Headstock Tuner Placement - Newbie Question

[KeysNGuitar]

I am a complete newbie to guitar building so I apologize up front.  I have always wanted to build one but never thought I had the skills.  After building my woodworking skills for the last five years and getting some decent tools, I want to give it a go.  I found two different PRS Custom 22 plans that look good but the one with lesser information has the PRS headstock while the one that appears to be very detailed has its own styled headstock (not sure why).  I printed out both headstocks 1:1 but when I place one on top of the other, the tuner placement isn't the same and are actually pretty different.  The headstocks do both line up with the neck drawing perfectly.  So, my question is does the tuner placement have to be in perfect placement or is the real science from the nut to the bridge and the tuners can be moved a bit?

Thank you in advance.  I will likely have more simple questions.

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, KeysNGuitar said:

does the tuner placement have to be in perfect placement or is the real science from the nut to the bridge and the tuners can be moved a bit?

Straight string pull has its benefit as it helps to keep the tuning when bending or dive bombing but it's not crucial. If you look at PRS headstocks the two middle strings are slightly off, in Gibsons all strings are more or less slanted from the string line. Not to mention some Charvels, Jacksons, Kramers etc... Fenders tend to have a straight string pull but I guess some of the benefit is lost with the string trees.

Another thing than string pull direction is that there's several types of tuners. Some require more space than others. I've used the same PRS template for two guitars and the space between tuners on the back side on one is double to the other. Also, if you measure the distance from one string capstan to another, even there's a lot of variation. On my guitars which are either factory made or the headstock tuner hole positioning is copied from an existing model the distance between two poles is between 2.4 to 3.6 cm. Nothing stone carved there!

[Gogzs]

I'd say that it doesn't really matter as long as they sit nicely on the nut and don't jump out of the slot while strumming, but then you could go to extremes to a point where it would begin to matter. But it all boils down to what you want. For example, reverse headstock (tuners facing the floor, and the low e string tuner being the furthest away from the nut) can help with drop tunings, because the low e string is long providing more tension when tuned down. On the other hand it's believed the less there is string on the outer sides of the saddle and the nut, the better the tuning stability. 

But all in all, I think both templates should serve you well, and when you'll be drilling the holes, if you go a mm off the template, as long as the tuners fit, it won't make a noticeable difference. Best'o'luck!

[curtisa]

13 hours ago, Gogzs said:

For example, reverse headstock (tuners facing the floor, and the low e string tuner being the furthest away from the nut) can help with drop tunings, because the low e string is long providing more tension when tuned down.

That's not actually correct. String tension has nothing to do with the overall length of the string. The only things that affect string tension are the mass of the string (gauge), the vibrating length (scale length) and the pitch it is tuned to. Any additional length behind the nut or saddles plays no part in the string tension for a given pitch. If you strung two Strats with the same gauge strings tuned to the same pitches and one neck had a reverse headstock, the tensions of each string would be identical.

You can read more than you care to know about the subject here.

[Andyjr1515]

Hi and welcome!

On 2/15/2021 at 4:51 PM, KeysNGuitar said:

I found two different PRS Custom 22 plans that look good but the one with lesser information has the PRS headstock while the one that appears to be very detailed has its own styled headstock (not sure why)

This is usually because the headstock shape is often covered by the original manufacturers' patents/design registration/trademarks - so whoever drew up the plan was probably being careful not to risk receiving a 'cease and desist' letter from PRS's lawyers

In terms of your general question, yes - there is a lot of leeway in terms of where to position the tuners.  In terms of 'good and bad' then:

- there are some advantages at not having major side angles at the nut, because that can lead to tuning issues, especially if you are an avid string bender

- the longer the distance from the nut is to the tuner, the more liable there is, especially on the upper strings, for 'harping' where that portion is audibly ringing out.  And yes - you can sometimes hear it through the amp (which defies physics a bit.  But on one of my electrics, I used to wrap a velcro cable tie loosely around the strings just behind the nut to stop the harping and then take it off for a slightly different sound for certain numbers)

In both of the above, you can get over the issues - well cut and lubricated nut; string tree; damper strip; etc - and so they are not hard and fast rules as long as the tuner knobs don't clash and the strings don't rub against each other. 

 

[Gogzs]

12 hours ago, curtisa said:

That's not actually correct. String tension has nothing to do with the overall length of the string. The only things that affect string tension are the mass of the string (gauge), the vibrating length (scale length) and the pitch it is tuned to. Any additional length behind the nut or saddles plays no part in the string tension for a given pitch. If you strung two Strats with the same gauge strings tuned to the same pitches and one neck had a reverse headstock, the tensions of each string would be identical.

You can read more than you care to know about the subject here.

Interesting read, thanks for that. My "knowledge" about it came from a guy working in a music store in Stockholm. Was there during my stay in Sth, and went to the store to try as many guitars as possible, to see what in the end I'd like to incorporate in my first build. The guy working in the store was really into the idea, and showed me a few guitars with reverse headstock and explained to me why that is so, and apparently spread disinformation. Never thought about it really, but makes total sense from a physics point of view.

Just to bend my mind a little around this. So the article you linked and what you said made complete sense, and thinking about it now, the only difference in the amount of string behind the nut would make, is the amount of bending needed to get a string pitch up half a step/full step etc. For example, the more string you have behind the nut, the more you'd have to bend the string to get it up half a step, compared to if the tuning peg was right behind the nut. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Cheers!

[curtisa]

Yes - in a sub-article on the same website Liutaio mentions that while the tension doesn't change if the length beyond the nut/saddles increases, the 'stretchiness' of the string may change, which may give rise to the perception that the feel of the string becomes more elastic. He mentions a study done by Bob Benedetto where he constructed several 'necks' of varying scale lengths and overall string lengths, but the results indicated that most people couldn't feel any perceptible difference between the strings with long overhangs and the strings with short overhangs.

I suppose if you had access to two guitars with the same scale length and same strings, one with a roller nut and one with a double-locking Floyd Rose, you could test it for yourself. In theory the guitar with the roller nut should feel more flexible when bending strings than the Floyd, as all the extra string length behind the roller nut becomes part of the overall bit of steel that must stretch when pushed. The Floyd having practically zero extra string length behind the nut should feel stiffer.

[KeysNGuitar]

Wow!!  Thank you all for all the info on my first post.  This was quite helpful.  I am sure I am overthinking everything while trying to start my first guitar build but that is me all over.  :)   I know I will have more.  I will try to look thru past questions first before posting new one.   Again, thank you and happy creating.

[Bizman62]

Just keep asking. I guess quite a few people read old posts unless there's something very specific information. General building questions like to be answered over and over again to stay high up on the list.