Crusader Posted June 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 Cool thanks for that Funny he marks the bridge both sides of the string, just the same as I do! Something of interest, I know they set the bridge at the middle of the f-holes. Now my guitar is copied from an ES-137 which is more of an electric guitar, while for example the ES-175 is more of an accoustic. And have you ever noticed he difference between them? The ES-175 has only 20 frets, and joins the body at the 14th fret, which means the bridge is set further back and is - guess what? at the middle of the f-holes same as a violin. So my guitar being copied from the ES-137 with the bridge set further forward may present a problem with positioning a sound post. The optimal position might be further back than the bridge So many problems!!!! but lol its all fun and games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Crusader said: Now my guitar is copied from an ES-137 which is more of an electric guitar, while for example the ES-175 is more of an accoustic. Yet your 137 doesn't have the supporting center block... That and the bridge not being located at the middle of the f-holes may be the root of your problems. I guess the shape of the f-holes doesn't matter that much, the notch may be there just for easy locating the bridge. The more important thing is that when the pressure of the bridge is roughly at the centre of the f-holes both vertically and horizontally, the arched top acts like a spring or rather a trampoline mat stretched between strings, spreading the pressure evenly all across the top. Heck, even the shape and direction of the f-holes may matter more than we think! On violins they're wider and longer on the lower bout, even the end holes are bigger there. I wonder if someone ever has made a scientific study about how the f-holes actually work! Are they actually designed to add directional flexibility to the top rather than just letting sound out like the round hole on an acoustic guitar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted June 8, 2020 Report Share Posted June 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Are they actually designed to add directional flexibility to the top rather than just letting sound out like the round hole on an acoustic guitar? Yes, at least according to the book I got about building mandolins. The placement for the bridge to be in the center is for the reason you describe. It didn't say the shape was particularly important, other that aesthetically, but the size of the open area is important to the tone. It had me start out with fairly tight holes and then open them up to deepen the tap tone response. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Yet your 137 doesn't have the supporting center block... Yes exactly. I wish I had noticed the difference between the 137 and 175 before I started building. A bit of a blunder considering I wanted this guitar to be more accoustic. The Gibson Citation also connects at the 14th fret and I didn't notice this while I was studying the headstock LOL The thing I'm talking about is deep science involving the Chladni patterns of guitar plates and the nodal lines which are talked about in this article https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/guitars/electric.html which states "There are two nodal lines (places where the guitar does not move) - one is near the free end of the neck, and the other is close to the middle of the body" Perhaps the centre block on the 137 shifts the nodal line but mine does not have it, although the top is solid 15mm thick down the centre to the tailpiece. Who knows what effect this has! But truth be told it sounds pretty good the way it is. With the block under the bridge at first it sounded a bit muffled but I don't notice it any more. If it sounded this good without all these "problems" I would be very happy! Although if it still bothers me I could try using a trapeze tailpiece instead of the stop-bar All is good, I have some doors to fit. Life goes on! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 9, 2020 Report Share Posted June 9, 2020 Thanks @ScottR, this could lead to a couple of pages of pondering but suffice to say your comment reminded me of a crude way to "fix" split cymbals by drilling a hole at the end and widening the crack so the sides of it don't rattle against each other. Being able to compare the Chladni patterns of @Crusader's guitar and both 137 and 175 would be interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Being able to compare the Chladni patterns of @Crusader's guitar and both 137 and 175 would be interesting! Yes that would be amusing LOL, but I might be better off not knowing. Ignorance is bliss! Here is an article that shows the history of violin f-holes http://www.openculture.com/2016/01/why-violins-have-f-holes-the-science-history-of-a-remarkable-renaissance-design.html The evolutionary path of this elegant innovation—Clive Thompson at Boing Boing demonstrates with a color-coded chart—takes us from those original round holes, to a half-moon, then to variously-elaborated c-shapes, and finally to the f-hole. That slow historical development casts doubt on the theory in the above video, which argues that the 16th-century Amati family of violin makers arrived at the shape by peeling a clementine, perhaps, and placing flat the surface area of the sphere. But it's an intriguing possibility nonetheless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Crusader Posted June 11, 2020 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 I've done some experimenting and I tried the bridge positioned at the tailpiece. The result, still not strong enough This is the first attempt at a 'sound post' and it sounded a bit muffled I tried a few different ideas for the Sound Post. The round one was poking a hole in the back, so I quickly ditched that idea The third one, quite by accident I made it wedge shaped and I positioned it like so; It gave me a better sound A view of both the saddle and the post: Made me decide to switch it around At this point I installed the Trapeze Tailpiece At the same time I turned the post around so its slightly behind the bridge So now I'm getting a much better sound and I don't know if its because of the Trapeze Tailpiece or the sound post positioning or both At first I wasn't in favour of a Sound Post because I read that they dampen vibrations but since then I've read good reports of guitars that are made with them, and mine sounds totally fine. So thank you Bizman for suggesting it. I might not have tried it otherwise Its amazing what you can do by sticking an iPhone through an f-hole 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Gotta love your documentary photos with the explanatory tags! If you weren't already happy with the result I would have suggested making the soundpost thinner at the waist - a large foot against the bottom to spread the pressure and the top just large enough....The drawing tells it better although the lines are exaggerated: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Bizman62 said: If you weren't already happy with the result I would have suggested making the soundpost thinner at the waist... Excellent idea I will make that my next task 5 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Gotta love your documentary photos with the explanatory tags! LOL yeah I've made it a rule because when I look at old photos I often have no idea what I was doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) With things turning out okay with this guitar (just thought I'd mention) the top is very thin, and a couple of areas are all bent out of shape like a Satriani solo and might not stand up to strumming with my Jim Dunlop 1.5mm plectrum! Edited June 11, 2020 by Crusader grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2020 Update on progress Although the sound post idea is a success, I also strengthened the top with one of the methods I previously had in mind. This has had some very interesting outcomes. First some photos Here we see the end of the neck joining underneath the top. This is the joint that gave way when I heard the loud "crack" and that little joint was stopping the top from caving in under pressure of the strings. So I thought if I strengthen that area the top will be strong enough. It really did the job, I'm amazed at how strong the top is now and the Sound post is now optional So now I don't need the Sound post for strength but it brightens up the tone, very interesting! Its too boomy without it. So I did more experimenting with and without the post and although the tone is too boomy without it, I quite like the bass in the low E. And I got to thinking why do violins have the post only under the high E? I put the round post under the 1st and 2nd string and the result is a brighter tone in the high notes and more bass in the low end. However its still a bit boomy so I want to experiment more and try a post that goes under strings 1 to 4 By the way who laughed when I said "I heard a loud "Crack"? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted June 15, 2020 Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 6 hours ago, Crusader said: By the way who laughed when I said "I heard a loud "Crack"? Not me. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2020 10 hours ago, ScottR said: Not me. SR Well the people I know would have cracked up LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 Well here's another one of the crazy things I do, trying to find the Nodal Line on an accoustic is pretty hard so I resorted to this and it seemed to work, and it just confirmed where I thought it was from tapping. And its right where I need it to be, just behind the bridge! - errr, that's if I have it all figured out correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 Tapping is a common high end way to "tune" the bracing of acoustic instruments and for what I've seen it's done by ear. Susie Gardener experimented with the Chladni patterns for her acoustic, using a balanced bed over a big monitor loudspeaker. Obviously that can't be done on a finished instrument, also you can't exactly tell the effect of gluing the sides and bottom if you're only testing the top. Thus your tapping method should be considered valid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted June 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 Yes tapping and tuning tops is a whole different level beyond me! I really have no idea what I'm doing, just experimenting and taking notes When you said "balancing bed" it reminded me of this, my "Over-sized Les Paul" a couple of years ago. I found this method quite hard because you have to also get the neck supported in the right place. The object here was to determine the body nodal line but I also took note of the "tap-tone" frequency - not to be confused with the resonant frequency of the chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Crusader Posted July 15, 2020 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 This thing is just about polished off, I just need to figure out where to keep the battery and install the controls for the piezo A few pictures. By the way I've reduced them 30% and hope they're interesting Ground rules, most important things first I used heat-shrink to pull the switch through, comes in handy for all sorts of reasons! One of these is a Gibson. You should be able to tell which one but not bad hey? The art of photography is something not to be scoffed at. Its quite a challenge to capture the chatoyance on 2D Under a different light You're so beautiful I want you back Who wants a chip? Up North there's a big hill called "Mt Nameless" I've been thinking its not a bad name for a guitar... Hope you all like the piccies and if you want to make a comment, go a head 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 makes me want to play some George Thorogood (I am aware he plays a white falcon). very nice looking git fiddle. Excellent work. "... came in last night about a half past ten, that baby of mine she wouldn't let me in..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Crusader said: One of these is a Gibson. You should be able to tell which one but not bad hey? Not me. Very fine work sir. A hell of a fight it gave you too! And that back is gorgeous! SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 12 hours ago, Crusader said: One of these is a Gibson. You should be able to tell which one but not bad hey? I can... But without the wormhole my guess would have been wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted July 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Thank you everyone for your likes and compliments, but hey what about my jokes? eg. "Who wants a chip?" ...now back to serious Its funny how things turn out for the better, for example my pickup choice and available parts. I decided this unit is not going to be top shelf so I kept the Seth Lovers in their box and used a '59 and a JB which have been waiting patiently since the '90s. Then I went through all the pickup rings I have and it had to be the cream ones because they're the ones I used to drill the holes with. No worries then I decided to have a switch ring. I had a black one and a cream one, so cream got the nod. Then a switch knob - I only had black. And then of course I only had black control knobs! Then when I was all done I looked at it and realised - - - its perfect! Everything is black and cream, even the headstock IT WAS MEANT TO BE! THE NECK I love the neck on this guitar. It has the exact profile of my '59 Reissue Les Paul and its the first one I've done binding on from scratch. Its also the first guitar I've polished and the neck feels so good to play on TONE (and I'm not talking about DiNozzo) It would have been nice to still have the Gibson ES-137 but life goes on. I mentioned earlier that this guitar has a nasal tone that all my guitars seem to have but even my R9 has a hint of it. So tone is a funny guy and you think he's an idiot then he comes out with wit or courage that surprises us all. To my ear this guitar sounds better than the Gibson 137 that I had, which was made entirely of maple, with a mahogany centre block and it had a kind of "dark" tone that I always thought was due to the maple...I dunno Reading comments (somewhere) about the Gibson 137 there was one person who asked "why don't they make a mahogany version?" which where my thoughts too, so here ya go I've done it BATTERY STRIFE I don't know where to put the battery for the piezo pickup. On the previous one I had to take out the bridge pickup to change the battery but this one I want to figure out a way to have it accessible through the f-holes somehow At first I wasn't impressed with the sound of the piezo but after a few comparisons and tone adjustments I think its fine and does a fine impersonation of an accoustic guitar SWEET ACTION Everybody needs satisfaction guaranteed, everybody wants a piece of the Action. I haven't dressed the frets at all on this and the action is very playable, not far off my R9. The Intonation is good too. Usually you ping the harmonic at the 12th fret then compare it to the played note but when using the 18th rule you need a good tuner The intonation starts off good, then as you go up the fretboard it gets lower, then comes up again above the 12th fret and is correct again at some point. And on this guitar all the strings intonate at around the 16th fret. So I don't need to do much filing on the saddle, but I want to get the action a little lower before I start that PLAYABILITY The neck sticks way out on guitars with this body shape and its been quite a while since I sold my Gibson 137, so I'm not used to it and going through a "re-adjustment" stage. Haven't played on 11-52 gauge strings for a while either And in case anyone remembers, that patch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 I love that trussrod access plug detail It's those kinds of small areas of detail that add so much to the overall vibe of a good build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Crusader said: "Who wants a chip?" 2 hours ago, Crusader said: everybody wants a piece of the Action. 2 hours ago, Crusader said: And in case anyone remembers, that patch I didn't and was admiring the wood in that shot,then looked back up and read that line. I could see it that point, but at first I just passed it by thinking it was a shift in figure and chatoyance. Well done. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said: I love that trussrod access plug detail It's those kinds of small areas of detail that add so much to the overall vibe of a good build. Thanks yes I had a Strat when I started making guitars and copied that as best I could. Later I had a Gibson SG but I think the way they do it is too weak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Just thought I'd share this one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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