Prostheta Posted June 6, 2022 Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 Like I said....I've never worked with stacked buckers, but clearly they work....for some reason we've yet to divine Crazy how far from the Tele mould this is, yet still absolutely parallel to it. Very cool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Prostheta said: Like I said....I've never worked with stacked buckers, but clearly they work....for some reason we've yet to divine Crazy how far from the Tele mould this is, yet still absolutely parallel to it. Very cool. I like to think "as different as I am" - hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 so if I may... I posted this guitar on a number of sights. always interested in potentially learning something or seeing it from the outside in. overwhelming positive response but I believe there is probably something to learn from the one semi-negative response I got... perhaps. "Wood grain on the back looks like a less than expensive piece of wood." so, have to at least ask myself - is there something to this? On the one hand... looking at the ash I used... in his defense... it is just plain old ash... not anything fancy like if I went out and overpaid for 'swamp ash'. It is def not "paint grade". Is it a "choice" piece of ash... well it's def good 'nuff for me... but I have to wonder what a more expensive piece of ash would "look" like. I guess if I had my choice of ten boards... I would go for something with really tight grain lines everywhere with little to no runout. At the place I would buy this ash... it'd be the exact sm price. That said finding some w/o any heartwood or other blemishes is def more difficult. so my question is... what is your interpretation (trying not to just dismiss him) of what expensive ash looks like (short of building the guitar from tamo ash!)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVA Posted June 6, 2022 Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 1 hour ago, mistermikev said: so if I may... I posted this guitar on a number of sights. always interested in potentially learning something or seeing it from the outside in. overwhelming positive response but I believe there is probably something to learn from the one semi-negative response I got... perhaps. "Wood grain on the back looks like a less than expensive piece of wood." so, have to at least ask myself - is there something to this? On the one hand... looking at the ash I used... in his defense... it is just plain old ash... not anything fancy like if I went out and overpaid for 'swamp ash'. It is def not "paint grade". Is it a "choice" piece of ash... well it's def good 'nuff for me... but I have to wonder what a more expensive piece of ash would "look" like. I guess if I had my choice of ten boards... I would go for something with really tight grain lines everywhere with little to no runout. At the place I would buy this ash... it'd be the exact sm price. That said finding some w/o any heartwood or other blemishes is def more difficult. so my question is... what is your interpretation (trying not to just dismiss him) of what expensive ash looks like (short of building the guitar from tamo ash!)? This is highly subjective. You picked a wonderful piece of ash, but the masses generally are not "wowed" by ash IMHO. I think it is an irrelevancy with nothing to be learned unless you are evaluating marketability. I would note that PRS does sell "swamp ash" guitars that are quite popular. They often look like this, with "rings" and curves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, RVA said: This is highly subjective. You picked a wonderful piece of ash, but the masses generally are not "wowed" by ash IMHO. I think it is an irrelevancy with nothing to be learned unless you are evaluating marketability. I would note that PRS does sell "swamp ash" guitars that are quite popular. They often look like this, with "rings" and curves thank you very much for the reply! well... afa I know there is nothing about any ash that would tell you it's swamp ash just by looking at it. by definition... swamp ash is just any variety of ash that happens to be light weight. In truth that'd be pretty rare in white ash... but not impossible, or so I've read. what my eyes are latching on to there in that prs... is the bookmatching. I think this makes a good point altho perhaps unintended... if I had some 16/4 ash... bookmatching it is a great way to make it asym and look fantastic. In case of this prs I suspect that's just a top... which makes it much less 'astounding'. I'd like to see the back of it! I will take that away from this on thing tho... perhaps I should have added an ash veneer on the backside of this guitar. Thinking of it now it's like "why the heck didn't I think of that? despite all odds... I have learned something. Thank you RVA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVA Posted June 6, 2022 Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, mistermikev said: thank you very much for the reply! well... afa I know there is nothing about any ash that would tell you it's swamp ash just by looking at it. by definition... swamp ash is just any variety of ash that happens to be light weight. In truth that'd be pretty rare in white ash... but not impossible, or so I've read. what my eyes are latching on to there in that prs... is the bookmatching. I think this makes a good point altho perhaps unintended... if I had some 16/4 ash... bookmatching it is a great way to make it asym and look fantastic. In case of this prs I suspect that's just a top... which makes it much less 'astounding'. I'd like to see the back of it! I will take that away from this on thing tho... perhaps I should have added an ash veneer on the backside of this guitar. Thinking of it now it's like "why the heck didn't I think of that? despite all odds... I have learned something. Thank you RVA. They are usually solid ash (see links below). I though about the book matching aspect when I posted the pic, then I thought how sad it is that a solid piece would be less attractive to some. The links below are one piece https://reverb.com/item/54405863-prs-swamp-ash-special-2002-one-piece-swamp-ash-body-maple-fretboard-moon-inlays-turquoise-prs-case https://reverb.com/item/1272058-prs-swamp-ash-special-paul-reed-smith-usa-sas-with-hardcase-and-tags Edited June 6, 2022 by RVA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, RVA said: They are usually solid ash (see links below). I though about the book matching aspect when I posted the pic, then I thought how sad it is that a solid piece would be less attractive to some. The links below are one piece https://reverb.com/item/54405863-prs-swamp-ash-special-2002-one-piece-swamp-ash-body-maple-fretboard-moon-inlays-turquoise-prs-case https://reverb.com/item/1272058-prs-swamp-ash-special-paul-reed-smith-usa-sas-with-hardcase-and-tags are you positive that by "one piece" they mean the body and the top are all one continuous piece... or rather that there is a one piece top on a one piece body? Not saying it's impossible... but the front side has very dif pattern than back. there are a couple of picks there were it really looks like the grain isn't continuing on to the side... I could be wrong... and perhaps it doesn't matter. More importantly... I don't see anything in that ash that would suggest that it's necc high quality. the back side of that blue one - now that's a good piece. very tight grain, no runout... but the top has runout all over the place and imo really isn't attractive enough to be a top. i say this all as a statement... but really hoping someone could correct me and teach me how to locate swamp ash just by looking at it! that would be a valuable skill! attractive... I have some really nice one piece stock... and can appreciate that... but symmetry... it just is easy on the eye and it's rare to find in a one piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVA Posted June 6, 2022 Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, mistermikev said: are you positive that by "one piece" they mean the body and the top are all one continuous piece... That is my interpretation of the "one piece" designation for the blue one and my experience with PRS. I own 7 and was covetous of many more! I could be wrong on the red one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2022 57 minutes ago, RVA said: That is my interpretation of the "one piece" designation for the blue one and my experience with PRS. I own 7 and was covetous of many more! I could be wrong on the red one. roger that. I believe you... just was surprised as I think that'd take some 10/4 stock... 14" wide... yeah, that'd be pretty rare. thanks again for the replies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 For what it's worth I've often wondered why the bottoms rarely seem to be bookmatched or even closely so. Of course in two piece bodies without a separate top only one face can be bookmatched and in that case it'd be the top. But I've seen lots of guitars (or rather pictures) with very unmatching backs. I can't tell if they've used some very expensive wood there but if one piece is straight and the other curls at a 45 degree angle from the seam... That definitely looks cheap to me! Re this guitar, I think a possible reason for that semi-negative comment is due to the body pieces not being symmetric. The flat part of the bottom looks like one piece but in the cutaway and at the end the grain lines draw a highly visible V-pattern. To me it looks quite nice in the cutaway, but in all honesty the asymmetric end looks a bit less thought of than the rest. Either a two-piece with a center stream or a symmetric three-piece might have looked a bit more refined. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 Bookmatching requires a heavier gauge of stock, at least twice that of the desired workpiece. Bookmatching the back of most instruments would need stock at least four inches thick, which is not a nice job to try and dry reliably. That's without mentioning the higher demands on yield/waste, and that most sawmills won't cut to that sort of gauge without you buying wood by the metric shit tonne (as opposed to an Imperial shit ton). Most wood on the open market is available a couple of inches or 52mm in gauge. Have a look over Novowood's (in Lahti) inventory as that's where I buy most of my Sapele for furniture and architectural. Flitch matching is more than adequate for a non-figured piece of wood where you're not trying to achieve symmetry by specific figuring patterns. Done well, you'd have difficulty telling a bookmatched versus a flitch matched back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 Single-piece bodies are highly dependent on the wood type yielding stable wood over a large width, which is a far less common thing these days. Ash is easily available in wide slabs, but I wouldn't trust it to produce a stable flat workpiece over any sort of width unless it was super wide ring radius from the outside of the tree for flat ring orientation, or a piece that contained the pith dead centre that could be cut out and rejoined for vertical ring orientation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Bizman62 said: For what it's worth I've often wondered why the bottoms rarely seem to be bookmatched or even closely so. Of course in two piece bodies without a separate top only one face can be bookmatched and in that case it'd be the top. But I've seen lots of guitars (or rather pictures) with very unmatching backs. I can't tell if they've used some very expensive wood there but if one piece is straight and the other curls at a 45 degree angle from the seam... That definitely looks cheap to me! Re this guitar, I think a possible reason for that semi-negative comment is due to the body pieces not being symmetric. The flat part of the bottom looks like one piece but in the cutaway and at the end the grain lines draw a highly visible V-pattern. To me it looks quite nice in the cutaway, but in all honesty the asymmetric end looks a bit less thought of than the rest. Either a two-piece with a center stream or a symmetric three-piece might have looked a bit more refined. very good feedback biz. i think the reason you don't see bookmatching on the back is because it would require some extraordinarily thick wood. you'd have to start with 16/4 material in most cases. kevin's was center seam... and looked a bit more bookmatched... but it was just slip matched. something to keep in mind I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 59 minutes ago, Prostheta said: Bookmatching requires a heavier gauge of stock, at least twice that of the desired workpiece. Bookmatching the back of most instruments would need stock at least four inches thick, which is not a nice job to try and dry reliably. That's without mentioning the higher demands on yield/waste, and that most sawmills won't cut to that sort of gauge without you buying wood by the metric shit tonne (as opposed to an Imperial shit ton). Most wood on the open market is available a couple of inches or 52mm in gauge. Have a look over Novowood's (in Lahti) inventory as that's where I buy most of my Sapele for furniture and architectural. Flitch matching is more than adequate for a non-figured piece of wood where you're not trying to achieve symmetry by specific figuring patterns. Done well, you'd have difficulty telling a bookmatched versus a flitch matched back. hehe - get out of my head! absolutely right. pretty rare to see 4" thick ash. metric shit ton... lol... I'm stealing that and it's going on your greatest hits album. i tried to look up novowood but it's not what I expected? flooring? not sure what flitch matching is please explain... I assume that's another term for slip match? 49 minutes ago, Prostheta said: Single-piece bodies are highly dependent on the wood type yielding stable wood over a large width, which is a far less common thing these days. Ash is easily available in wide slabs, but I wouldn't trust it to produce a stable flat workpiece over any sort of width unless it was super wide ring radius from the outside of the tree for flat ring orientation, or a piece that contained the pith dead centre that could be cut out and rejoined for vertical ring orientation. i actually have seen 14" wide 8/4 at my local spot but the grain wasn't all that pretty and passed. it is fairly rare for me... very rare to have good looking stuff that wide. in my case I was more concerned about getting a good 'hide' of the seam which I think I did well... further I have heard arguments that you are better off with (if 2 piece) with one big piece and one small piece as the majority of the body is continuous. I'm not sure that makes a big dif but it was in my head when I did this one. taking away from this to look for much tighter grain next time and to try to do a center seam and perhaps better symetry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 sorry, thank you pros for the feedback! I do appreciate it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 No worries! The link to Novowood was for @Bizman62 even though even I am closer to Novowood/Lahti than he is....looks like a nice drive down highway 6 with his left arm out of the window giving Russia the middle finger for a couple of hours, then more or less the same distance as it takes me from here. https://www.novowood.fi/SAARNI/ekauppa/g201025/?search_group=201025&pageno=0.975 Novowood do actually stock 80mm European Ash, but you'd get a pretty asymmetrical result from bookmatching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, Prostheta said: No worries! The link to Novowood was for @Bizman62 even though even I am closer to Novowood/Lahti than he is....looks like a nice drive down highway 6 with his left arm out of the window giving Russia the middle finger for a couple of hours, then more or less the same distance as it takes me from here. https://www.novowood.fi/SAARNI/ekauppa/g201025/?search_group=201025&pageno=0.975 Novowood do actually stock 80mm European Ash, but you'd get a pretty asymmetrical result from bookmatching. middle finger lol... painted a vivid graphic in my mind. never pass on an opportunity to look at wood so thanks for the link!! their banner gives me goosebumps... so much wood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 Thanks @Prostheta, they seem to have some nice species there for guitar building. I wonder what my wife would say if I bought 1 m3 each... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 If you have to wonder, you have to find out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 I just bought some 5 m3 of alder and aspen but they aren't sawn and dried. She loves it! But I guess the price I paid was much lower than that of Novowood's... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted June 7, 2022 Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 I think this might be my favorite build you've done, Mike! Love the playing too! SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, ScottR said: I think this might be my favorite build you've done, Mike! Love the playing too! SR i guess this means I need to take down my dartboard with your picture on it... as I was severely upset that I didn't hear from you... i can only assume you were being held against your will in some russian goolag... very happy to hear that you managed to escape! hehe thank you scott... between this one and kevins... man it's an even contest for me. i love that flamed fretboard on his and the blue just does it for me... that said... this top/color and the abalone pair nice so... flip a coin. thank you again for the feedback!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted June 8, 2022 Report Share Posted June 8, 2022 2 hours ago, mistermikev said: i guess this means I need to take down my dartboard with your picture on it... as I was severely upset that I didn't hear from you... i can only assume you were being held against your will in some russian goolag... very happy to hear that you managed to escape! hehe thank you scott... between this one and kevins... man it's an even contest for me. i love that flamed fretboard on his and the blue just does it for me... that said... this top/color and the abalone pair nice so... flip a coin. thank you again for the feedback!! So where did you get my picture? I hate having my picture taken.....unless it is totally spontaneous. If I don't know, I don't mind. Seriously, the last 9 months or so have been crazy busy for me. I mostly get time on here by running it in the background at work, and peeking in during periods of boredom. I haven't had any of those for nearly a year and have had weeks pass by without even being online for any reason. This past month month I've been out with a trade show (first one in two years), an unexpected week out recovering from retina surgery and traveling 1700 miles round trip to see me favorite niece get married. Tomorrow it's back to work and try to catch up. I may get back on line this weekend....if I take some time off from carving. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted June 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, ScottR said: So where did you get my picture? I hate having my picture taken.....unless it is totally spontaneous. If I don't know, I don't mind. Seriously, the last 9 months or so have been crazy busy for me. I mostly get time on here by running it in the background at work, and peeking in during periods of boredom. I haven't had any of those for nearly a year and have had weeks pass by without even being online for any reason. This past month month I've been out with a trade show (first one in two years), an unexpected week out recovering from retina surgery and traveling 1700 miles round trip to see me favorite niece get married. Tomorrow it's back to work and try to catch up. I may get back on line this weekend....if I take some time off from carving. SR right on brother well glad to know you can still see... unless of course you are somehow reading this all in brail... no wait I saw your carve so clearly you can see... unless of course you are using the force... are you using the force? hehe, well def notice when yer not around, but I understand the busy thing all too well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 8, 2022 Report Share Posted June 8, 2022 13 hours ago, Bizman62 said: I just bought some 5 m3 of alder and aspen but they aren't sawn and dried. She loves it! But I guess the price I paid was much lower than that of Novowood's... Matchsticks and sauna benches! Of course she'll love it. Aspen and black Alder grow on trees in these parts though, so it's easy to hunt good deals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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