh, joy.

I have so many questions but I'll spare the world in favor of guessing and reading and just trying to get on.

on the design side... starting to figure out some things, but a long way to go yet. here is a graphical representation of where I am at there:

 

I guess I'm at a point where I really need to decide if I'm going to go back to working on templates or go fwd to working on a guitar.  if the latter, I need to change this to a top/bottom version and move appropriate sections accordingly.  No idea what this router can do in terms of cutting through oak/pupleheart... but I will tell you that with the closed coolant loop running and cranking up to max speed... quiet as a mouse.  Anywho, any feedback/encouragement/berating/tom-foolery/unrelated conversation/horoscopes welcome.

It looks like you channeled Salvador Dali to help with this design. I really like it. I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going.

 

Ron

[mistermikev]

5 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I've made more than one bootable USB stick but I know absolutely nothing about how they could carve guitars for me! Back in the day I could code a biorhythm calculator but that was loooong ago. I found one on the Interwebs, though. It can tell you when you're at your best to grasp tasks like this!

And there's still a fish in my eyes when I look at that guitar - referring to your comment in another thread, aren't all asymmetric two horn solidbodies Strats???

hehe this IS a strat... why would you think I didn't Know that?  I knew that!

Just now, RonMay said:

It looks like you channeled Salvador Dali to help with this design. I really like it. I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going.

 

Ron

no channeling of dali... channeling of rainbow bass... which in turn my have been channeled via dali.  hehe

[curtisa]

Welcome to the dark side.

 

[mistermikev]

20 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Welcome to the dark side.

 

hehe tru dat.  I hope this is going to really allow me to raise my abilities as being able to see a 3d model... and further being able to easily cut a body out of pink hard foam insulation... would seem like great ways to get a handle on what you are building before you build it.

[mistermikev]

well... still kicking me in the head but... feels almost like progress...

[mistermikev]

so... just a quick question for the cnc gods... do you trust your red stop button?  it would seem to me that this is the equivalent of trusting your on/off switch on your hand router (ok, well with cnc you'd have to untwist the switch and then actually hit reset and then hit go, so maybe not equiv). 

My gut is telling me I shouldn't change a bit unless the machine is at least powered down, if not unplugged physically... but my other gut is telling me that it is unlikely that folks would actually go through that in the real world... for every change of bit.  So, fully acknowledging that you are not responsible for my receipt of this knowledge - do you trust your red button?

if you don't... a follow up question: I'm assuming that as long as I don't turn off mach3 session... when I turn the power back on is there any chance of the machine losing its place in terms of proximity to xy zero? ( @curtisa @MiKro ?)

 

doh, everything was going so good!!! so I setup a job to make a spoilboard.  transfered it to machine.  imported the first part of the jobs and got the demo version alert re 500 lines.  zeroed out to my ctr point... ran the job and all went swimingly.  So I bought a mach3 license... didn't want to reinstall mach3 cause I just got my setting set up so... copied in the .dat file... now xy axis will not move.  z axis works fine.  motors scream if I try to jog any direction... and I had just jogged it literally 20 seconds before.  I shutdown mach3, loaded .dat file... started back up... now I can't move.  would seem ulikely there would be a "make my moters scream but don't move" button turned on... stumped.

it's like a rolla coasta in here today!  so... replaced the mach3 xml file and suddently all is ok.  so there must be a 'mach my motor cry but don't move' feature that I somehow turned on.  anywho... back in biz.

[MiKro]

As far as the estop button, you twist it to unlock i and make it ready. Once like that all you have to do is press it and everything stops. In order start again you will need to untwist it it again.

As far as x and y moving yes and no. If you save the session when you leave

 mAch it should still be like it was. But the steppers are no longer under power so they may have moved some..MK

 

[mistermikev]

Just now, MiKro said:

As far as the estop button, you twist it to unlock i and make it ready. Once like that all you have to do is press it and everything stops. In order start again you will need to untwist it it again.

MK

hehe, well I know THAT part silly!!  I was more concerned with the reliability of said switch.  It's not killing power to the controller... so in theory it is at least possible the mechanism fails.  If that were to happen while I was gently carressing the bit (as I often do... digression - new movie - romancing the bit... story at 11) it could be dangerous.  Perhaps I'm over thinking it.  sounds like you trust the red button to prevent your spindle from turning.

[MiKro]

23 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

hehe, well I know THAT part silly!!  I was more concerned with the reliability of said switch.  It's not killing power to the controller... so in theory it is at least possible the mechanism fails.  If that were to happen while I was gently carressing the bit (as I often do... digression - new movie - romancing the bit... story at 11) it could be dangerous.  Perhaps I'm over thinking it.  sounds like you trust the red button to prevent your spindle from turning.

I don't think I have ever used mine?

[mistermikev]

Just now, MiKro said:

I don't think I have ever used mine?

like... you've never used yours because you just go change the tool, or you've never used your because you always unplug the machine before you change the tool?

[MiKro]

26 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

like... you've never used yours because you just go change the tool, or you've never used your because you always unplug the machine before you change the tool?

I have never used mine. Have never had a need to use it? In fact I did not even have one until a few years ago. 

I just changed the tool when I had a router instead of a spindle as I turned off the router, other than that, now with my spindle controlled by Mach I just change the tool. when it is time.

MK

[mistermikev]

16 minutes ago, MiKro said:

I have never used mine. Have never had a need to use it? In fact I did not even have one until a few years ago. 

I just changed the tool when I had a router instead of a spindle as I turned off the router, other than that, now with my spindle controlled by Mach I just change the tool. when it is time.

MK

ah, yes, I 'spose if you had a reg router you'd just hit the switch or unplug that as opposed to the machine, makes sense.  I appreciate your answer and thank you very much for the response!